400 replies to this topic

[Wolfswoodstorm]

Since this is the correct forum for "everything under the sun"...

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to read a few very, very short midieval fantasy novella chapters and provide feedback?  These are a few POV chapters from the beginning off then novella.

If you're game, I would really appreciate getting some feedback from the casual to advanced reader and all in between.  Thanks!

Just email me at:

[email protected]

[Jaxom 1974]

Yeah.  I think you want the Literature Forum and the "Boarders Writing a Novel" threads...just sayin'...

[Wolfswoodstorm]

Nope.  I would like feedback from non-writers right now.  Anything is allowed to be posted here.  Thanks to those who have already offered to read.

[Chaldanya]

nope, still literature

[Datepalm]

Mod: Still doesn't require it's own thread.

[aimlessgun]

Datepalm:   Sneakily charming villain you have there.

Migey: Well that's one way to do it...

Very interesting podcast Myrddin. But the concept is difficult to apply to multiPOV epic fantasy.
And you're right, the antagonist doesn't have to be the villain. But whatever their technical role, I guess I feel I need to have someone the readers can enjoy hating the crap out of, and they need to be a character of at least some important/substance.

[Myrddin]

aimlessgun, on 09 May 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

Very interesting podcast Myrddin. But the concept is difficult to apply to multiPOV epic fantasy.
And you're right, the antagonist doesn't have to be the villain. But whatever their technical role, I guess I feel I need to have someone the readers can enjoy hating the crap out of, and they need to be a character of at least some important/substance.

Think of it this way: Every POV character is a protagonist (i.e. the hero of his/her own story). Every protagonist has a goal (or should). Every protagonist should have an obstacle to that goal (i.e. an antagonist).

Since an antagonist doesn't have to be a villain (and can in fact be a friend), who is the antagonist for each of your POV characters? Perhaps another POV character? How does that impact their interactions?

You're right, in that this formula wasn't created for multi POV novels, and in fact was just created as a way to explain (replicate) the magic that was Casablanca. But it's an interesting exercise to go through when analyzing what might be missing. Use this if it helps add layers of drama/character depth, or ignore if it just doesn't apply.

That said, it sounds like you really want a super nasty guy to unite your readers in a universal hatred. Is there an opportunity to add a rival or something who is after the same goal as one or more POV character? Someone who isn't necessarily the Main Bad Guy ™ , but someone who is especially without scruples who will perform any vile act to achieve what the hero is trying to. A twisted reflection.

Anyway. Just trying to help generate ideas, not dictate how you should be developing your story.

[Datepalm]

aimlessgun, on 09 May 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

Datepalm:   Sneakily charming villain you have there.

As he developed, he evolved a more progressive position than the heroes with regards to the class struggle. It's out of my hands now.

[Sci-2]

Wolfswoodstorm, on 08 May 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

Nope.  I would like feedback from non-writers right now.  Anything is allowed to be posted here.  Thanks to those who have already offered to read.

Hey, just to let you know skimmed your chapters but haven't had time to do a good read. Will try to at least get you comments on the first chapter relatively soon.

[bbqq]

I'm part of the way through writing a story at the moment, which is basically an attempt at a realistic telling of a fledgling pseudo-democracy that is slowly being torn apart by the remnants of the previous class structure, the countries surrounding it, the politics behind a drug war etc, in a high-magic setting. Unfortunately, I seem to enjoy the worldbuilding aspect almost as much, so I now have thousands of years of detailed history to accompany it, and countless other stories I want to write, some of them only very loosely connected with this one I hope I'm not alone in this (especially on the writers thread on a fantasy series forum), but I suspect I may be.

[TrackerNeil]

bbqq, on 09 May 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

I'm part of the way through writing a story at the moment, which is basically an attempt at a realistic telling of a fledgling pseudo-democracy that is slowly being torn apart by the remnants of the previous class structure, the countries surrounding it, the politics behind a drug war etc, in a high-magic setting. Unfortunately, I seem to enjoy the worldbuilding aspect almost as much, so I now have thousands of years of detailed history to accompany it, and countless other stories I want to write, some of them only very loosely connected with this one I hope I'm not alone in this (especially on the writers thread on a fantasy series forum), but I suspect I may be.

I don't think so. Lots of fantasy writers fall in love with their worlds, which in my view can be both good and bad.

The Good: The more interest the writer takes in the world, the more lush and compelling that world will be.

The Bad: Some writers fall so in love with their world that they forget that readers are not necessarily as enthralled.

Admittedly I am not a fan of world-building, but I think it is fair to say that the best way to introduce details about the world into a story is to use the sand-under-your-feet method. Tell the reader what she needs to know right now; if she doesn't need to know it, hold off until she does. I'll never forget one NYT bestseller (which shall remain nameless) in which, on page 9, I was treated to a 150-word description of the types of architecture employed by three different cultures, none of which had a damned thing to do with the scene. Yes, I'm impressed that the author knows so much about his world, but if I haven't started to care about the characters I am completely uninterested in the architectural styles of imaginary societies.

I'm not saying your world-building will be like that; I'm just ranting a bit.

[bbqq]

TrackerNeil, on 09 May 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

<cut to save board space>


I'm not saying your world-building will be like that; I'm just ranting a bit.

I completely agree, it's especially important the more you worldbuild for you to keep a tight constraint on how much you let loose in your story.  Personally I love reading books with stuff like that (the Helliconia trilogy springs to mind), but it's clearly not what most people want to read. Also, it seems to me that the more subtle the writer is with weaving elements of his worldbuilding into the story, the more meaningful and memoriable it is to the reader.


(un)Luckily, I've come to the compromise of being fairly mysterious about the revealing of the world, but writing a hell of a lot of material based on it. Which is slightly daunting

[Ebenstone]

Rule #1: It's all about the writing.
Rule # 2: See rule #1.

Questions? See rule #2.

That is all.

[TrackerNeil]

bbqq, on 09 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Also, it seems to me that the more subtle the writer is with weaving elements of his worldbuilding into the story, the more meaningful and memoriable it is to the reader.

Yup. GRRM does a pretty good job of giving background on Westeros and Essos without info dumps, but of course you have to read five books to get it all. But that's no flaw, in my estimation.

[Sci-2]

I'd say what matters is having pieces of world building matter.

ETA: It should related to the characters and what is happening at present. Our introduction to Winterfell via Cat was a good example, as she could reflect on her life and give us an info dump.

I'm [also] thinking of some of the passages Mieville pulled off regarding Bas-Lag. Stuff like the descriptions of the kephri district and the history of the Weaver were interwoven with what was happening and also benefited from being so off-the-beaten-path.

Edited by sciborg2, 09 May 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Roose Bolton's Pet Leech]

TrackerNeil, on 09 May 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

The Bad: Some writers fall so in love with their world that they forget that readers are not necessarily as enthralled.

I think (as with everything) it really comes down to execution. Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books go on weird tangents that I'm not sure even count as traditional world-building (it's more characterisation of Gormenghast castle), but it works.

[TrackerNeil]

sciborg2, on 09 May 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

I'd say what matters is having pieces of world building matter.

ETA: It should related to the characters and what is happening at present. Our introduction to Winterfell via Cat was a good example, as she could reflect on her life and give us an info dump.

That's a great example. Another is when Catelyn arrives by ship in King's Landing. As she surveys the city, she thinks of how the place was founded and the Red Keep constructed, which is natural and relevant to the situation. If GRRM had dumped that on us in the second chapter, we would likely have been thinking, "Why the hell do we care about this?"

[Myrddin]

The key thing around world-building info dumps (in third person limited) is this: Does this character have a valid reason to be thinking about this topic in this much detail at this time.

A new visitor can info dump by letting us see through his/her eyes. A person returning to a place after a long time can do a comparison info dump fairly easily.

A person leaving his home on the way to work will not be thinking about how the streets are paved or the buildings are built. S/he will be thinking about whatever day-to-day concerns. If those concerns reflect on the place, then yes it fits. If the concerns are that she is late for work, then no.

[Eloisa]

Myrddin, on 10 May 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

A person leaving his home on the way to work will not be thinking about how the streets are paved or the buildings are built. S/he will be thinking about whatever day-to-day concerns. If those concerns reflect on the place, then yes it fits. If the concerns are that she is late for work, then no.

To be fair, on the way to (and from) work I make an active effort to look at my surroundings and find something attractive in them that I've never seen before (example from this morning: when you look out of one train window at a particular angle when you're just coming into Greenwich station you can see someone's gorgeous wisteria poking out from between a house and a garage: yesterday evening I realised that a particularly courageous tree is trying to grow from between two paving flags just outside my house).  But I'm weird like that.  

Lalala I must make more submissions.  But I've still only had one rejection from the batch I sent in November-Feb.  grrr.  I may go to QueryShark or something similar.  Must get back to writing the backup plan, too.... it's been a busy year, except for the holiday.

[Myrddin]

Eloisa, on 11 May 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

To be fair, on the way to (and from) work I make an active effort to look at my surroundings and find something attractive in them that I've never seen before (example from this morning: when you look out of one train window at a particular angle when you're just coming into Greenwich station you can see someone's gorgeous wisteria poking out from between a house and a garage: yesterday evening I realised that a particularly courageous tree is trying to grow from between two paving flags just outside my house).  But I'm weird like that.  

That's actually an example of an interesting character trait.

So, if you're ever the heroine of your own adventure, I expect to see new and different "world building"  details each time you walk down a street.