171 replies to this topic

[Sevumar]

thapphires!, on 22 November 2011 - 09:02 PM, said:

I don't understand all The Lord Stark hate. It's better to die with honor than to live without it. It took me three reads to realize that the only reason that Lord Stark didn't detain the lannister bastards was because he promised King Robert on his deathbed that he would protect his kids.

I think there's a tendency on this board to punish some characters, particularly Ned, for their lack of effectiveness.

[Sevumar]

AverageCheese, on 22 November 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

We know that no one has ever mentioned him as a great warrior. Whereas Jaime is often cited as a great warrior. Jaime personally killed several prominent lords in battle. Jaime was a much greater fighter than ned. Its to bad people are too fanboy to acknowledge it.

I'm not saying that Jaime isn't superior in objective skill level, but I think what Barristan says about jousting also applies to melee combat. Ned was primarily a battlefield fighter, where one-on-one confrontations wouldn't have been that common. Most of Jaime's experience seems to be outside of battle.

[mediocre cheese]

Sevumar, on 22 November 2011 - 09:15 PM, said:

I'm not saying that Jaime isn't superior in objective skill level, but I think what Barristan says about jousting also applies to melee combat. Ned was primarily a battlefield fighter, where one-on-one confrontations wouldn't have been that common. Most of Jaime's experience seems to be outside of battle.

Yes ned is a great fighter even though no one in the books ever mention his combat ability, and the only record of a fight he was in is was one where he and his master-at-arms lost to a single man. Whereas Jaime is repeteadly cited as a great warrior, brienne (herself a great fighter) says no one in the land could stand against him, barristan cites him as a great natural swordsmen ect.

[oba]

AverageCheese, on 22 November 2011 - 08:25 PM, said:

Ned wasn't half the fighter jaime was and the tv show was lame in making him such a good swordsmen. Discuss....

Who cares?

[LordBloodraven]

AverageCheese, on 22 November 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

Yes ned is a great fighter even though no one in the books ever mention his combat ability, and the only record of a fight he was in is was one where he and his master-at-arms lost to a single man. Whereas Jaime is repeteadly cited as a great warrior, brienne (herself a great fighter) says no one in the land could stand against him, barristan cites him as a great natural swordsmen ect.

Lord Stark doesn't fight in tournaments because when he fights a man for real, he doesn't want him to know what he can do.
No one is denying that Jaime was a great fighter. What's the point exactly? Ned is a bad swordsman?

[mediocre cheese]

LordBloodraven, on 22 November 2011 - 09:23 PM, said:

Lord Stark doesn't fight in tournaments because when he fights a man for real, he doesn't want him to know what he can do.

That was one of the lamest lines the show added. Oh lets make him such as a badass *groan*. In the book Ned never says anything of the sort, and its utterly absurd. Jousting in a tournament doesn't show what you can do in a battle. The book gave a much better reason for ned not fighting in tournaments, that ned recognized war was not a game, and playing at war was distasteful. Instead the show ignored the moral objections Ned has to tournaments and made it all about how he was too much of a badass for tournaments. It simplified his character and lessened the whole diffference between him and robert and jaime type warriors.

Oh, and I would add that skill in tournaments is directly correlated with skill in battle. Jaime, Sandor, Gregor, Loras, Lothor Brune, ect are all great tournament fighters and great warriors.

[oba]

AverageCheese, on 22 November 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:

That was one of the lamest lines the show added. Oh lets make him such as a badass *groan*. In the book Ned never says anything of the sort, and its utterly absurd. Jousting in a tournament doesn't show what you can do in a battle. The book gave a much better reason for ned not fighting in tournaments, that ned recognized war was not a game, and playing at war was distasteful. Instead the show ignored the moral objections Ned has to tournaments and made it all about how he was too much of a badass for tournaments. It simplified his character and lessened the whole diffference between him and robert and jaime type warriors.

Oh, and I would add that skill in tournaments is directly correlated with skill in battle. Jaime, Sandor, Gregor, Loras, Lothor Brune, ect are all great tournament fighters and great warriors.

Yes.  Jaime's a great fighter.  What does this have to do with appreciation or even non-appreciation of Ned Stark?  That would be like going on the Jaime Lannister appreciation thread and talking about how clever Littlefinger is.  LF is clever, but, what would that have to do with Jaime?  Likewise, Jaime's a tremendous swordsman.  What does that have to do with Ned Stark?  Or is Jaime just so darned awesome that the mere fact that show-Ned might possibly detract from Jaime's awesomeness in the eyes of those who saw the show before reading the books diminish one's appreciation of the character of Eddard Stark?

Edited by oba, 22 November 2011 - 09:37 PM.

[mediocre cheese]

oba, on 22 November 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

Yes.  Jaime's a great fighter.  What does this have to do with appreciation or even non-appreciation of Ned Stark?  That would be like going on the Jaime Lannister appreciation thread and talking about how clever Littlefinger is.  LF is clever, but, what would that have to do with Jaime?  Likewise, Jaime's a tremendous swordsman.  What does that have to do with Ned Stark?

What you quoted me writing is almost entirely about ned, and how that line didn't fit him but whatever forget Jaime. I don't think Ned was a great fighter. He was a good person and a good ruler of winterfell, but he wasn't a particularly good fighter and I think his martial abilities are often overrated. Is that relevant enough?

Edited by AverageCheese, 22 November 2011 - 09:40 PM.

[Stannis the Great]

I think in one of the SSMs GRRM stated that Ned was an average fighter (although probably much much better than the levy troops seeing as he was actually trained since childhood). Blame HBO for making Ned as good as Jaime because they wanted Sean Bean to look awesome. It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things (it doesn't even really matter in the novels!) so I suggest that you all take a few steps back, stop trolling and calm down.

[mediocre cheese]

Quote

Or is Jaime just so darned awesome that the mere fact that show-Ned might possibly detract from Jaime's awesomeness in the eyes of those who saw the show before reading the books diminish one's appreciation of the character of Eddard Stark?

I mentioned Jaime because ned fights with jaime in the show and jaime fails to kill him. Which is unrealistic imo. If ned had fought garlan, or sandor, or bronze yohn, to a draw I would have objected to that as well. Nothing to do with Jaime
I disliked that ned was made out to be the awesome warrior, when in fact he was nothing of the sort, he was a diligent ruler and decent person, who lived in the shadow of his more charismatic brother (who was a great swordsmen). Changing that struck me as wrong, and really distorted the character and people's image of him. One of the most interesting things about Ned is that Brandon naturally was more gifted, a better looking charismatic guy who was an excellent warrior, but Ned ends up being ruler of the north and despite being not as naturally gifted is the better ruler, because he's a kind person who works hard at providing good rule. The show by making Ned this great badass who is too manly to fight in tournaments distorts that aspect of him, and turns him into a two-dimensional flawless hero.

Edited by AverageCheese, 22 November 2011 - 09:52 PM.

[daenerys snow]

this is my thread and i wanted it to be full of stark love not hate. take that somewhere else and while you're at it, take your jaime "sister fucker" love with you.

hbo took a lot of liberties. yes. it's television and they're known for that. the heroes all have to be macho manly men. that is what tv executives think viewers expect. they dumb everything down because they have no respect for out intelligence. but that is another topic for another thread.

now i expect to see some ned appreciation and the haters can kindly go and make your own thread and stop trolling this one. nao!

[Dragonfish]

daenerys snow, on 22 November 2011 - 09:58 PM, said:

this is my thread and i wanted it to be full of stark love not hate. take that somewhere else and while you're at it, take your jaime "sister fucker" love with you.

hbo took a lot of liberties. yes. it's television and they're known for that. the heroes all have to be macho manly men. that is what tv executives think viewers expect. they dumb everything down because they have no respect for out intelligence. but that is another topic for another thread.

now i expect to see some ned appreciation and the haters can kindly go and make your own thread and stop trolling this one. nao!

I'm not seeing the Ned-hate. I see AverageCheese complaining about how his character was adapted in the show, but no Ned-hate.

[Raksha the Demon]

I love Ned Stark; he was a great character, and the character that pulled me into AGOT/ASoIaF.  The story of a proud and honorable man sucked into a place and a position for which he was unsuited, out of mingled honor and duty, was fascinating.  I couldn't help but like Ned and cheer for him; and never more when he sacrificed his honor to save his daughter (sob!).  

There need to be more princes and politicians who fight to preserve life instead of letting it be casually taken for the sake of expediency.  Ned had a thankless and difficult task as King Robert's task; a task to which most men would have been unequal.  He tried to do his best, for his family, for his king, and the people, smallfolk, they ruled.  

Westeros may not see Ned's like again.  I can only hope that one day, his surviving children will learn that he was actually not a traitor.

Edited by Raksha the Demon, 22 November 2011 - 11:05 PM.

[daenerys snow]

Dragonfish, on 22 November 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

I'm not seeing the Ned-hate. I see AverageCheese complaining about how his character was adapted in the show, but no Ned-hate.

i saw people ragging about how jaime is a better warrior and lots of trollish comments about ned being headless. qualifies as hate to me or at the least trolling cause it has nothing to do with appreciation.

[daenerys snow]

Raksha the Demon, on 22 November 2011 - 10:35 PM, said:

I love Ned Stark; he was a great character, and the character that pulled me into AGOT/ASoIaF.  The story of a proud and honorable man sucked into a place and a position for which he was unsuited, out of mingled honor and duty, was fascinating.  I couldn't help but like Ned and cheer for him; and never more when he sacrificed his honor to save his daughter (sob!).  

There need to be more princes and politicians who fight to preserve life instead of letting it be casually taken for the sake of expediency.  Ned had a thankless and difficult task as King Robert's task; a task to which most men would have been unequal.  He tried to do his best, for his family, for his king, and the people, smallfolk, they ruled.  

Westeros may not see Ned's life again.  I can only hope that one day, his surviving children will learn that he was actually not a traitor.

agreed. he just didn't seem understand the art of the backstab which the southrons seemed to have perfected over the years. but his honour and love for his family make him one of the best human beings in the series even if he was one of the worst politicians.

[ManyFacedOne]

I appreciate The Ned - the second greatest of the Starks, the frozen faced fool, unyielding as ice, but that's what I love about him. He had a set of morals that he wouldn't betray for anyone no matter what the price. Even after five books his presence is still felt throughout the land. Oh and I hate Lady Dustin purely for wanting to desecrate The Ned's sacred bones. I hope he's laid to rest safely in the end and wolves eat Lady Dustin and her dogs.

AverageCheese, on 22 November 2011 - 09:30 PM, said:

In the book Ned never says anything of the sort, and its utterly absurd. Jousting in a tournament doesn't show what you can do in a battle.

Tournaments weren't limited to just jousting. There's really nothing absurd about it.

AverageCheese, on 22 November 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:

The show by making Ned this great badass who is too manly to fight in tournaments distorts that aspect of him, and turns him into a two-dimensional flawless hero.

No it doesn't. It was one small aspect of his character, every other aspect that makes him who he is was still there.

Quote

Westeros may not see Ned's life again. I can only hope that one day, his surviving children will learn that he was actually not a traitor.

They know.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Quote

He honored a dying man's promise despite the fact that he knew that the brats were concieved by twincest.

Uhh... Is this the same promise that he made by altering the wording of the will Robert was dictating, and then inviting Stannis to come on home and claim his throne?  What do you imagine Ned thought Stannis was going to do with these little "abominations," find them a nice house somewhere and visit his beloved nephews and niece when his duties as king permitted?

Ned gets points for trying to be an honorable guy, and for being honest quite literally to a fault, but when the chips came down he was as capable of duplicity and scheming as the next guy, and unfortunately much worse at it.

As far as being ordered by the OP to only post rainbows and sunshine about Ned ... Don't know if you've noticed, but these appreciation threads (and actually the whole board) does not really work that way.  And even if it did, this would be the shortest and most boring thread ever posted.  10-20 posts of "Ned rocks, dude!" and it would be on page 34 of the threads by tomorrow morning.

[Raksha the Demon]

daenerys snow, on 22 November 2011 - 10:47 PM, said:

agreed. he just didn't seem understand the art of the backstab which the southrons seemed to have perfected over the years. but his honour and love for his family make him one of the best human beings in the series even if he was one of the worst politicians.

We can't all be Tyrions, Tywins, Varys and Littlefingers; in fact, most people are not.  I would have probably made the same mistakes as Ned if I had been in his boots; and many more besides.   Ned Stark did the best he could; and his greatest error, giving away his plans to Cersei so she could save her children, was made out of compassion for three children who whose lives were at risk for their parents' actions.  There are worse ways and reasons to mess up.  

[daenerys snow]

given that jojen has the greensight it is possible that before he left greywater watch that a warning may have been left in regards to something about ned and howland reed, being the intelligent fellow he is, is holding ned's remains for after the conflict. [/wishing]

i'm not entirely sure lady dustin means to do what she has told reek/theon.


i especially like the part where cersei the brother fucker practically throws herself at him and is denied. very nice. the man has standards and she don't meet them.

[daenerys snow]

Raksha the Demon, on 22 November 2011 - 11:11 PM, said:

We can't all be Tyrions, Tywins, Varys and Littlefingers; in fact, most people are not.  I would have probably made the same mistakes as Ned if I had been in his boots; and many more besides.   Ned Stark did the best he could; and his greatest error, giving away his plans to Cersei so she could save her children, was made out of compassion for three children who whose lives were at risk for their parents' actions.  There are worse ways and reasons to mess up.  

this is why i say he was one of the best human beings. being the best player at the game of thrones isn't as cool as being a good person who stays true to himself and his values. one is a whore the other is a man.