Cersei and Jamie are Targaryens

[corbon]

It was on their wedding night that tensions grew, apparently Aerys was talking about the 'right of the first night' where a lord (or King) gets the first go on the new bride... Jaime and Cersei were (maybe) conceived that night. Tyrion much later

I believe he just took slightly excessive 'liberties' during the bedding ceremony. Clearly nothing major. Probably a bit more serious touching that would normally be appropriate, at most.

And given that Aerys actually wanted to marry Joanna, but instead obeyed his father and married his sister, I'd imagine that tensions existed before the wedding night shenanigans - and in fact it was probably those existing tensions that made the shenanigans more significant.

But yes that was the point. The poster I replied to appeared to claim this was related to Tyrion, not Cersei and Jaime. I just asked how that conclusion was reached.

The implication in ADWD was that if Joanna was linked to Aerys then the child they had was Tyrion

Barristan mentions Aerys "had a thing" for Joanna in a ADWD and it was a source of tension between the two.

[dachsy]

Haven't read through all the posts but just a thought - Sansa, Robb, Bran and Rickon resemble the Tullys in appearance so it's a possibility that the twins could just resemble Joanna Lannister. GRRM might not be too concerned about genetics? I think the Targ features would be recessive anyway. Jamie's dream where Joanna weeps when he tells them that Tywin has a Queen and a Knight as children makes me speculate that they might be the children of Aerys. Not that I want them to be Targs.

[AnotherCrannogman]

I agree with this 100% - Jaime and Cersei are Targs, and the fact that Jaime and Cersei are so attracted to each as brother and sister also goes to their Targ heritage.

[The Third Eye]

Like I said in another thread:

In my point of view, Jamie and Cersei are bastard children of Aerys Targaryan and Joana Lannister. But that doesn't make them Targaryans it makes them Rivers...

What I mean:

Forget about the idea that there is such a thing as "a targ" who has secret powers etc. That's not how the game works. For most members of the Targaryan family, Targaryan is nothing but a surname. The fact that there's something special about Daenerys doesn't make all her relatives special too. The same applies for the Stark children. This generation is special. But their ancestors most likely weren't.

What it means to the story:

Nothing. If you don't like them to be Aerys children, then they aren't. The truth that is established between a book and its reader is as unique as the reader themselves. Or in other words. I don't think that will advance the plot at all. I cannot even immagine it being revealed to anybody at any point in the novels. Aerys is dead and so are Joana and Tywin. Cersei and Jamie grew up believing they were Tywin's children...so nothing's ever going to change that.

Why I like them to be Aerys children:

It would add a bitter sweet irony to the whole story. Jamie would have killed his own father - like Tyrion. Joffrey would have been Aerys Grandson. And the Lannister twins' perchant for incest would have an expaination of some sort....

But again... they're only Aerys children if you like them to be Aerys children. In my imagination, they are... maybe that's just my kind of humor..

[ambi76]

I'm sorry, but I also will have to at least have this as head-canon forever. I just read the Aerys II Targaryen entry on the ASOIAF wiki and I'm just blown away by the parallels to our dear Mad Queen Cersei that are absolutely insane. I just love it, and Jaime killing Aerys, and everything about it, just like others seem to hate it. :dunno:

[7th-key]

What if Rhaegar knew Jamie and Cersei were his brother/sister the entire time. This could be why he kept Jamie in KL instead of brining him.

There is a passage in Jaime's POW were he recollects wanting to go with Reagar to the trident, but the prince tells him to stay in KL, cryptically adding that after he'll return from the battle they'll have to talk.

About what?

[Danelle]

There is a passage in Jaime's POW were he recollects wanting to go with Reagar to the trident, but the prince tells him to stay in KL, cryptically adding that after he'll return from the battle they'll have to talk.

About what?

I think that Rhaegar planned to depose Aerys and he counted on Jaime's assistance and consequently on Tywin's support.

[The Bedding]

They're Targs. It's obvious. Tyrion is Tywin's son.

[Kaguya]

Like I said in another thread:

In my point of view, Jamie and Cersei are bastard children of Aerys Targaryan and Joana Lannister. But that doesn't make them Targaryans it makes them Rivers...

What I mean:

Forget about the idea that there is such a thing as "a targ" who has secret powers etc. That's not how the game works. For most members of the Targaryan family, Targaryan is nothing but a surname. The fact that there's something special about Daenerys doesn't make all her relatives special too. The same applies for the Stark children. This generation is special. But their ancestors most likely weren't.

What it means to the story:

Nothing. If you don't like them to be Aerys children, then they aren't. The truth that is established between a book and its reader is as unique as the reader themselves. Or in other words. I don't think that will advance the plot at all. I cannot even immagine it being revealed to anybody at any point in the novels. Aerys is dead and so are Joana and Tywin. Cersei and Jamie grew up believing they were Tywin's children...so nothing's ever going to change that.

Why I like them to be Aerys children:

It would add a bitter sweet irony to the whole story. Jamie would have killed his own father - like Tyrion. Joffrey would have been Aerys Grandson. And the Lannister twins' perchant for incest would have an expaination of some sort....

But again... they're only Aerys children if you like them to be Aerys children. In my imagination, they are... maybe that's just my kind of humor..

Cersei is Aery's daughter, by far.

Jaime definitely probably came out better on the coin deal

[The Marquis de Leech]

I've always had a soft spot for this one, even if I don't believe it myself (it's far far more interesting than the comparable Tyrion theory). It renders Cersei's determination to be the true Lannister heir all the more pathetic, doesn't really change Jaime's dynamic (he's still a spoilt rich kid, regardless of his parentage), and makes Tywin's treatment of Tyrion (his true son) all the more ironic. Plus, there's a couple of delightful sub-ironies - as Targaryen bastards, Cersei and Jaime's incest is arguably to be expected, and Aerys' order to Jaime of "bring me your father's head" becomes downright hilarious.

[The Bedding]

Joffrey cut himself on the Iron Throne, like his grandfather.

[ThennAgain]

Don't think anyone's brought this up yet, but I think if this is true, it could explain something that really confuses me about Tywin:

Why would Tywin, son of Tytos, who is so obsessed with his family's pride and legacy, name his firstborn son Jaime, and honor his second born, deformed and despised son with the traditional Lannister name "Tyrion"?

Maybe he couldn't bear to give a Lannister name to Aerys' bastard?

[ambi76]

Also: Between GRRM saying Jaime's arc isn't about redemption but finding ones identity and Cersei screaming "Your legacy is a lie!" in Tywins face on the show, I feel pretty smug as a proponent of this theory.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Also: Between GRRM saying Jaime's arc isn't about redemption but finding ones identity and Cersei screaming" Your legacy is a lie!" in Tywins face on the show, I feel pretty smug as a proponent of this theory.

Why, he isn't right in the middle of tackling identity issues in your opinion, when he starts reconsidering his whole life choices and commitments? That has nothing to do with whom his parents are.

The show is not canon. And in any case, the "legacy" refers to family respectable status and she makes it clear what she talks about when a second later she confesses that she and her brother had incestuous sex.

[Maia]

Why would Tywin, son of Tytos, who is so obsessed with his family's pride and legacy, name his firstborn son Jaime, and honor his second born, deformed and despised son with the traditional Lannister name "Tyrion"?

What makes you think that the "Ty" names are somehow more traditional for the Lannisters than other names that they have used in the past? If anything, "Lancel" was the most popular name for the Lannister kings. And it wouldn't be the first time that a heir got a "J" name and a younger brother got a "Ty" one - i.e. Lord Jason and Ser Tyland from "The Princess and the Queen".

As to Tyrion's name in particular, we know from GRRM's reading of "History of the Westerlands" from the upcoming world book that:

King Tyrion II was a sadist who liked to torture women and "make them bleed". That's likely the reason for why Tywin gave that name to him - an allusion to Joanna's suffering and death in birthing him.

Also, we learned that other traditional royal names among the Lannisters were Lorien(?), Tybalt(d?) and Gerrold. Though the former fell out of use due to reasons

[Talking Hodor]

Targs aren't immune to fire. Dany was the exception, and only when the dragons hatched.

I don't really think they're Targs though. I don't like that secret Targs are popping up every where.

The vision Jaime has about the silent sister who turns out to be his mother lends very strong credence to the theory that Aerys is their father. What is the meaning of that vision, then, if they're not?

[HexMachina]

King Tyrion II was a sadist who liked to torture women and "make them bleed". That's likely the reason for why Tywin gave that name to him - an allusion to Joanna's suffering and death in birthing him.

Also, we learned that other traditional royal names among the Lannisters were Lorien(?), Tybalt(d?) and Gerrold. Though the former fell out of use due to reasons

Was that "Queen Lorien"? :laugh: that made the reading for me :D

[Mithras]

Also, we learned that other traditional royal names among the Lannisters were Lorien(?), Tybalt(d?) and Gerrold.

Though the former fell out of use due to reasons

That cross-dresser Lannister king is my favourite Lannister ever.

[Maia]

The vision Jaime has about the silent sister who turns out to be his mother lends very strong credence to the theory that Aerys is their father. What is the meaning of that vision, then, if they're not?

The meaning is " be careful what you wish for", "close, but no cigar" and "what goes around, comes around". Tywin's wishes for his children came true in such a twisted way, that not only was he getting the opposite of his heart's desire "that nobody would ever dare laugh at them", but they may, in fact become the doom of House Lannister. And it happened largely due to his own actions.

Was that "Queen Lorien"? :laugh: that made the reading for me :D

Yep.

"Queen Lorea" as he came to be called.

[The Marquis de Leech]

As to Tyrion's name in particular, we know from GRRM's reading of "History of the Westerlands" from the upcoming world book that:

King Tyrion II was a sadist who liked to torture women and "make them bleed". That's likely the reason for why Tywin gave that name to him - an allusion to Joanna's suffering and death in birthing him.

Also, we learned that other traditional royal names among the Lannisters were Lorien(?), Tybalt(d?) and Gerrold. Though the former fell out of use due to reasons

That doesn't quite fit with the actual series. When Bronn names Lollys' child Tyrion, it is remarked that the name was considered honourable and respectable, until our Tyrion went and ruined things for all other Tyrions.