The Official Tyrion Lannister appreciation thread

[Whatever]

I think he's smart, funny, complex, conflicted, a good man forced into bad situations

my point is that he's most definitively NOT a good man, and the fact that he makes jokes to other people's expense while ignoring his own flaws isn't an excuse for being a bad person.

[Stannis the Great]

He stated the series as perhaps the most likeable character but after ASOS he has become a broken man. The revelation about Tysha along with the murder of Shae and Tywin has pushed him over the edge and transformed him into a most unsympathetic character. However it has certainly made him more interesting despite the weary travelogue that was most of his chapters in ADWD. The fact that he is a shell of what he was doesn't excuse him for the brothel incident at Volantis but it goes a good way into explaining his actions there, despicable though they may be.

I think it's a bit harsh to label him as definitively not good - there are quite a few incidences where Tyrion is being kind, for example with Penny and Jorah. There are of course times where he is not good but you can say that for the vast majority of characters in the series. Every character (except Ramsay Bolton) are varying shades of grey. To describe Tyrion as being definitively not good (i.e. has no white and is all black - wow that sounds racist) is simply incorrect.

[headtrip_honey]

He stated the series as perhaps the most likeable character but after ASOS he has become a broken man. The revelation about Tysha along with the murder of Shae and Tywin has pushed him over the edge and transformed him into a most unsympathetic character. However it has certainly made him more interesting despite the weary travelogue that was most of his chapters in ADWD. The fact that he is a shell of what he was doesn't excuse him for the brothel incident at Volantis but it goes a good way into explaining his actions there, despicable though they may be.

I think it's a bit harsh to label him as definitively not good - there are quite a few incidences where Tyrion is being kind, for example with Penny and Jorah. There are of course times where he is not good but you can say that for the vast majority of characters in the series. Every character (except Ramsay Bolton) are varying shades of grey. To describe Tyrion as being definitively not good (i.e. has no white and is all black - wow that sounds racist) is simply incorrect.

I would say that being definitively not good could also imply that he's not, to use your metaphor, "all white."

[Stannis the Great]

Then you can say that about every single character in ASOIAF.

[headtrip_honey]

Then you can say that about every single character in ASOIAF.

Yep.

[Whatever]

I would say that being definitively not good could also imply that he's not, to use your metaphor, "all white."

he's definitively more black than white.

a very dark shade of grey :D

he revelation about Tysha along with the murder of Shae and Tywin has pushed him over the edge and transformed him into a most unsympathetic character.

Which I don't get. He still refuses to accept his role in the whole thing. It's is fault more than Jaime's.

[ZacharyB]

I love Tyrion because he's an interesting character. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't like him simply because he's a bad person. If you found his chapters boring and uninteresting...but I don't understand why you wouldn't like a character simply because you don't like them as a person.

[Whatever]

I love Tyrion because he's an interesting character. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't like him simply because he's a bad person. If you found his chapters boring and uninteresting...but I don't understand why you wouldn't like a character simply because you don't like them as a person.

because I hate how he's overhyped and because all the selfpitying and emo-ness is incredibly boring

[ZacharyB]

because I hate how he's overhyped and because all the selfpitying and emo-ness is incredibly boring

I suppose if what other people think about Tyrion really influences your opinion than that's alright...

But Tyrion isn't really that emo. Self-pity sure, I guess. But the self-pity aspect of his character is one of the things I love about him.

Maybe I'm just weird.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

Tyrion is the single best character in ASOIAF. That's a whole lot to appreciate, but it won't matter. This thread is doomed.

Why is this thread doomed?

[JKeats]

Because it'll just be the same pro and anti Tyrion arguments we've had several times already. He's got to be among the most thoroughly discussed characters in the series, along with Dany and Sandor Clegane.

I appreciate the spirit in which you started this thread. As a Tyrion fan, I approve of Tyrion appreciation. But there's really nothing new to be said, either pro or con.

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

I appreciate the spirit in which you started this thread. As a Tyrion fan, I approve of Tyrion appreciation. But there's really nothing new to be said, either pro or con.

Ah. Well, I am very new to the books, HBO series, westeros.org, these forums, all of it..... And tearing through them like wildfire at the Battle of the Blackwater.

[brashcandy]

Ah. Well, I am very new to the books, HBO series, westeros.org, these forums, all of it..... And tearing through them like wildfire at the Battle of the Blackwater.

Don't worry. New people can always make old arguments :) and it's still effective for people to discuss why they like or dislike Tyrion according to their standards.

[JKeats]

Ah. Well, I am very new to the books, HBO series, westeros.org, these forums, all of it..... And tearing through them like wildfire at the Battle of the Blackwater.

Fair enough. And I suppose it is always possible a new reader or poster will present a fresh perspective.

[Erinne]

Because it'll just be the same pro and anti Tyrion arguments we've had several times already. He's got to be among the most thoroughly discussed characters in the series, along with Dany and Sandor Clegane.

I appreciate the spirit in which you started this thread. As a Tyrion fan, I approve of Tyrion appreciation. But there's really nothing new to be said, either pro or con.

Well, if you look at it like that, there isn't much to be said about anything in these books that hasn't been said before, so what's the point of having these forums at all?

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

Okay, where do I start?

I dislike Tyrion. Actually I think he's the character I dislike the most, and probably the most overrated character in ASOIAF.

The reason is simple. First, I don't like him as a person (not as a character - I like how he's written). Second, I hate how everybody, keeps thinking that Tyrion is an incredibly awsome person, when he's pretty horrible. As I'm known to say on those board, being witty and fun can't be an excuse for being a dick.

When I started reading ASOIAF, I kinda liked Tyrion's devil-may-care attitude. As I keep reading, I realized how much this wasn't real and how great of an hypocrite Tyrion is, since he keeps finding excuses for all the wrong he does.

Yes, he's a dwarf and his daddy hates him. is this an excuse for Tyrion's crimes and pathetic self-pity? I really don't think so.

I'm not talking about Tywin'd death, which is IMO the best thing Tyrion has ever done. I'm talking about Tyrion basically being a jerk. He likes to have people scared and threatened because he likes to feel "important" and not just "the imp". This is mean and useless, done for the only purpose of making Tyrion feel better. Well, we see how well this works with Cersei in Clash. What an utterly stupid thing to do.

He doesn't do much more, really. His only purpose in Storm is to be our KL POV, and he spends all his time falling in love with his own delusion, and killing Shae when he realizes his dream was that - just a dream.

And don't make me start with the whole Tysha story. yes, Tywin is a shitty dad, we all got this. But this is not the point. The point is that he took part in the gang-rape of his 13-years-old wife. And he doesn't feel sorry for it. He blames Tywin, Jaime, the gods, everybody else except himself. This is what i call being a delusional hypocrite. It actually amuses me - how Tyrion keep thinking of finding Tysha. Like if she would ever want to see him again.

Why? Because he's funny?

I actually find rather funny how Tyrion spends time being snarky and noticing other people's flaws, but never his own

Yes. Maybe true. Maybe all of it. But the point is not to ask yourself if you would do those things and be like him if you had the type of life you've had, but rather if you would be like that and do things like that if you'd had the type of life he'd had. That's the point of the POV narrative, to put us, the readers, in the shoes of the characters, good or bad, nice or mean, lawful or unlawful. Tyrion is what he told Jon SNow he is - a man who takes the worst things people have said about him, and then becomes those things, in order to make them his shield, so they can never be used to hurt him again. In that way, he is like Sandor and Jaime.

[brashcandy]

Well, if you look at it like that, there isn't much to be said about anything in these books that hasn't been said before, so what's the point of having these forums at all?

I think the problem was that there was a very recent thread where sooo many arguments for/against Tyrion were put forward - not to mention the one over on ADWD on the Lannisters that was over 900 posts long.

Regardless, Tyrion is a popular and divisive character, so I'm sure this thread won't fall to the wayside.

[Woman of War]

At least in these forums the character Tyrion is definitely not overhyped. Actually I get the impression that he is a character that splits the forumites here in two camps more than any other character and I would really like to know why this is the case. What makes him special in that way? first I believe because he comes in conflict with another equally polarizing character, Sansa. In her case it's probably not like and dislike but fandom and boredom. So who likes Sansa feels bound to dislike Tyrion and it is not so very difficult finding reasons to form a case against him. Virtually all of them have been discussed in former threads, I could easily repost my own posts here, but that would only be the last refuge if I get unimaginative.

But the main reason the character Tyrion - or the imaginary person Tyrion - is disliked is precisely the same reason that makes him interesting: we have insight into his head. We can see him go down the drain, sink into depression, self-pity and disgust about himself through his own eyes, hear his inner monologues, larmoyant or clearsighted. We know that he is emphatic, compassionate and at the same time cruel in a very calculated manner. So often his behaviour makes me feel "surrogate shame", leaving me embarrassed on account of his actions, this counts especially for many of his encounters with women. Of course feeling embarrassed on account of someone else is based on an initial sympathy for a character to begin with. I'd hardly have the same emotions with the character Ramsay Bolton e.g.

We don't have POV's from other equally "morally grey" characters, no Littlefinger, no Varys, no Sandor or Margaery. There is only Daeneris - what happens? She is more and more disliked during the course of action because we can see her conflicts and mistakes more clearly than only from the outside.

Varys for example, an extremely interesting character, may be far more calculating, cruel and cold than Tyrion, he may have abused I don't know how many children - does he evoke so many emotions? There are no Varys hate threads, no fangirl hate for a child abuser because the kids he abuses are nameless smallfolk who have never been pretty damsels. Of course GRRM can't give us a Varys POV by now because that would reveal too many secrets.

Or Sandor. We know from the story that he uses prostitutes. Does he treat them any better than Tyrion? Given the cold murder of Mycah and that he is a professional killer he may not waste a second thought about their physical wellbeing or their dignity, we don't know because we have no POV and by the way nearly no informations about the character Sandor at all, so he leaves room for all kinds of projections far beyond the books.

So readers who dislike Tyrion can do so only because they are given the material to do so, there is fodder for emotions, enough proof to form an accusation. Any other character would walk free because of reasonable doubt on his guilt, not enough material.

And, last but not least, there is a hopefully unconscious dislike in the heads of many posters that a character as repulsive and ugly as that deformed cripple ( definitely not my ideas, before you accuse me of politically incorrect choice of words ) gets so much sex and dares to enjoy some of it. Here I am sure that GRRM intentionally and with great pleasure wants to provoke the readers. It is the same feeling why young people find the idea of old people having good sex repulsive, "old" in that case tends to begin with the age of one's own parents ( mummy - daddy - sex URRRGGH). We are so conditioned by those perfect Photoshop bodies, looking at us from every frontpage trying to sell us any happiness that can be bought for money that even average bodies are perceived as ugly and insufficient, how much more someone who is definitely so much different.

Here I am not trying to tell you that Tyrion is always a nice and friendly guy but I am trying to explain why the character Tyrion gets so much more negative feedback for actions that are perfectly comparable to other characters' behaviour. i personally think he is a very well written character and i would definitely enjoy an intelligent dinner table conversation with him but then I am a woman who has little courtesies and is willing to mouth back.

[Toro]

So, if you're from a horrible family and you're slighly less horrible you are a good person? Theon Greyjoy is a saint then.

If nobody thanks you, than you're a good person? I'd say that Jeor Mormont his Westeros's biggest hero then. Nobody gave a shit about him.

Anyway, I think that AGOT!Tyrion is completely different from the Tyrion we know after he got appointed hand. he used to be a better person, IMO.

As I said, the fact that he's a dwarf isn't an excuse. People are always saying how emo Jon's behavior is, because he's all angsty about being a bastard, Well, tyrion's a LOT worse. His treatment of Shae wasn't kind, but HORRIBLE. He thought he was his maniac pixie dream girl, and then he killed her, for god's sake. how on earth is this KIND? you've got to be kidding me.

I would think it would be plain I wasn't referring to the murder in a jealous rage part.

Shae was a camp follower. Given the treatment of army camp whores in westeros, yes, he was kind, and concerned for her safety, and even in love with her.

Tyrions whoring is always rather sad, pre ADWD, because it seems to me he's looking for affection, not flesh. Where else is he to get it? How many highborn or baseborn ladies are going to fall for a deformed dwarf?

No, Tyrion isn't a saint. He's conniving and Machiavellian and murderous, in the end. So is Cersei, but one never sees any acts of kindness from her.

BTW, I don't remember Shagga ever being described as specifically raping somebody. I wouldn't put it past him. He's funny, and simple, and a refreshing counterpoint to Tyrions intrigues. Shagga likes axes.

As far as there being countless Tyrion threads, I see where you're coming from, and I do use the search function, and lurked for a while. I don't think there's much that hasn't been discussed here from what I've read. If you haven't discussed it it's new to you :)

[Son of Jon Snarkgaryen]

@ Woman of War --> I actually find I like both Tyrion and Sansa. Though I do not want them together!! No more than I want Sansa and Sandor together!! Yuck!!