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Was the Red Wedding REALLY tactically smart?


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For Tywin, what I find ironic is that he holds highly the honor of House Lannister when his and Jaime's actions have destroyed the honor of the house more than his father Tytos did. Tywin says Tyrion brings shame upon the house by his whoring, yet the people aren't talking about Tyrion's whoring, it's Tywin taking King's Landing by treachery, and Jaime's kingslaying. Their actions led to people saying that the Lannisters have shit for honor. For having a hand in the RW, Tywin brought more dishonor upon his house as did Walder Frey upon his house. Tywin has been used to buying his allies, but what he fails to realize is that is akin to sellswords, when pressed against the wall, they'll abandon you, choosing life over gold. Haldon Halfmaester accurately describes the flaw of Tywin's strategy: "The Lannisters make enemies easily, but seem to have a harder time keeping friends."

The results of the RW for the Freys: more Freys have been killed as result of the RW then in the War of the Five Kings. Three Freys got baked into pies and fed to their kin, Aenys Frey unknowingly ate his son, Rhaegar. With the Golden Company combined with Dorne and a few lords of the Reach with Ironmen in the west, the Tyrells won't be able to spare any men to help the Freys if they need it. Cersei will keep her father's army in King's Landing and when Stannis and the North comes down, add a few riverlords on the other side of the Twins, the Freys are for the most part f@&ked, Walder Frey will probably die horribly.

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Walder Frey doesn't think about the future of his House. It's evident that he doesn't care about what happens when he kicks the bucket; he just wanted revenge against Robb Stark because he felt that it was a slight against him, not his house.

This is the theory I subscribe too. Walder Frey probably won't see the end of the war anyway, so he may as well make the world remember him as a man to be feared.

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This is the theory I subscribe too. Walder Frey probably won't see the end of the war anyway, so he may as well make the world remember him as a man to be feared.

I think he'll see the end of the war — the twist is that all of his offspring will either be dead or will have completely disavowed him.

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I think he'll see the end of the war — the twist is that all of his offspring will either be dead or will have completely disavowed him.

That would be a fitting end to Walder. His whole plan backfires and he is left heirless, whilst the world starts laughing at his houses hopelessness.

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That would be a fitting end to Walder. His whole plan backfires and he is left heirless, whilst the world starts laughing at his houses hopelessness.

That is true, it would be cruel but the old man totally deserves it. Hard to imagine the Freys lead by anyone other than Walder, we need him to be our own Monty Burns damn it!

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For Tywin, what I find ironic is that he holds highly the honor of House Lannister when his and Jaime's actions have destroyed the honor of the house more than his father Tytos did. Tywinpsays Tyrion brings shame upon the house by his whoring, yet the people aren't talking about Tyrion's whoring, it's Tywin taking King's Landing by treachery, and Jaime's kingslaying. Their actions led to people saying that the Lannisters have shit for honor. For having a hand in the RW, Tywin brought more dishonor upon his house as did Walder Frey upon his house. Tywin has been used to buying his allies, but what he fails to realize is that is akin to sellswords, when pressed against the wall, they'll abandon you, choosing life over gold. Haldon Halfmaester accurately describes the flaw of Tywin's strategy: "The Lannisters make enemies easily, but seem to have a harder time keeping friends."

The results of the RW for the Freys: more Freys have been killed as result of the RW then in the War of the Five Kings. Three Freys got baked into pies and fed to their kin, Aenys Frey unknowingly ate his son, Rhaegar. With the Golden Company combined with Dorne and a few lords of the Reach with Ironmen in the west, the Tyrells won't be able to spare any men to help the Freys if they need it. Cersei will keep her father's army in King's Landing and when Stannis and the North comes down, add a few riverlords on the other side of the Twins, the Freys are for the most part f@&ked, Walder Frey will probably die horribly.

Tywin was good at making friends. He basically pardoned everyone, including those who fought for Renly and then Stannis. He made a million marriage alliances, and even got his daughter on the throne. He, with Tyrion, got the Tyrells on his side. Basically, the only people he had pissed off were the northerners and Stannis, and the residents of King's Landing. Cersei and Joffrey are the ones that can't seem to do anything right. Tywin basically had set everything up perfectly for the Lannisters to run things (well until the Others wreck everything of course).

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It was a smart move, because it got them an alliance with the crown, many valuable hostages, some lands and several good marriages. It was a stupid move because it brought them eternal dishonor, lots of enemies and a terribly bad karma, and, I'm sure, will bring the downfall of their house.

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Walder Frey doesn't think about the future of his House. It's evident that he doesn't care about what happens when he kicks the bucket; he just wanted revenge against Robb Stark because he felt that it was a slight against him, not his house.

This. He may outlive everyone, and that would be sweet, but 90 year old men probably don't spend much time long term planning, and I don't think he gave a damn if he lost a few dozen heirs in the process. It's not like he doesn't have any to spare. He would see it as a small price to pay for revenge. I think he did underestimate how bad the backlash would be, and how immediate and complete.

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With Walder Frey, I think it was a case of grasp at retaining personal honour and risk losing the last bit of respect of his household! No doubt he cared more about getting one back at Robb Stark before he went to his grave, and then let his siblings worry about the concequences of the RW after Walder bites the dust!

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I still dont hate the freys as much as those bolton bastards.Atleast the freys had a genuine grevience againt robb for betraying the marriage contract and alsi fought and bled along side robb

That bastard roose kept his men out of fighting,send robett glover and the other northmen to die in duskendale and betrayed robb out of ambition.he the real bitch

Anyway...back to the topic,yea RW was pretty useless to the freys but then they were never really smart

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Good post. For someone so influential, Tywin has precious few threads around.

For Tywin, what I find ironic is that he holds highly the honor of House Lannister when his and Jaime's actions have destroyed the honor of the house more than his father Tytos did.

Yep. I remember when he and Tyrion discussed Janos Slynt in the North. Tyrion realized that relying on glorified sellswords with no personal ethics was self-defeating. Tywin refuses to accept that.

From all appearances, Tywin's perception of honor is jaundiced towards the aspects that involve being feared and having power and wealth. He rarely ever considers that trust and legitimate good will are also factors. His father was too passive, Tywin overcompensates and ends up being too reckless and destructive, as demonstrated by the emotional scars that all his offspring has. Even his unbending quality, even more extreme than Stannis', is ultimately a weakness disguised as a strength.

Tytos was a weak lord because he valued stability over being respected. Tywin is a far worse lord because he values being influential and feared over anything else, including medium-term sustentability. His last few years of decisions have been disastrous, with only the size of his army and his vast reserves of gold blunting the fall somewhat.

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I think that both if Frey's would have remained neutral or continued to support Robb, the risk to their house would be smaller. Just look at other riverlords besides Tullies and all the northmen and southmen. With all the talk about Tywin's cruelty they got pretty easy of the hook - and that even after Robb was killed and riverlords defeat was a sure thing.

Freys were a force to recon with, and if Tywin would have refused to pardon them without RW , they could have done him a lot of trouble. Also, think what such Tywin refusal to not accept Frey's surrender without RW, would have signaled to all the river lords and northmen. Tywin would have got a fight to a bitter end from every enemy lord.

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I hope that I am far enough away to be safe from your Baratheonesque proverbial fury :-)

Haha well Robert's hate for the Targaryens is nothing compared to the hatred I have for the Freys and Boltons! After reading the chapter on The Red Wedding in aSoS, I eneded up punching my bedroom wall, and dislocated one of my fingers! Not the smartest of moves, especially since yah need fingers to read books! :P

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