The Green Grace is the Harpy

[Ser Lepus]

I would like to know how the whole system of the Graces works...are every kind of Grace recruited and trained separately, or do they share all the same backgroung and social class and are different only because of their looks and brains? are they nobleborn, commoners, fostered orphans, temple slaves? Do the nobleborn White Graces become red graces during their year in the Pleasure Gardens, or are the Red Graces recruited separately, maybe girl slaves bought and trained by the temple or maybe orphans and poor girls who join to improve their lot in life? Are the Blue Graces all nobleborn ghiscarians, or can they be commoners too?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I would like to know how the whole system of the Graces works...are every kind of Grace recruited and trained separately, or do they share all the same backgroung and social class and are different only because of their looks and brains? are they nobleborn, commoners, fostered orphans, temple slaves? Do the nobleborn White Graces become red graces during their year in the Pleasure Gardens, or are the Red Graces recruited separately, maybe girl slaves bought and trained by the temple or maybe orphans and poor girls who join to improve their lot in life? Are the Blue Graces all nobleborn ghiscarians, or can they be commoners too?

I get the impression that they're probably highborn and that it's considered an honor for daughters of "gentle birth" to become Graces. Sort like the better-endowed Vestan temples in Rome, maybe? The Green Grace demonstrates a pretty in-depth knowledge of the city's nobility and high society, which leads me to think that she herself, at least, was fairly highborn.

[ServantOnIce]

I thought this and so have many of you as well. The woman seemed too "untrustworthy" she reminds me of Varys, sort of none threatening but overall he is the most dangerous threat (as we read at the end of DWD).

Also, I can't remember the part but Dany has a cool plan and the GG talks her out of it. Three treasons you shall know . . . one for Love, one for Gold and one for Blood. We shall see . . .

The Sons of the Harpy remind me of the KKK as when slavery was abolished in America, the KKK committed identical acts against freed slaves and Union Soldiers in the exact same manner. The KKK was started by former Confederate soldiers and had the support of many Democratic politicians who regained power after reconstruction. Martin loves history . . ..

[Miriel]

I get the impression that they're probably highborn and that it's considered an honor for daughters of "gentle birth" to become Graces. Sort like the better-endowed Vestan temples in Rome, maybe? The Green Grace demonstrates a pretty in-depth knowledge of the city's nobility and high society, which leads me to think that she herself, at least, was fairly highborn.

She must be highborn, she is closely related to Hizdahr right? And she tells Dany how nobly born he is--the finest blood of old Mereen or some such.

[LadyMary]

This has been tossed around before, last summer when the book first came out, but I'm doing a reread of ADWD and I'm pretty much sold on the Green Grace being the Harpy.

First off, the obvious: The Harpy in its mythological connotation is female. The (male) Meereenese nobles who are waging guerilla war against Her Radiance are referred to as Sons of the Harpy. If there really is a "head" figure in this guerilla war and they're not just a bunch of independent sleeper cells, it makes sense that the Harpy in question would be a woman. But it never occurs to Dany, herself a woman allegedly ruling a city, and her advisers that this is a possibility.

Dany's advisers are convinced that Hizdahr (who I think is a slug but ultimately just a pawn) is the Harpy, because "he" can get the violence to stop when Dany agrees to marry him. But who suggested to Dany that she should marry Hizdahr? The Green Grace.

Dany starts getting paranoid about the prophecy, thinking, for instance, that Reznak is probably the "perfumed seneschal." Yet she lets the Green Grace have access to her with pretty much no hesitancy or suspicion or wariness whatsoever. Even though she's a Ghiscari high priestess with significant cultural and familial ties to the city — she seems to defend the rise of the slave culture, saying that the area had no other economic prospects; she tells Dany to her face that she's seen as an invading murderer; she's intimately aware of each noble house and the differences between them. By giving Dany "helpful advice," she also has access to most of Dany's plans and strategy, and as such would know the easiest way to exploit any weaknesses. Dany tells her exactly who's moved against her and how (i.e. Qartheen ships doing a blockade). The Green Grace knows when freedmen have been killed, "or so she's been told." She also knows that Dany would never kill the child hostages — namely that she and her agents can wreak havoc without worrying about losing anything.

She also moves pretty seamlessly between the nobility and Dany's court — it seems to me that if she were actually helping Dany, she herself would be a target and treated like a collaborator. But she isn't. Why? Because she's not actually helping Dany.

Finally — this isn't exactly evidence, just a bit of irony — it'd be hilarious if the people that Dany's really suspicious of were actually loyal to her while the woman she thinks of as a close confidante is actually the one working to destroy her. Oops?

I've thought the same thing for a long time but never took the time to put the reasons together. Thank you for doing it. If the Green Grace isn't the Harpy, she's the Harpy's mouthpiece/spy. I still think she's the Harpy.

[Hear Us Roar]

That makes sense actually.

[ShadowRaven]

Could be......

[Ser Lepus]

I get the impression that they're probably highborn and that it's considered an honor for daughters of "gentle birth" to become Graces. Sort like the better-endowed Vestan temples in Rome, maybe? The Green Grace demonstrates a pretty in-depth knowledge of the city's nobility and high society, which leads me to think that she herself, at least, was fairly highborn.

Well, the Green Grace must be indeed highborn; I doubt the Great Masters would accept her as their religious leader otherwise; but there are White Graces (nobleborn students), Red Graces (temple prostitutes) and Blue Graces (healers), and I thought that maybe they were recruited and trained separatly: The White Graces would leave the temple when coming of age, the Red Graces could be pretty slave girls bought by the temple (as in Volantis), and the Blue Graces could be common-born girls that are given training in exchange for a life as (honored) servants of the temple...

[Spirit_Crusher]

How could I miss this? I kept being convinced that Hidzar was the harpy, but he is shown too weak and submissive, and not clever enough for such a role. Great catch!

[cybroleach]

She must be highborn, she is closely related to Hizdahr right? And she tells Dany how nobly born he is--the finest blood of old Mereen or some such.

We don't know if she's related to at all Hizdahr but we're told she's of the noble house Galare. Like most on here I definitely don't think she's aiding Dany's cause and betraying her and Barristan at every turn. I doubt there is an actual harpy which is just rallying flag but a group with her being one of the prime conspirators.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well, the Green Grace must be indeed highborn; I doubt the Great Masters would accept her as their religious leader otherwise; but there are White Graces (nobleborn students), Red Graces (temple prostitutes) and Blue Graces (healers), and I thought that maybe they were recruited and trained separatly: The White Graces would leave the temple when coming of age, the Red Graces could be pretty slave girls bought by the temple (as in Volantis), and the Blue Graces could be common-born girls that are given training in exchange for a life as (honored) servants of the temple...

I don't think it's ever been specified, so no way to know for sure until it is.

[Roughspun]

Well, the Green Grace being the Harpy would seem quite plausible to me — if this weren’t the second time Dany blindly trusts the elderly wisewoman, just to be cruelly betrayed by her. I’m just hoping GRRM won’t repeat himself like that …

[Tini]

Well, the Green Grace being the Harpy would seem quite plausible to me — if this weren’t the second time Dany blindly trusts the elderly wisewoman, just to be cruelly betrayed by her. I’m just hoping GRRM won’t repeat himself like that …

Wouldn't this rather be about Dany not learning from past mistakes, and being doomed to repeat them? I would'nt necessarily find it repetitive, GRRM might give it a new spin.

Maybe Dany'll learn this time around that not every kindly old woman can be trusted. Especially not if that woman wields a power that Dany has trouble understanding.

[Miss Andei]

I definately had my suspicions about her but they seem to be taking a long time (typically of GRRM) to be coming to fuition. Very likely I think, and this thread has only served to confirm my suspicions a little more.

[Lord Varys]

It is quite clear that Reznak and the Green Grace are constantly trying to, well, restore the true order of things back to Meereen. Reznak obviously is the voice of the nobility on Dany's council, that much is always evident.

And he also seems to be the man in charge of King Hizdahr. Hizdahr himself is never more than a figurehead in my opinion. We see as much when and how he is surprised and imprisoned by Selmy. A real player of the game would never have deposed off this easily.

As for the Green Grace, I assume she stepped into the power vacuum Dany created when she sacked the city and killed off many of the male leaders of the Great Masters. No idea how powerful she was back in the Old Meereen, but she now evidently wields more power than all the other Great Masters combined.

Her original plan seems to have been to some kind of 'Divide and conquer'-thing. Lure Dany into a trap she cannot escape by forcing her into more bad compromises than she can handle. Eventually, they would have gotten her to reintroduce the concept of slavery, and then her coalition would have been at an end. Hizdahr was a tool for more than one purpose. First, he made Dany a Harpy. All her king did would reflect back on the dragon queen, especially his mistreatment of former slaves and stuff. But more importantly, Meereen got a Ghiscari king through Daenerys. Afterward, the Meereenese nobility backing Hizdahr (i.e. the Green Grace and Reznak) did no longer use Daenerys all that much. And third, Hizdahr was the tool to make peace with the other Ghiscari cities, especially with Yunkai and New Ghis. He has kin and contacts there, and the original purpose of those cities was to get Dany out of their land, not to sack Meereen.

Poisoning Dany became an option when Quentyn arrived at Meereen. They intended to blame him for it. That would have been a gamble of sorts, but with the dragons out of the picture and with her eating joyfully every piece of shit they offered her, the Meereenese were no longer afraid of Daenerys. And if Dany were dead for good and all, the Green Grace, Reznak, and Hizdahr would have dealt much more decisively with Dany's loyalists (Selmy, Skahaz etc.). The Unsullied would have always been a wildcard, as no one can predict whom they would consider their lawful leader/superior if Dany were dead.

As things stand now, the Green Grace hoped to get Hizdahr reinstated, but she is apparently more than willing to allow the Yunkai'i and their allies to do the dirty work and clear all those foreign invaders out of her city, once and for all.

[Miriel]

I would like to know how the whole system of the Graces works...are every kind of Grace recruited and trained separately, or do they share all the same backgroung and social class and are different only because of their looks and brains? are they nobleborn, commoners, fostered orphans, temple slaves? Do the nobleborn White Graces become red graces during their year in the Pleasure Gardens, or are the Red Graces recruited separately, maybe girl slaves bought and trained by the temple or maybe orphans and poor girls who join to improve their lot in life? Are the Blue Graces all nobleborn ghiscarians, or can they be commoners too?

It seem a bit of an unknown but it does say this in one of Dany's chapters: Galazza Galare arrived at the Great Pyramid attended by a dozen white graces, girls of noble both who were still too young to have served heir year in the temple's pleasure gardens.

From this I take that many (all?) of the Graces are nobles, even the ones who serve as temple prostitutes, and that the prostitution is some sort of ritual thing.

She must be highborn, she is closely related to Hizdahr right? And she tells Dany how nobly born he is--the finest blood of old Mereen or some such.

We don't know if she's related to at all Hizdahr but we're told she's of the noble house Galare. Like most on here I definitely don't think she's aiding Dany's cause and betraying her and Barristan at every turn. I doubt there is an actual harpy which is just rallying flag but a group with her being one of the prime conspirators.

Yes, thanks, I was wrong, it is not Hizdahr she is related to. it is Grazdan no Galare (the noble who she sees in her audience chamber in the first chapter, (who she commands to give a new loom to the weaver girls b/c he could not remember the name of his old slave who taught them the art of weaving--one of Dany's nicer moments IMHO). She is said to be his cousin. Later she is also said to be related to at least two of Dany's hostage/cupbearers (Quezza and Grazhar), both nobles.

[no_true_crannog]

Well, the Green Grace being the Harpy would seem quite plausible to me — if this weren’t the second time Dany blindly trusts the elderly wisewoman, just to be cruelly betrayed by her. I’m just hoping GRRM won’t repeat himself like that …

If the Green Grace ends up being the harpy then rather than repetition I think this will fulfill the second of the three treasons Daenerys is prophecized to encounter, rather than Jorah (which I never found very convincing because Jorah's ultimate guiding force (before he met Daenerys) was the desire to return home achievable through a pardon rather than the accumulation of coin).

It would also tie in nicely with the kinds of conquest Daenerys has been involved with thus far. With Khal Drogo's horde, it was simple pillaging and rape - Mirri Maz Duur sees her loved ones killed - a treason for blood. This time around Daenerys freed the slaves. Meereen's economy is largely based on chattel slavery - all the noble houses grew rich from it. When Daenerys freed all the slaves, she also wiped out their economic base. The Green Grace feels the hit in the coin purse of the city - a treason for gold.

[Ygritte]

Yes. I think there's even a very specific family connection. There is a weaver who brings a petition to Daenerys and instead is forced to buy a new loom for his former slaves. His name is Grazdan zo Galare and he's the Green Grace's cousin.

Later the Sons of the Harpy are said to have broken into a weaving shop run by freedwomen. The Sons break the loom and rape and murder the women.

No connection is ever made explicitly between the two, but I've always been sure it was the same women who had been Grazdan's slaves (or some of the women; there were 6 slaves originally and only 3 were killed). It was orchestrated as vengeance for the humiliation and financial loss the Green Grace's cousin suffered at Daenerys' hands.

[PrinceHenryris]

I just hope that Barristan whacks BOTH Hizdahr and the GG,

Additionally, I hope that Dany comes back on Drogon and Viserion and Rhaeghal turn Mereen into a slag pit.

[4812622]

But...but...Strong Belwas is in the care of the Graces...

NOOOOOOOO