105 replies to this topic

[CrypticWeirwood]

Black Crow, on 19 April 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Judging by what GRRM has recently said, the answer to the true identity Others will be found in the Land of Always Winter whence Jon will presumably journey, but does it conversely mean Dany must go east beyond Asshai to learn who are the true masters of the Red Priests?

Jon is not originally from the Land of Always Winter, so it makes no sense that he will presumably journey from there.  You mean to there.

The three prefixes h-, wh-, and th- combine with the three suffixes -ere, -ither, and -ence to form nine distinct location-related terms: here, hither, hence, where, whither, whence, there, thither, and thence.

The -ence suffix is motion from some location,  the -ither suffix is motion towards some location, and  the -ere suffix is a nonmoving location. The wh- prefix means which place, the h- prefix means this place, and the th- prefix means that place.

So whence means coming from which place, whereas whither means going towards which place.  So it’s “whence I came” but “whither I go”.  “He has come hither” means he has come to this place.  “I shall go thither” is going to that place. &c &c &c.

And our lightning lord Beric Dondarion certainly seems to possess a will of his own.  I think Lady Stark does, too.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood, 19 April 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Black Crow]

Indeed and I sit here at my keyboard quite properly corrected

As to Beric Dondarion and Lady Stark, they certainly possess and awareness of their condition and an ability to make decisions, but they lack true free will in that they are stuck with the mission and can only escape by embracing what Varamyr refers to as true death.

As to who the White Walkers are ranging for, I don't think its the Children, which is why the answer lies in the Land of Always Winter

[Dragonfish]

Lykos, on 19 April 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

@Dragonfish:  As Maester Aemon is correct about the Prince that was promised being Dany?

Well, we don't actually know if he was correct about that or not yet.

Regardless, your comparison is flawed. We are not discussing whether or not there are actually different factions of the Others, we are discussing whether the Westerosi use the term "white walkers" to refer only to one specific faction, or to the Others as a whole. So far, the quotes I've provided suggest that latter interpretation.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

If my memory serves me right..others and white walkers the same...term white walkers was introduced for the purpose of TV as others might end up confusing the audience

[Serie]

Dilshan Muthalib, on 19 April 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

If my memory serves me right..others and white walkers the same...term white walkers was introduced for the purpose of TV as others might end up confusing the audience

no, both are used in the books, check few pages back if interested

[darrylzero]

Black Crow, on 19 April 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

As to Beric Dondarion and Lady Stark, they certainly possess and awareness of their condition and an ability to make decisions, but they lack true free will in that they are stuck with the mission and can only escape by embracing what Varamyr refers to as true death.

I think that's a good hypothesis, but I don't think it's verifiable yet.  We should see more about how much change UnCat is capable of soon.  So far, I think we're reading a lot into a few decisions.

Edited by darrylzero, 19 April 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[corbon]

Lykos, on 19 April 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Quote

“Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”
“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.
“The Others,” Old Nan agreed.

This  tells us that white walkers are Others, but it doesn´t tell us what else might be included in the term.

Bollocks.
Old Nan calls them White Walkers and at Bran's questions changes their name to Others. This tells us that White Walkers are Others and Others are White Walkers. Old Nan clearly uses them as synonyms with exact replacement. There is no hint of partial replacement here.

The same goes for Mists etc. There is no indication in any way that these are 'subsets' of some collective group of 'Others'. They are simply different names for the same thing. This is backed up by them doing the same general stuff despite them having different names. Its just different people using different words.
Hey, that is how the real world works. People aren't exactly technical in their descriptions and conversations. They use different words to describe the same things. One man's red is another man's crimson.

This, to me, has the stink of a theory having text twisted to fit it, not text forming a theory.

That said, it is not impossible, indeed perhaps even probable, that the Others have different classes and sub-groups.
There is just currently no textual basis for it.

[Lykos]

@Corbon
Exactly crimson is one type of red.  But if you are an artist or designer you would never call all sorts of red, crimson, unless you´re talking to an uneducated outsider whom you deem to know bollocks!!!  So I ask you please don´t do this to the boarders on the threads dedicated to the subject!

@Dragonfish
Most of Westeros doesn´t believe in the Others, but see it as some mysterious threat from long ago, yet when LC Mormont receives a message about a sighting of White Walkers, he and Tyrion pass it over as if they don´t connect this name with the Others.  
There are many possible reasons for this, but I think the one you would agree to is, that they thought that someone is talking bullshit as in the sighting of mermaids.
This and the fact that whenever Maester Luwin and Osha differed on things beyond the Wall, Osha was right, i.e. Giants and Children of the Forest shows me, that the wildlings including Tormund know what they´re talking about.

ETA: Apple Martini, Dragonfish, Corbon this definition of Others has been mentioned on this very thread since post #3, and I asked you to be so polite to leave it up to the readers to interpret.  All I said is, we can´t be shure.  And yet I´m persecuted as if I´m preaching heresy, wich I  only do when asked for my view.   But I can´t let you preach orthodoxy without letting people know, that there are alternative views.

Edited for grammar.

Edited by Lykos, 19 April 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Lykos, on 19 April 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

@Dragonfish
Most of Westeros doesn´t believe in the Others, but see it as some mysterious threat from long ago, yet when LC Mormont receives a message about a sighting of White Walkers, he and Tyrion pass it over as if they don´t connect this name with the Others.  

I'd need to see the full quote before I could contest/agree with this, but first I have ask: how exactly does this support your point? You're arguing that white walkers are a type of Others, are you not?

Quote

This and the fact that whenever Maester Luwin and Osha differed on things beyond the Wall, Osha was right, i.e. Giants and Children of the Forest shows me, that the wildlings including Tormund know what they´re talking about.

But Tormund doesn't say anything that refutes my point. All he does is offer a poetic description of the enemy. Hell, even the term "white walker" is itself merely a poetic description.

And once again, I must re-iterate: the issue here is not whether there are actually several factions of Others or not, or if anyone in Westeros knows this; the issue here is how the Westerosi use the term "Others" and "white walkers." I think the text says pretty definitively that they use the terms synonymously, and that is what I will persist in believing until something tells us otherwise.

[corbon]

Lykos, on 19 April 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

@Corbon
Exactly crimson is one type of red.  But if you are an artist or designer you would never call all sorts of red, crimson, unless you´re talking to an uneducated outsider whom you deem to know bollocks!!!  So I ask you please don´t do this to the boarders on the threads dedicated to the subject!

There are no artists or designers with respect to Others. Everyone we see is a layman - the Others are practically the definition of the great unknown. That is the point. One person calls them Others, another White Walkers, another Mists. Its all the same thing - none of those people are experts divining the difference between red and crimson.

And the 'bollocks' was earned. You took a word substitution, Others for White Walkers, and claimed it showed one to be a subset of the other, when it was used as a complete substitution, not a partial substitution. That is what I mean by this smelling of a theory twisting the text, rather than the text informing the theory.

[Lykos]

@Dragonfish
I´m arguing that they might be, and asked not to make other people believe that they are definitely not.  I think the relationship of the term Others and White Walkers might be similar to the terms King in the North and Kings of Winter.  The first are used by outsiders and the latter by insiders and they might be more specific but what this specific meaning is seems to be forgotten.  But I think we´ll find out eventually.

[Lykos]

@Corbon
Why should Old Nan embark on an explanation of Others in the middle of the story.  If she had told a story of dwarfes and Bran had asked, little folk? She would also have said yes, and not explained the specific differences between dwarfes, gnomes, fairies and heinzelmännchen.


I have to go again.

[corbon]

Lykos, on 19 April 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

@Corbon
Why should Old Nan embark on an explanation of Others in the middle of the story.  If she had told a story of dwarfes and Bran had asked, little folk? She would also have said yes, and not explained the specific differences between dwarfes, gnomes, fairies and heinzelmännchen.


I have to go again.

What relevance is this? Whether she should or not, the fact is that she didn't (and neither has anyone else). It is still only an unfounded assumption that there is a difference, as yet.

As I already said, this theory of classes or sub-groups is not impossible. It's just not based on anything in the books (yet).

[Lykos]

@corbon
This is what I said in post #50, so we now have wasted 43 posts.  And prevented me from apreciating a perfectly interesting idea posted by moongoose.

[Black Crow]

I think that this is turning into one of those arguments with more heat than light.

In answer to Dragonfish, the passage is in AGoT Tyrion:3:

"I tell you my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths, and snow bears the size of aurochs, I have seen darker shapes in my dreams"
"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.
Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."
This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."
"Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than before. They are running, my lord... but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Nights Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north."

As argued above Mormont clearly doesn't equate the White Walkers with the darkness, or rather while their appearance is troubling they're not what everybody is running from. Thus far all we've seen are small groups and individuals and there's a certain consensus on the Heresy threads that they themselves are just rangers, harbingers of the true Others coming out of the darkness from the Land of Always Winter

[Leto]

What's with the hostility in this thread?

The point Lykos raised was that there is a possibility that there is more to the others than white walkers. What is so provoking about that?

One would think that after 5 books and almost no info on what is going on with the Others or What/who they are, a discussion on the subject would be enthusiastic and welcomed..

[Bushido]

White Walkers and The Others are synonymous.
White Walkers corresponds to Wildlings' type of perception,it is direct,both mystical and literal.
The Others is very fitting wording for humans with flawed memory,many things get lost in history.

Also,The Others are more powerful,more sentient (can choose who to attack,for example not Craster,taking his sons as recruits,having a tongue,calculating ) than Wights (puppets,basically).
I can imagine them having some sort of hierarchy.
Regarding mist,remember Bran transiting the barrier,and seeing across it,he woke from horror? That specific cold they bring? Or the cold brings them?

[Bushido]

White Walkers and The Others are synonymous.
White Walkers corresponds to Wildlings' type of perception,it is direct,both mystical and literal.
The Others is very fitting wording for humans with flawed memory,many things get lost in history.

Also,The Others are more powerful,more sentient (can choose who to attack,for example not Craster,taking his sons as recruits,having a tongue,calculating ) than Wights (puppets,basically).
I can imagine them having some sort of hierarchy.
Regarding mist,remember Bran transiting the barrier,and seeing across it,he woke from horror? That specific cold they bring? Or the cold brings them?

[Bushido]

White Walkers and The Others are synonymous.
White Walkers corresponds to Wildlings' type of perception,it is direct,both mystical and literal.
The Others is very fitting wording for humans with flawed memory,many things get lost in history.

Also,The Others are more powerful,more sentient (can choose whon to attack,for example not Craster,taking his sons as recruits,having a tongue,calculating ) than Wights (puppets,basically).
I can imagine them having some sort of hierarchy.
Regarding mist,remember Bran transiting the barrier,and seeing across it,he woke from horror? That specific cold they bring? Or the cold brings them?

Edited by Bushido, 20 April 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[Bushido]

double post

Edited by Bushido, 20 April 2012 - 07:08 PM.