400 replies to this topic

[ZombieWife]

Okay, yeah, I'm doing another post here for a question.  Sorry.  I know I'm a big, dirty post-waster.

But, I'm having issues with a character.  The scenario:

"T" is nephew to a king.  His king says, "look, you have lots of experience killing off baddies, you've been in the military for a while.  How about I send you up north because these baddies are getting all riled up again.  Our neighboring kingdom to the north has requested our assistance.  Now, this kingdom isn't exactly a shining field of happiness.  It's a country known for its dubious leadership.  The current king just might have killed 3 of his brothers to ascend the throne.  We're not enemies with them, but we're not exactly chummy.  So, be careful.  Be on your best behavior..."

So "T" goes to this country and he's TRYING to be good, and he's speaking as properly as he can considering he's used to being out in the field (but he was raised "right" by his mom/pops who are nobles).  

Here's the problem: two people in my writing group think he's being kind of a pussy (their word). The chapter they speak of, he's in "formal" mode.  He's meeting the king, the king's family, being shown around, being apprised of the situation.  Things are going okay and he's proud of himself for doing a great job at being proper and polite and such.  

Someone even said, "he should get into some kind of fight with someone else there.  He needs to get in trouble of some kind, needs some external conflict."  

So, would you (knowing you're walking into a pretty nasty place--politically) go around looking for a fight?  Even if a fight came to you, wouldn't you try to go out of your way not to fuggin' get involved?  I just found the advice so.... weird.

But, I do get that there needs to be more action for him.  Right now, he's walking around talking to people.  I'm using it as a way to describe the castle, some of the people, adding in some dialogue and character building, etc..  But heck if I cannot think of something for him to DO that is more action-oriented.  Sparring seemed so "overdone" (and I have a sparring scene nearby already).  Hunting?  Feels forced.  (Maybe not.)  But, how would it serve my storyline other than to "give him something to do through action?"  It doesn't.

How does one find something to do (action-oriented) in a new place, with people they don't know, all the while trying to be on their best behavior?  He's there on business.  He's there to keep his nose out of trouble.  

I'm stuck.  Any ideas?

[Sophelia]

I've just been catching up on people's news - full of admiration for those who have written so much, and congratulations to Ebenstone on finding an agent!
I picked up my novel again a couple of months ago and have been refamiliarising myself with it by trying to do some quick edits of the chapters from the start (I know I should be finishing off but I'm working up my confidence first, and trying to pick up the plot threads in my head).  My mood goes up and down, as I alternate between thinking my story is great fun and I'd really like other people to read it, and looking at my prose and thinking it sounds like it was written by a twelve year old (no insult intended to 12-year olds) and I can't stop starting sentences with pronouns - ugh.

ZombieWife, on 03 January 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

How does one find something to do (action-oriented) in a new place, with people they don't know, all the while trying to be on their best behavior?  He's there on business.  He's there to keep his nose out of trouble.  

I wonder if what your writers' group people are saying is that by taking no risks at all he comes across as lacking courage and assertiveness.  Given that you want to convey him as being wise and not impulsively stupid, could you find some small subversive risks he could take which would come across as intelligent yet also 'badass'?

Perhaps he could have been given the name of an ally in their ranks who will give him the real low-down on the situation, but they have to meet privately with some risk because the kinslaying king has forbidden sedition.  Perhaps he could do surveys of fortifications and find things lacking, but despite asking his advice the king can't take criticism.  Perhaps he starts getting the impression that the baddies are thought of as liberators by some of the population, and needs to feel out how many people might turn against the king if it came to war (or find the traitors to betray to the king, except he is not sure if he should)... I dunno.  Just saying, that getting into a fight isn't the only way to show lack of submissiveness and to show that he is definitely not toadying up to the kinslaying king and that he is getting onto his job right away.

ETA: In terms of action, personally I feel that just (for example) having to go somewhere where he is not sure the king would like him to go, would be action enough, or if he talks to someone he has not been formally introduced to.

ETA2: If you really want him to get into a fight, why not make it so someone tries to jump him, and he beats them.  Perhaps the baddies have some spies/traitors/assassins in the king's court, who have some interest in killing the protagonist (perhaps framing the kinslaying king for the murder, so the two countries start fighting at a different front) etc. etc.

Edited by Sophelia, 03 January 2012 - 04:32 AM.

[Datepalm]

Sophelia beat me to it - when a proper fight is out, turn to skullduggery! He could find himself precariously climbing over the rooftops  or sneaking around with factions within the court or something. Maybe the baddies threatening the kingdom have spies, but they're someone close and trusted by the unstable king, so T can't just reveal them and has to catch them out.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Another option would be to have someone in the court provoke him into a duel.  Jave him narriwly win and then suffer a few retaliation attacks by his opppnents friends/family

[ZombieWife]

Okay, in just these three replies, I think I got it.  Seriously.  I woke up today so bummed out because I (naturally) wanted to magically wake up and have the answer.  So, I shuffled downstairs, and VOILA!  The answer was right here (or a seed from something you all said that will form into one).  It's not solid, but it's brewing and that means I'll have it in a few hours.  

(Slides across floor on knees, fist pumping...) YES!

[Myrddin]

Even though you seem to have your solution, ZW, don't forget about the internal conflict. "T" may be all wise on the outside, trying to do the right thing, but internally he may really just want to plunge his sword through the other guy's heart. Add internal conflicts to your externals to really amp up the tension.

And let him make mistakes. Let his field/military demeanor slip through that causes political friction and rattles personal prides. Just because he's behaving himself, it doesn't mean things will go smoothly. Or maybe the point is he is a "pussy" in this chapter and realizes he's giving too much ground politically that will bite his ass later in the book.

Edited by Myrddin, 03 January 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[Derfel Cadarn]

My hope of finishing the first draft in the next week is looking increasingly forlorn.  I'll do what I can, I hope to get a lot done tomorrow and carry the momentum over to Thursday.  I'm working Friday and Saturday, leaving Sunday and Monday before I'm back at work.

[ZombieWife]

Myrddin, on 03 January 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Even though you seem to have your solution, ZW, don't forget about the internal conflict. "T" may be all wise on the outside, trying to do the right thing, but internally he may really just want to plunge his sword through the other guy's heart. Add internal conflicts to your externals to really amp up the tension.

And let him make mistakes. Let his field/military demeanor slip through that causes political friction and rattles personal prides. Just because he's behaving himself, it doesn't mean things will go smoothly. Or maybe the point is he is a "pussy" in this chapter and realizes he's giving too much ground politically that will bite his ass later in the book.

Oh yeah.  There is definitely some internal conflict going on, too, but I can always amp that up.  As of now, I'm leaving the chapter I mentioned as is, but putting this all into the next chapter.  I decided to have an unknown person contact him from within the castle.  It could be anyone (one of the ambassadors, someone in the king's court).  That person has given him ample warnings--things are not what they seem and he's had his eyes opened considerably.  It will add more intrigue in the chapters to come (easily inserted).  There was also a near physical confrontation with this "contact" so that made for some interesting external conflict.  Ahh yes.  

I then finished rewriting another chapter AND another.  So, lots done today.  Yes!

[Eloisa]

Hurray, ZW!

I haven't got anything written today but I spent the evening going over the new project so far.  I already planned that one bad plot event was going to happen to the protagonists within the next two chapters - this was intended from the outset - but I recently decided that something else was going to go wrong for them at the same time, both because it's psychologically appropriate for part of their situation to snap off at this point and because said snappage will make it more difficult for them to solve the intended bad plot event, and problems for protagonists are good.

The problem is... there's just so much tangled up in there.  A is plotting against B who is plotting against C who is plotting against both A and B, plus D is roaming at the edges extremely annoyed with B and, although normally hostile to C, is open to negotiation under the circumstances, and E and F are hovering beyond all that in a state of opportunism, F for the chance of attacking D, and E at the chance of attacking both B and C.  (B represents the protagonists... or sort of.)  Too many options.  I think I need to attack this tomorrow with a less tired head...

Edited by Eloisa, 03 January 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[A R Stukenberg]

I've been wandering around all day trying to get myself to write something down. I've had two weeks of Winter Break too and haven't written a single line. I'm contemplating caving in and going over bits that I've already written.

What different approaches do you take when it comes to reading over your own work/editing it? Really the thing I do is write the piece, take a few days off, come back and read over it, that way it isn't still fresh in my head. It never fails that whenever I try to turn right around and go over a piece, since I'm in the mindset of the story as a whole, any bits that might be vague I roll right over them. Taking a few days off seems to work well, it's the closest I can come to being a newcomer to the story.

[ZombieWife]

Eloisa, on 03 January 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Hurray, ZW!

I haven't got anything written today but I spent the evening going over the new project so far.  I already planned that one bad plot event was going to happen to the protagonists within the next two chapters - this was intended from the outset - but I recently decided that something else was going to go wrong for them at the same time, both because it's psychologically appropriate for part of their situation to snap off at this point and because said snappage will make it more difficult for them to solve the intended bad plot event, and problems for protagonists are good.

The problem is... there's just so much tangled up in there.  A is plotting against B who is plotting against C who is plotting against both A and B, plus D is roaming at the edges extremely annoyed with B and, although normally hostile to C, is open to negotiation under the circumstances, and E and F are hovering beyond all that in a state of opportunism, F for the chance of attacking D, and E at the chance of attacking both B and C.  (B represents the protagonists... or sort of.)  Too many options.  I think I need to attack this tomorrow with a less tired head...

Sup E-lady!

Yeah, that is a lot, but for me.... as long as characters are clear and unique, people usually don't have issues following it.  Have you tried a physical "map" of sorts to try and organize?  Or some kind of visual?  I'm trying to think of how to chart this, ya know?  That might help.  I'm big on visuals.

I had a fight scene that involved a large group of people, so I had to literally map it out on the page.  Who is standing where?  I wrote their names in different colors, then made lines on the map of where they would go so I could track it.  It wasn't that my POV character would SEE everything that I was mapping out, but it gave me the visual I needed to keep in POV, to describe the important things, etc.

Edited by ZombieWife, 04 January 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[ZombieWife]

A R Stukenberg, on 04 January 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

I've been wandering around all day trying to get myself to write something down. I've had two weeks of Winter Break too and haven't written a single line. I'm contemplating caving in and going over bits that I've already written.

What different approaches do you take when it comes to reading over your own work/editing it? Really the thing I do is write the piece, take a few days off, come back and read over it, that way it isn't still fresh in my head. It never fails that whenever I try to turn right around and go over a piece, since I'm in the mindset of the story as a whole, any bits that might be vague I roll right over them. Taking a few days off seems to work well, it's the closest I can come to being a newcomer to the story.

Hmmm, for me, I like more distance between my writing, but that's difficult to do for smaller pieces/sections.  What's nice is that I've literally been working the 1st half of my book for the last 5 months that when I even briefly glance at the 2nd half, I'm pretty "new" to it.  "Whoah, did I write that?  That SUCKS!"  (or "that rocks!")  haha.

When I NEED to return to it ASAP, I just do my best.  I try to read it out loud and go slowly, line by line. There is something I got, not sure what it's called, but it reads text out loud. SpeakEasy?  Is that it?  Sometimes that helps, when a computer reads it for me.   Even though it's Stephen Hawking-esque, no intonation, it helps me catch a few things.  

I also upload documents to my kindle.  For some reason, in another "format" I can catch things I might not normally catch.  I think it's 100% psychological, but hey!  It works.  

I do several runs per chapter, focusing on micro (sentence structure, repetition in sentences, grammar, spelling, word choice) and then another looking at the macro (voice, plot, POV, setting, etc.)  

I used to have a checklist somewhere... I can try to drum that up.

[Reposado]

A R Stukenberg, on 04 January 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

Taking a few days off seems to work well, it's the closest I can come to being a newcomer to the story.

Definitely agree with this.


Struggling trying to get started today. Didn't really get much done in December on the book, as football writing took more and more time. So though I have only 50-70 pages left, (and i've outlined all of it) i'm struggling.

[Ebenstone]

Quote

Werthead, Ebenstone, anyone else with a blog--do you make any money from them? I'm thinking about starting on myself and was considering either offering a subscription service or going with advertising, but I don't know.

Anyone have any suggestions or advice, please let me know!

I've never tried making money on either of my blogs, so I have no answer as far as that is concerned. I am planning a sports themed blog as part of my writing plan this year and my hope is to turn that into some sort of money maker, though I'm not sure how yet. I will let you know how it goes.

ZombieWife, on 03 January 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

I'm stuck.  Any ideas?

ZW, I wouldn't worry about it because your idea sounds quite solid. If you add action just to add action it will come across as such. What you have here is a great opportunity (and someone else said it) for some serious internal conflict with the character. Is he that rigid that he can't adapt? If you do decide to put some "action" in there, a slip in the veneer is a good way to do it. Or, maybe as my Super Beta Myrddin suggest, maybe the character IS being a pussy. It's not necessarily a bad thing in the context of telling a story.

Hope that helps. Back to chapter 4 of book 2, The Book That Is Fighting The Writer.

[Eloisa]

ZombieWife, on 04 January 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Yeah, that is a lot, but for me.... as long as characters are clear and unique, people usually don't have issues following it.  Have you tried a physical "map" of sorts to try and organize?  Or some kind of visual?  I'm trying to think of how to chart this, ya know?  That might help.  I'm big on visuals.

Hmm.  I guess I'm not seeing it as a complicated scene to organise per se - such as a fight or extended action sequence - more as a conundrum of story progression.  Many scenarios are plausible right now but I'm not sure which of the specific sets of consequences will be most useful - bearing in mind this is adjunct to the main plot, not the main plot itself, but for the progression of said main plot, it'll help (or rather, won't, to them) if the protagonists suddenly lose their support network.  If I think about it long enough I'll probably light on one that makes the whole thing fit together better than the rest.  (In fact, that's probably the problem - this just hasn't had enough time to bed into my head.)

ZombieWife, on 04 January 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

I also upload documents to my kindle.  For some reason, in another "format" I can catch things I might not normally catch.  I think it's 100% psychological, but hey!  It works.  

I don't think it's psychological.  When you've worked on a book for a long time, you get used to seeing the words down on the page not just in the same order but looking the same: typeface, layout, etc., so you're more likely to read past an error because you're used to seeing it there.  My favourite order is: handwrite, read Word document, read Word printout (this is where the serious editing gets done - I'm an old fashioned girl and like attacking a page with a red pen), Kindle.  This last Kindle pass of RD, I've hardly found anything wrong, but I have noticed a few little things - mostly words repeated too close together, but I managed to read the whole book several times without noticing it was unintentionally missing a "was".

A R Stukenberg, on 04 January 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

What different approaches do you take when it comes to reading over your own work/editing it? Really the thing I do is write the piece, take a few days off, come back and read over it, that way it isn't still fresh in my head. It never fails that whenever I try to turn right around and go over a piece, since I'm in the mindset of the story as a whole, any bits that might be vague I roll right over them. Taking a few days off seems to work well, it's the closest I can come to being a newcomer to the story.

I try to have a lot of a novel, or all of a short, before I start typing up my handwritten draft.  That automatically gives me some distance.  I always leave at least a week and normally rather longer between ending one pass and starting the next.  Like ZW, I'll eventually do several runs for each chapter, but I tend to do the whole book at once rather than a chapter at a time (unless I knew a particular chapter had serious problems).


New moan of the day: three years ago, even two years ago, "manuscript format" had one specific meaning.  Now, I'm seeing different definitions in different places, and the only thing they have in common is double spacing at 1" margins.  Grr.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Finally back in the saddle and got about 2,000 thousand words written last night.  I'll need to start posting chapters on the writing board again, I've got 10 or 11 chapters to add to the 10 already up.

I've introduced a new character, essentially my "Van Helsing".

My last chapter has quite a lot of exposition but I'm not sure how much to keep.  I'll probably cut some of it and bring it out later.

[denstorebog]

Just rediscovered this thread (or series of threads) after... um - 5 years? The last time, it had a black background. I still recognize a couple of boarders from back then, so congratulations, you guys have won Denstorebog's "You Obviously Have The Patience And Tenacity To Finish A Novel" award.

On the 1st of January, I signed a contract for a YA fantasy trilogy to start publication this August, with the last two books coming out with one year in between. And with a reputable publishing house, even - but unfortunately in my ol' homeland, so unless the sales go through the roof and they decide to have it translated, fat chance that you guys will ever read it. Still, nice way to start off the new year

[Eloisa]

Yay!  Congratulations!

[Ebenstone]

Den, CONGRATS!!!!

New blog where I talk about just how busy my life has gotten:

http://johnzeleznik....-busy-busy.html

[A R Stukenberg]

Den! That's awesome!

To the others who responded in regards to different methods when it comes to editing your work, I'm slapping myself in the face for not thinking of some of them.

Eloisa, on 05 January 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

I try to have a lot of a novel, or all of a short, before I start typing up my handwritten draft.  That automatically gives me some distance.  I always leave at least a week and normally rather longer between ending one pass and starting the next.  Like ZW, I'll eventually do several runs for each chapter, but I tend to do the whole book at once rather than a chapter at a time (unless I knew a particular chapter had serious problems).

That's one thing I always try to do, write everything out first, then move on to typing the piece up. Whenever I try to just type something off the top of my head I always find myself staring down at the corner, seeing what my word count is. And there's just something about being able to mark all over the papers that's fun.

Just started my grad school application for CUNY. Have to submit 20-25 pages of a short story or beginning of a novel, double-spaced. With just above 1 week till the new semester starts up, I'm gonna have to try and get as much written as possible.

Anyone have suggestions for curing writer's block? Haha.