The greatest comic writers?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Curious if you could give examples. Mind you, my intention is not to prove you wrong, I find myself leaning back to Moore I am just interested in hearing people talk about the craft wrt the medium.

thanks,

Sci

DC has a really nice collection of a handful of his stories ranging from some of his more popular (Killing Joke and Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow) coupled with some of his more obscure stuff. Highly recommended. Not a bad tale in the bunch with the possible exception of a Vigilante one-shot.

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/1401209270

[Sci-2]

Hey, I thought Father's Day was pretty good, is that the Vigilante one you're talking about? I have read a lot of the Moore stories in that book, but I might get it after having more cash around. Thanks!

Oh, if anyone is interested I haven't read it but for my artist friend I got him Panel Discussions as an Xmas gift. Will try to steal...er, borrow it back and review at some point

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Hey, I thought Father's Day was pretty good, is that the Vigilante one you're talking about? I have read a lot of the Moore stories in that book, but I might get it after having more cash around. Thanks!

If memory serves it was the art on that Vigilante tale that killed it for me.

I know someone mentioned it before, but Moore's work on Swamp Thing with John Totleben and Stephen Bissette is among the most well written and beautifully drawn comics ever made. Particularly the American Gothic storyline which essentially launched John Constantine. You can't go wrong with any of their TPBs...

http://www.amazon.co...a/dp/0930289226

[Errant Bard]

I heartily disagree with you about the story. It's hardly finished yet. We haven't gotten close to revealing all the mysteries in the court. But based on how well he has handled all the inter-weaving storylines so far, and his mastery of character and tone, my recommendation is provisional on how he finishes, but optimistic that he is telling a great story.

I genuinely don't see any "mastery". He's good, but he's nothing special beyond that.

The story itself, likewise, may flow well enough, but in the end it does not have much substance beyond slice of life antics of a girl growing up. No parable, no message, no real depth, but mild entertainment. I compared it to standard fare manga, and the more I think about it, the more it's fitting. To put him on the same level as the likes of Bilal, Moebius, Tezuka or Urazawa is like saying Joanne Rowling is at the same level as Samuel Beckett.

I won't say that without Gunnerkrigg Court, Warren Ellis wouldn't have done Freakangels, but Tom's an example at the forefront of the medium. That's impact.

Somewhat, but at the same time, it's nothing special, he's one among many. Starting in 2005, he's not even among the first, by years. Of the top of my head, I was reading MegaTokyo, Exploitation Now or Order of the Stick way before (2000 and 2003). Scott McCloud treatise on webcomics was in 2000 too.

The impact is only by virtue of being part of movement that was already in motion, but I don't think you can he's special because he's participating like every other webcomic author.

I should read more European comics really. The only one I know apart from Asterix and Tintin is Thorgal, by Van Hamme and Rosinsky.

This has been a cash cow for some time now.

If you want to try some BD, you could do worse than trying The Quest for the Time-Bird from Loisel. The Incal from Moëbius, The Passengers of the Wind from Bourgeon, and the Nikopol Trilogy from Bilal. Also Aquablue, De Capes et de Crocs, or Blacksad.

Speaking of mangas and slice of life, Yokohama Kadaishi Kiko blows everything out of the water. Gently.

[alguien]

I think most of the posters in this thread are just ignorant of European comics (not an insult, just a statement of facts)

This is very true. Several months ago I went to France for the first time ever. The family I was staying with had LOADS of graphic novels of every stripe all over their house. I was more than a bit curious about them and they took me to a local bookstore chain in Paris.

All I can say is whoa. There are TONS of comics we in the US (as a whole) have no idea ever existed. And they all seem really, really cool.

I can't remember any off the top of my head but one called IRS? Which makes the Internal Revenue Service actually look like an awesome job. :)

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Yeah, my exposure to European comics pretty much consists of 2000 A.D., Asterix, Tin-Tin and a handful of Moebius's work.

[Errant Bard]

I can't remember any off the top of my head but one called IRS? Which makes the Internal Revenue Service actually look like an awesome job. :)

Yeah, IR$ It's translated, too.

I don't particularly like it, it feels too mechanical, cold, but it's a successful title nonetheless.

One funny thing is how, when you dive down into European comics, you notice the fascination America holds for most. From Pin-Up to Blueberry passing by the Unnamables which, for all its asian covers, features US army guys or (heh) Buck Danny, the USA shape our secondary worlds.

Sometimes I think that the contrast between this fantasied America and reality is what hurts most, for some.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Yeah, IR$ It's translated, too. I don't particularly like it, it feels too mechanical, cold, but it's a successful title nonetheless. One funny thing is how, when you dive down into European comics, you notice the fascination America holds for most. From Pin-Up to Blueberry passing by the Unnamables which, for all its asian covers, features US army guys or (heh) Buck Danny, the USA shape our secondary worlds. Sometimes I think that the contrast between this fantasied America and reality is what hurts most, for some.

Delving even further into that, it's pretty interesting that a medium that was more or less invented here is dominated by British writers. Kind of our secret shame, really.

[Errant Bard]

Delving even further into that, it's pretty interesting that a medium that was more or less invented here is dominated by British writers. Kind of our secret shame, really.

Dominated? How so?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Dominated? How so?

This thread is a pretty good example. The most commonly mentioned names are Moore, Morrison, Gaiman and Ennis. All British writers. I think you'll find that those 4 figure prominently in just about any conversation of current greats in the field.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

These two probably belong on my list of personal favorites moreso than "greatest of alltime", but here goes.

Loves me some Denny O'Neil. Particularly his old Green Latern/Green Arrow and Batman stuff with Neal Adams and his early run on The Question with Denys Cowan. He's really adept at portraying the psychological motivations of his protagonists. I believe it was his portrayal of Batman that mostly inspired Miller's Dark Knight vision of the character.

Loved Walt Simonson's run on Thor in the late 80's to early 90's. He really did a great job of paying homage to both the Norse Myths and Lee/Kirby's psychedelic vision of Asgard. Fun stuff.

[Errant Bard]

This thread is a pretty good example. The most commonly mentioned names are Moore, Morrison, Gaiman and Ennis. All British writers. I think you'll find that those 4 figure prominently in just about any conversation of current greats in the field.

Oh, by "here" you meant USA, and by "medium" you meant US comics. Right. Sorry for that. (You quoting something about European comics to say that was pretty confusing)

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Oh, by "here" you meant USA, and by "medium" you meant US comics. Right. Sorry for that. (You quoting something about European comics to say that was pretty confusing)

Sorry, I'm not much of a writer I'm afraid. The reason I quoted your post was to highlight your point regarding the fascination that America holds for writers of European comics.

[polishgenius]

The British domination of high-level American comics is pretty remarkable, but it was generated by a remarkable set of circumstances in the British scene in the 80s (AD2000 and all that) and isn't being followed up to anywhere near that level (though, really, Ellis isn't of that set, making his breakthrough in the late 90s). If you look at the later ranks of breakthrough writers likely to be pushing the genre in years to come, they're mostly American; Vaughn, Simone, Azzarello, Bendis, Hickman, Johns (especially Johns, in superhero comics especially). Though you do have Lemire, who is Canadian, and Carey, who's English. Oh, and Mark Millar, much as I find him irritating, but I tend to think he's largely following in the footsteps of Ellis and Ennis and not doing it nearly as well.

Also; I think European comics are starting to gain traction in the English language now, thanks to the ever-increasing popularity of European-style non-superhero work. Where once you really had one or two at a time, mostly at Vertigo, making real waves, now there's lots, and classic French and Belgian work is getting reprints as a result.

[mormont]

Curious if you could give examples. Mind you, my intention is not to prove you wrong, I find myself leaning back to Moore I am just interested in hearing people talk about the craft wrt the medium.

thanks,

Sci

Happily, Tor.com are doing a Moore reread which touches on some of these points.

I think most of these points can be demonstrated just by looking at Moore's bibliography. In terms of range, Moore's shown some skill in writing in a wide range of styles: humour (DR & Quinch, The Bojeffries Saga), period pieces with a twist (From Hell, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen), psychodrama (A Small Killing), pastiche (1963), revisionist superheroics (Watchmen, Miracleman) erotica (Lost Girls), sci-fi (The Ballad of Halo Jones, Skizz), supernatural stories (Swamp Thing, Promethea) and interpretations of comics icons (The Killing Joke, Whatever Happened to the Man of Steel?) He's successfully created his own characters, radically reworked others (to the point of reinvention), but also shown the ability to work with the constraints of existing characters (or other constraints) to tell his own stories.

On these projects, he's worked with artists as varied as Oscar Zarate, Rick Veitch, Dave Gibbons, Kevin O'Neill, Brian Bolland, and Eddie Campbell: and with Moore, he usually works very closely with the artist, mostly because his scripts are notoriously detailed and structured, full of symbolism and allusions. Look at Watchmen: done without thought bubbles or sound effects, with a standardised nine-panel layout and a deliberately muted colour palette, contrasted with the vivid colours of the interjected pirate strip, which references and parallels the ongoing events of the story. And so on.

Not every story Moore has written was definitive in the genres he was working in, of course - but as definitive works in UK/American comics go, a list that includes Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Miracleman, The Killing Joke, V For Vendetta, From Hell and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is hard to beat.

[Errant Bard]

Sorry, I'm not much of a writer I'm afraid. The reason I quoted your post was to highlight your point regarding the fascination that America holds for writers of European comics.

It however contradicted your point about domination, since UK is really a small part of Europe, and all the titles I mentioned have franco/belgian/czek/spanish authors; that was why I was confused. (I thought you were talking of the global market, thus including Europe and Japan in it. In which case any claim of US comics domination would be... odd)

[The Imp's Advocate]

The story itself, likewise, may flow well enough, but in the end it does not have much substance beyond slice of life antics of a girl growing up. No parable, no message, no real depth, but mild entertainment. I compared it to standard fare manga, and the more I think about it, the more it's fitting. To put him on the same level as the likes of Bilal, Moebius, Tezuka or Urazawa is like saying Joanne Rowling is at the same level as Samuel Beckett.

Are you reading the same webcomic as me? The one with the trickster god, mysterious conspiracies, and god-knows-what-else going on in the court? All that is wrapped around the story of Annie growing up, and it's told slowly and pretty goddamn masterfully. God knows I love Harry Potter, but Rowling had the subtlety of a hammer when it came to measuring out plot and story (she did fine with the horcruxes, but the Hallows and the wand thing just felt tacked on).

It doesn't need to be a parable or have a message, and I suppose it is "just entertainment," but I'm a sucker for a good story well told. And it is very well told.

Somewhat, but at the same time, it's nothing special, he's one among many. Starting in 2005, he's not even among the first, by years. Of the top of my head, I was reading MegaTokyo, Exploitation Now or Order of the Stick way before (2000 and 2003). Scott McCloud treatise on webcomics was in 2000 too.

The impact is only by virtue of being part of movement that was already in motion, but I don't think you can he's special because he's participating like every other webcomic author.

Hmm. Yeah, you have me here, I didn't check when Gunnerkrigg Court started, I thought it started earlier than it did. But he is more than one among many, he's one of a very few who make webcomics at the level of professionalism and quality that he does.

And okay, so the quality of the writing and art so far wouldn't get it put on an all-time great list of comics next to, say, Watchmen or The Sandman. But it feels so personal and fully-formed, an utterly unique little gem that I guess I give it extra weight.

[Jaxom 1974]

um.. I also find Terry Moore and J Michael Straczynski to write up some damn fine comics... and CLAMP are queens of manga (even if in last 5 years they've basically become fanfic versions of themselves)

I've already professed my love for Terry Moore. But I take exception to your inclusion of JMS. I can't claim to have read his Spider-Man stuff, but too many of his other projects just flat out blew. Rising Stars was awful, Supreme Power had potential, but something went wrong...He's never been one who had, for me, translated well into the comics genre even as his television work was very good...

Loved Walt Simonson's run on Thor in the late 80's to early 90's. He really did a great job of paying homage to both the Norse Myths and Lee/Kirby's psychedelic vision of Asgard. Fun stuff.

Good call. I wanted to add this and forgot.

[Chise]

But I take exception to your inclusion of JMS.

hmm.. maybe try his Thor reboot from couple years ago? ...

[Errant Bard]

And okay, so the quality of the writing and art so far wouldn't get it put on an all-time great list of comics next to, say, Watchmen or The Sandman.

It's all I wanted to say. :thumbsup: (With the caveat that Watchmen and Sandman don't rank that high in my personal list)