33 replies to this topic

[richardya]

Was their relationship or orientation, as portrayed in the TV series, explicitly or implicitly stated in the book. I am reading AFfC and I am not sure I recall it, although nothing seems to contradict it as yet.

[Ironborn Ironman]

It was implied in the books - very subtle. No explicit love scenes like on the HBO series.

[Horza]

Textual evidence.

[Errant Bard]

When you have sentences such as "I'll shove my sword in a place even Renly never found", it strikes me as anything but subtle.

[CrownedStag]

Jamie made me laugh when he said that. The relationship was not explicitly stated in the books as it was in the tv series.

[Laohu]

Although many of these single quips seem to make Renly & Loras' relationship quite clear in their own right, I feel that the sheer number of individual sources make it even more obvious. To make a quick list (just from memory, so I will have missed a few) of people who apparently knew of it, we have:

Stannis Baratheon - and probably Robert
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Garlan Tyrell - and presumably the rest of Loras' immediate family
Gregor Clegane
Jamie Lannister
Oberyn Martell
Even the suspicions of Catelyn Stark and Tyrion Lannister

Renly & Loras' relationship is quite literally common knowledge throughout Westeros when you consider the different regions that the members of this list call home. Even if we were to throw out all of these accounts, you still have the Rainbow Guard. Come on.... Really?

[Horza]

And bizarrely, it's the Rainbow Guard that Martin swears up and down is entirely coincidental...

[Knight of the Old Code]

The subtlety, or not, of the prose is much more intellectually satisfying than the bluntness of the series.

[rezor]

I wonder why Cersei suspected a possible twincest between Loras and Margaery with these rumours going around? Her POV didn't let on, but she must've heard about it from someone, if not a jest of Jamie's. She was close with Varys too, who seems to be the Perez Hilton of Kings Landing.

[atia-]

rezor, on 09 February 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

I wonder why Cersei suspected a possible twincest between Loras and Margaery with these rumours going around? Her POV didn't let on, but she must've heard about it from someone, if not a jest of Jamie's. She was close with Varys too, who seems to be the Perez Hilton of Kings Landing.

I was wondering that too....I was like, Wow, you're way off track here, I think,  Cersei!

[rezor]

Maybe he swings both ways? Cersei certainly does.

[Hedge Lawyer]

Laohu, on 23 November 2011 - 12:18 AM, said:

Although many of these single quips seem to make Renly & Loras' relationship quite clear in their own right, I feel that the sheer number of individual sources make it even more obvious. To make a quick list (just from memory, so I will have missed a few) of people who apparently knew of it, we have:

Stannis Baratheon - and probably Robert
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Garlan Tyrell - and presumably the rest of Loras' immediate family
Gregor Clegane
Jamie Lannister
Oberyn Martell
Even the suspicions of Catelyn Stark and Tyrion Lannister

Renly & Loras' relationship is quite literally common knowledge throughout Westeros when you consider the different regions that the members of this list call home. Even if we were to throw out all of these accounts, you still have the Rainbow Guard. Come on.... Really?

Cersei knew too.  She made multiple snide references about it.  The one I can think of right now was something to "Loras lusts after glory like a real man lusts after women."

[The Last Direwolf]

It was hinted at 'subtly', though it was never explicitly stated. I've always got the impression that Loras was like 100% gay, as he never seems to look at women, whilst Renly was probably bisexual because of what Taena told Cersei about his wedding night.

[Drowsey Dragon]

The rainbow guard was just so subtle, but right in your face. I know Martin denies the connection, but I don't buy it.

[Daena the Defiant]

Drowsey Dragon, on 26 February 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

The rainbow guard was just so subtle, but right in your face. I know Martin denies the connection, but I don't buy it.

Do you think that the Faith is a homosexual institution too? Do you think that the Great Sept of Baelor with its rainbow mosaics and glittering lamps arrayed in the order of the spectrum is a vast monument to Pride!?

Do think that by having the puissant Warriors Sons, the Faith Militant, wear rainbow striped belts, GRRM is suggesting that they are all homosexual couples, a la the sacred Band of Thebes?

Edited by Daena the Defiant, 26 February 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Drowsey Dragon]

Daena the Defiant, on 26 February 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Do you think that the Faith is a homosexual institution too? Do you think that the Great Sept of Baelor with its rainbow mosaics and glittering lamps arrayed in the order of the spectrum is a vast monument to Pride!?

Do think that by having the puissant Warriors Sons, the Faith Militant, wear rainbow striped belts, GRRM is suggesting that they are all homosexual couples, a la the sacred Band of Thebes?

I think that Martin does not have the stones to outright say they're gay, so he resorts to over the top symbolism like the Rainbow Guard. Stannis's maester references Renly's choice of a Rainbow guard with his flamboyance as a child. Just like Loras being nicknamed the Knight of Flowers. The rainbow flag is a well-accepted symbol of LGBT culture in the US.Where there is smoke, there usually is fire.

[Daena the Defiant]

Quote

I think that Martin does not have the stones to outright say they're gay, so he resorts to over the top symbolism like the Rainbow Guard. Stannis's maester references Renly's choice of a Rainbow guard with his flamboyance as a child. Just like Loras being nicknamed the Knight of Flowers. The rainbow flag is a well-accepted symbol of LGBT culture in the US.Where there is smoke, there usually is fire.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, but in Martin world, rainbows are symbol of sanctitiy and holiness. The rainbow is one of the chief symbols of the Faith. It's the Cross, Star of David or Crescent for them. The rainbow is blazoned all over every sept and the members of clergy wear rainbows as braided cords and the Church Knights (Warrior's Sons) wear rainbow striped belts and rainbows on their shields. But to you, as the rainbow is a symbol of the modern LGBT movement, does that mean to you that GRRM is trying to suggest that the Faith as depicted is a homosexual insitituion?

You are saying that because Renly decided to style his Kingsguard in the colors of the dominant religion of his world, which happens to coincide with his stated love of pagaentry and pomp that GRRM was using the Rainbow Guard as an on-the-nose signal to the audience that Renly and Loras were gay. What does the use of the rainbow in the comsology and symbology of the Faith man to you? Every septon is a homsexual and every septa is a lesbian?

The Tyrells have the symbol of the golden rose. The Houses all over the Reach have symbology based upon angriculture and flowers. It makes sense for the daring knight of House Tyrell to be styled "the Knight of Flowers (it would have made more sense for him to be the Knight of Roses, but whatever...). I just don't get why people keep saying that the Rainbow Guard was intentionally meant to be a symbol "The Gay" when GRRM has expressly denied it and the Rainbow is used in other non-homosexual contexts in the same series.

Edited by Daena the Defiant, 26 February 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[Ygrette]

Hm, I'm a bit shy to accredit George Martin the lack of balls when he writes that much about whores, twincest, cocks and a bad guy with Tourette's who keeps saying "fuck me with a spear". But he doesn't have the balls to say they're gay? Uhm. Can't believe that. Whatever his reasons for keeping the relationship up to guesswork and hints, I can't believe he doesn't have the guts to write it out.

I truly appreciate the double play of everybody in Westeros knowing it, but noone actually ever having proof.

Cersei knows for sure, because she didn't want Loras to be Tommen's master of arms who teaches him jousting. Because she was actually worried Tommen might grow close to Loras like Renly and Loras grew close to each other. And I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he's Tyrell. She just isn't comfortable with Tommen becoming even more girlish than she already thinks he is.

I have to admit, when I saw the "knight of roses" at the tournament in the TV shw (before I knew the books) I already had to fight my cliche-o-meter down to not assume he must be at least metrosexual, if not gay. Reminded me a lot of "Prince Charming" in Shrek. But that's just me, I like my men hairy and dirty.

[addie]

Ygrette, on 02 March 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

Cersei knows for sure, because she didn't want Loras to be Tommen's master of arms who teaches him jousting. Because she was actually worried Tommen might grow close to Loras like Renly and Loras grew close to each other. And I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he's Tyrell. She just isn't comfortable with Tommen becoming even more girlish than she already thinks he is.

I don't remember any lines in the book that confirms this. I truly believe here that Cersei just does not want to see Loras' influence grow on Tommen's in the same confuse way she doesn't want the Tyrell's influence to grow in KL.

It is the same reason I believe that makes her think Loras and Margaery have an affair, while she has not a single proof.

I think at that point she is somehow paranoid and starts to see the whole Tyrell family as a treat on her power and is ready to do anything to take them down.

[Ygrette]

I just read the scene, so I remember it quite vividly. I cannot prove it with quotes (reading on a mobile phone because my kindle broke), but it was Lady Taena who said "oh I just had a most wicked thought...", not Cersei. Cersei just tells her to keep it to herself.

Cersei talks about it in the chapter where she finds Tommen and Loras practicing jousting and she mentions it again towards Jaime and teases Jaime with his altered perception of "manhood" when Jaime points out that Loras would be a fitting master of arms. Cersei may be dumb and crazy, but she certainly has a feeling for weird sexual relationships that may be used against people. I think the reason she lets Lady Taena come up with that idea is that it would be a nice rumour to spread in order to damage Margaery's reputation.

I just don't think Cersei actually believes they have a relationship. However, it may be that I've just not read far enough. But that's how I understand her so far.

I actually enjoy reading Cersei's POVs. Not because I like her, but because she's so beautifully despicable and hating her feels even sweeter than before.

EDIT: Just dug something up:
Jaime: "Ser Loras is thrice the man Ser Osmund is."
Cersei: "Your notions of manhood have changed somewhat, brother."
Jaime: "True, Loras des not leer at your teats the way Ser Osmund does, but I hardly think-"

It's not proof, but that's why I assume that both of them know what they're talking about when they doubt Ser Loras' "manhood". Why else would they doubt his manhood? He's an excellent fighter.

Edited by Ygrette, 03 March 2012 - 08:50 AM.