I Jon still a bastard?

[idreamofpikas]

As I said, just speculation but I'm among the people who believe that Rhaegar married Lyanna and that Jon is their legitimate son. See, with Rhaegar and his heir Aegon dead, why would the Kingsguard be there watching over Lyanna if their duty is to protect the king or in this case, with the king dead, his heir? Shouldn't they be protecting the heir that it was supossed to be Viserys then? That could only mean that they were in fact protecting the real heir=Jon :D I'm sorry, my english is terrible :blushing:

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it does it make a sound?

With Rhaegar, Lyanna the Kingsguard and even Ned all dead who is still alive with authority to confirm Jons legitamacy.

[kissdbyfire]

If he was legitimized, he would rank ahead of the girls (so everybody after Sansa for her claim would be outta luck) but he would still be behind the true born sons Bran and Rickon.

Are you sure about this? I thought he'd be ahead of Bran and Rickon, too. Also, I've always thought Robb had not only legitimised him in that document, but named him his heir as well...

[Val the Wildling Princess]

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it does it make a sound?

With Rhaegar, Lyanna the Kingsguard and even Ned all dead who is still alive with authority to confirm Jons legitamacy.

Howland Reed :cool4: and maybe Rhaegar left some proof somewhere, who knows?

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Howland Reed :cool4:

As much as I'd like to agree here, I think idreamofpikas' counterargument will point to the fact that he used the phrase "with authority." Nobody cares about the Crannogmen... :frown5:

[Arkantos]

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it does it make a sound?

With Rhaegar, Lyanna the Kingsguard and even Ned all dead who is still alive with authority to confirm Jons legitamacy.

Howland Reed and anybody else who was told the story, but for now, just Howland.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

As much as I'd like to agree here, I think idreamofpikas' counterargument will point to the fact that he used the phrase "with authority." Nobody cares about the Crannogmen... :frown5:

haha well I care about him even though we haven't even met him, let's hope he has the same effect on the people of Westeros!

[Stannis the Great]

Just for clarification, "base-born" is a polite way to say "bastard-born." It has nothing to do with the nobility of the parents.

The MOST polite way to say it would be "natural son/daughter".

Actually in ASOIAF there is a difference. Base-born means lowly birth while bastard born means born out of wedlock. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive however that doesn't mean that they are the same.

"I saw the dragon's egg." Dunk squirrled the food away with their hard-bread and salt beef. "It was red, mostly. Does Lord Bloodraven own a dragon's egg as well?"

Egg lowered his book. "Why would he? He's baseborn."

"Bastard born, not baseborn." Bloodraven had been born on the wrong side of the blanket, but he was noble on both sides. Dunk was about to tell Egg about the men he'd overhead when he noticed his face. "What happened to your lip?"

[Greywolf2375]

Just for clarification, "base-born" is a polite way to say "bastard-born." It has nothing to do with the nobility of the parents.

The MOST polite way to say it would be "natural son/daughter".

It does have to do with the standing of the parents based on Merriams:

Related to BASEBORN

Synonyms: ignoble, common, humble, inferior, low, lowborn, lower-class, low-life, lowly, lumpen, mean, plebeian, prole, proletarian, unwashed, vulgar

Antonyms: aristocratic, blue-blooded, genteel, gentle, grand, great, high, highborn, highbred, lofty, noble, partrician, upper-class, upper-crust, wellborn

[headtrip_honey]

It does have to do with the standing of the parents based on Merriams:

Related to BASEBORN

Synonyms: ignoble, common, humble, inferior, low, lowborn, lower-class, low-life, lowly, lumpen, mean, plebeian, prole, proletarian, unwashed, vulgar

Antonyms: aristocratic, blue-blooded, genteel, gentle, grand, great, high, highborn, highbred, lofty, noble, partrician, upper-class, upper-crust, wellborn

Okay, but this is Westeros, and in GRRM's world, base-born is a more polite way to say "bastard", regardless of station.

[headtrip_honey]

Actually in ASOIAF there is a difference. Base-born means lowly birth while bastard born means born out of wedlock. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive however that doesn't mean that they are the same.

Interesting. I've not read the Dunk and Egg stories, so I'd not seen this.

I believe that the distinction is there for someone who, like BloodRaven, is noble on both sides. Anywho, my bad for not knowing that difference.

However, Jon, as the alleged bastard of Eddard and an unknown woman, *would* be considered baseborn. (clearly, if R+L=J is true, then this is no longer the case)

But in society's eyes he is baseborn.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Are you sure about this? I thought he'd be ahead of Bran and Rickon, too. Also, I've always thought Robb had not only legitimised him in that document, but named him his heir as well...

If Robb named Jon heir, then I think that's different, but I think Bran and Rickon could still have a claim. Legitimizing bastards was a way to make sure there was a strong male claim if there were only daughters.

[Zar Lannister]

Interesting. I've not read the Dunk and Egg stories, so I'd not seen this.

I believe that the distinction is there for someone who, like BloodRaven, is noble on both sides. Anywho, my bad for not knowing that difference.

However, Jon, as the alleged bastard of Eddard and an unknown woman, *would* be considered baseborn. (clearly, if R+L=J is true, then this is no longer the case)

But in society's eyes he is baseborn.

C'mon headtip, I like you and everything, but you've got to accept that being baseborn and bastard born is not the same in Westeros based on the correction. In fact, if you're baseborn in Westeros you don't even get a last name. Only recognized Bastards do.

[Whatever]

Just for clarification, "base-born" is a polite way to say "bastard-born." It has nothing to do with the nobility of the parents.

The MOST polite way to say it would be "natural son/daughter".

baseborn means being a bastard whose parents weren't both nobles. Bastard born means that both of the parents were nobles (it's in the Dunk&Egg tales)

Are you sure about this? I thought he'd be ahead of Bran and Rickon, too. Also, I've always thought Robb had not only legitimised him in that document, but named him his heir as well...

IF he's been legitimized, he's ahead of Bran, since he's older

[headtrip_honey]

C'mon headtip, I like you and everything, but you've got to accept that being baseborn and bastard born is not the same in Westeros based on the correction. In fact, if you're baseborn in Westeros you don't even get a last name. Only recognized Bastards do.

It's headtrip, love. ;)

I accept the correction. However, per the wiki, and per the Dunk and Egg quote, "Bastards whose parents are both of the nobility are not considered baseborn."

We do not have any statement, that I know of, that a child born of one noble parent and one common parent would not be considered baseborn.

Anyway, this is a silly argument, as it really doesn't matter. :)

[Zar Lannister]

It's headtrip, love. ;)

LOL I'm kind of dyslexic. Sorry about the missing R.

[headtrip_honey]

LOL I'm kind of dyslexic. Sorry about the missing R.

No worries! I just think the image of a tipsy head is a bit silly.

[Hound's She-wolf]

IF he's been legitimized, he's ahead of Bran, since he's older

That is incorrect. According to wiki of Ice and Fire under Bastardy:

Rights of Inheritance

The baseborn have few rights under the law and custom, when it comes to rights of inheritance. A bastard may inherit if the father has no other trueborn children nor any other likely kin to follow him. Additionally, a bastard can inherit if he is legitimized by a royal decree. However, a legitimised bastard falls in the order of succession at the end, after all true-born offspring, including daughters.

Also, wiki says a bastard with both parents being nobly born wouldn't be considered base born, so I guess that means if one parent isn't noble then a bastard is base born.

[Whatever]

The baseborn have few rights under the law and custom, when it comes to rights of inheritance. A bastard may inherit if the father has no other trueborn children nor any other likely kin to follow him. Additionally, a bastard can inherit if he is legitimized by a royal decree. However, a legitimised bastard falls in the order of succession at the end, after all true-born offspring, including daughters.

I'm sure I read around that the situation is messier than it looks. It depens or circumstances and, in this situation, if Jon was legitimized he's ahead of Bran because

1)Robb legitimized in a decree in which he also made him is heir

2)Consider the political situaton. Who is most fit to be Lord, a guy who can fight and is a good leader or a cripple who would need a regent?

[Hound's She-wolf]

I'm sure I read around that the situation is messier than it looks. It depens or circumstances and, in this situation, if Jon was legitimized he's ahead of Bran because

1)Robb legitimized in a decree in which he also made him is heir

2)Consider the political situaton. Who is most fit to be Lord, a guy who can fight and is a good leader or a cripple who would need a regent?

We don't know what the decree/will states, but yes, if Robb relieved Jon of his oath to the Night's Watch, legitimized Jon and named him heir, Jon would be a better choice than the presumed dead TreeBran! or cannibal wildling Rickon.

However, what I was saying, is that a legitimized bastard would not normally inherit in front of true born, no matter their age.

I guess I also proved myself wrong, because according to wiki, the girls would inherit in front of Jon too, unless decreed otherwise.

[Stannis the Great]

So far the only bastards we know that have been legitimised into an order of succession have been the Great Bastards - Blackfyre, Bittersteel, Bloodraven and Sheira Seastar. They had a massive war - the Blackfyre rebellions - over the succession purely because Aegon IV had given Blackfyre to Daemon and not his true-born son Daeron II.

Regarding Rob's will, we don't even know if he named Jon Snow his heir. If he had it most likely explicitly refers to him as Robb's heir and doesn't limit himself to just legitimise him. This is because he thought Bran, Arya and Rickon were dead and he would need to rule out Sansa from the succession by ensuring that Jon Snow is definitely his heir.