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Who do you want to win the Iron Throne?

Iron Throne

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#221 FacelessDude

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:41 PM

View PostThe Ghost and the Hound, on 07 March 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

I'm surprised so many people favor a ruler who sacrifices people on the altar of flames to satisfy his God.

The chap I believe who will take the throne by the end of the series is Hodor. And here is the evidence:



All you need is for him to be asked by any or all characters, "Who do you think should be king?" "Hodor!" he will say

:bowdown: Hail to the Hodor! :bowdown:
Hodor being the current king would be Littlefinger's dream...

#222 NedStark2013

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:39 PM

I thinks I'm For Stannis with Jon Snow as Hand Of The King. and Gendry Baratheon would be a member of the kings Guard for he is Roberts Son and probably most noble person they could find.

#223 JLE

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:17 PM

If Jon Snow is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then - unlike many of the other bastards around (including Robert's progeny), he's noble on *both* sides. And of course he's quite literally serving the realm as a whole rather than taking any side in its internal disputes.

Of course if he's Eddard's own son as per Eddard's official statements, then his mother is not disclosed, unless it's either (a) Lady Ashara Dayne, which he denies absolutely, or ( B) the lowborn Wylla, whose name Eddard mentioned to Robert early on but has since been revealed only as Jon Snow's wetnurse (though of course this does not preclude her also being the mother.)

Daenerys is technically "legitimate" as a daughter of Aerys, but she's a child of incest (and probably incestuous rape), and much of the story revolves around how the Targaryens had no real respect for either god or man, and how incest is cursed by gods and men. In any case, the Targaryen claim to the throne was no more legitimate than Robert's, both being based on conquest, force and fear, except it was three hundred years older. (And the Stark claim to be King in the North is older still.) And that has been three hundred years in which they have had a rare few good kings, a whole lot more bad kings, a whole load of incest which would have been prohibited with any other family, and several more buckets of madness which would have probably had the Targs dethroned long ago if it wasn't for the fear of what they might be able to do (fear of the dragons would persist long after the last dragon died, and it takes the defiance of Robert's Rebellion - and possibly the preceding Defiance of Duskendale - to break that fear.)

Aegon, if he is who he is purported to be, has a claim both via descent from Rhaegar and Aerys, would come ahead of Dany in the line of succession, *and* doesn't have the stigma of incestuous parentage since his mother was Elia Martell. However, there are questions about his true parentage.

Stannis is the legitimate heir of Robert by any definition *other* than the definition of conquest. However, even if he were accepted as King by the whole kingdom, it would only postpone the dispute rather than resolve it - his daughter being disfigured by greyscale, may be still sick, will never find a husband, and he seems to be sufficiently estranged from his wife (and, indeed, from the whole business of being married - he really ought to be one of life's permanent singletons) that he will not sire a son by her, yet he does not formally divorce her to remarry either: so Stannis will not have a legitimate son, and thus would never have had any heirs but his brother. And Renly is now dead - not that *he* was likely to sire any heirs either, given his own preferences (which are not just a creation of the TV show, since Stannis himself alludes to them... Renly: "She came to me a maid, you know". Stannis: "And in your bed she's likely to remain that way." Evidently Stannis knows well enough that Renly does not prefer women.) Although he might have eventually managed to have one child by Margaery, but as things turned out, he didn't.

So, even were there a peaceful resolution to the fight for the Iron Throne, there would be no heirs beyond Stannis and Renly for the Baratheon family, so who would be next in line? Evidently a lot of arguments, and possibly another fight.

To be honest, it would have been better if the Lannisters had taken the throne "by right of conquest" as Robert did, and put Tywin on the throne himself, rather than try to carry on with the pretence that Joffrey was a Baratheon and rule through him. Mind you, the reason Tywin didn't do that was almost certainly that otherwise, that would make Tyrion his heir (which actually might not have been a bad idea for the kingdom), since Jaime had joined the Kingsguard and thus disqualified himself from noble position. Alternatively, Tywin could have taken the throne, officially disowned Tyrion (as Randall Tarly did with Samwell even though Samwell was the elder son) while passing him off with the job of Hand or Master of Whispers, and named Kevan his heir, and after him, Lancel. Disowning Tyrion and giving him a job would actually have been kinder than keeping him around and continually humiliating him.

Then Eddard would have had to be thrown down (imprisoned and possibly sent to the Wall - Tywin would have chosen the latter, to prevent a Stark/Tully rebellion), but the Kingdom would at least have an able ruler (Tywin), an able Hand (Tyrion), and a clear line of succession (Tywin I, Kevin I, Lancel I). Gregor Clegane could even then have been safely sacrificed to the wrath of the Tullys and Martells for his misdeeds, the Tyrells bought off with a marriage to Lancel who would then be crown prince (in turn, depriving Renly of his biggest supporter), and the Starks could be left alone in the north (with Eddard at the Wall and Robb in Winterfell).

You could actually say that the biggest fool in the whole series is Tywin - for exactly that decision, choosing to try and rule through the cloak of legitimacy rather than claiming right of conquest and starting a new dynasty which could theoretically end up with a "legitimacy" of its own if it lasted long enough. When you're going to try and steal power, sometimes it's better to admit it rather than pretend there's any right on your side.

Edited by JLE, 24 March 2013 - 03:21 PM.


#224 Sam Huxley

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 03:41 PM

If Tywin had turned up at KL and sat down on the Iron Throne and said, "I'm the King now" I don't think the leaders of the other Great Houses would have just sat by and let that happen, ever.  The only reason the realm was whole when Robert sat the throne was because he united the Seven Kingdoms after his rebellion.  Tywin can't just watch his King die, and then proclaim himself King of the Seven Kingdoms when there is a clear heir to the throne, be it Joffrey or Stannis.  Tywin, ruling through his grandson is King in all but name because Joffrey will listen to his grandfather, even if he won't listen to anyone else.

#225 xSilence

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 04:37 PM

I'm for Euron haha... now everyone hates me :P

#226 vjott

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

View PostJLE, on 24 March 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

If Jon Snow is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then - unlike many of the other bastards around (including Robert's progeny), he's noble on *both* sides. And of course he's quite literally serving the realm as a whole rather than taking any side in its internal disputes.

Of course if he's Eddard's own son as per Eddard's official statements, then his mother is not disclosed, unless it's either (a) Lady Ashara Dayne, which he denies absolutely, or ( B) the lowborn Wylla, whose name Eddard mentioned to Robert early on but has since been revealed only as Jon Snow's wetnurse (though of course this does not preclude her also being the mother.)

Yes, I agree with this. As you've said, he's serving the realm without taking sides and I think he should, and will, continue to do so. Jon isn't good at playing politics and the game for the Iron Throne is the most politically complex taking place in Westeros.

View PostJLE, on 24 March 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Daenerys is technically "legitimate" as a daughter of Aerys, but she's a child of incest (and probably incestuous rape), and much of the story revolves around how the Targaryens had no real respect for either god or man, and how incest is cursed by gods and men. In any case, the Targaryen claim to the throne was no more legitimate than Robert's, both being based on conquest, force and fear, except it was three hundred years older. (And the Stark claim to be King in the North is older still.) And that has been three hundred years in which they have had a rare few good kings, a whole lot more bad kings, a whole load of incest which would have been prohibited with any other family, and several more buckets of madness which would have probably had the Targs dethroned long ago if it wasn't for the fear of what they might be able to do (fear of the dragons would persist long after the last dragon died, and it takes the defiance of Robert's Rebellion - and possibly the preceding Defiance of Duskendale - to break that fear.)

Aegon, if he is who he is purported to be, has a claim both via descent from Rhaegar and Aerys, would come ahead of Dany in the line of succession, *and* doesn't have the stigma of incestuous parentage since his mother was Elia Martell. However, there are questions about his true parentage.
The situation with Daenerys is quite complex. Her ancestors reigned over Westeros via conquest. Before this conquest, Westeros was separated into relatively autonomous kingdoms. Therefore Westeros in its current form belongs to the Targaryen dynasty. If the seven kingdoms were to split up, then I'd say that they were up for grabs by the most powerful house of each region. The Baratheon reign was via rebellion and judging the legitimacy of that would be difficult. Even Stannis admitted he needed to assess his loyalties before joining Robert. I don't believe that the game of thrones is about legitimacy to reign but who has the most power and skill as Westeros has once again entered a period of unrest with the Northern Kingdom seeking its old autonomy.

As a ruler, I believe Daenerys to be quite unfit as she continues to move from folly to folly and she has never known Westeros, its culture or its political environment.

View PostJLE, on 24 March 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

Stannis is the legitimate heir of Robert by any definition *other* than the definition of conquest. However, even if he were accepted as King by the whole kingdom, it would only postpone the dispute rather than resolve it - his daughter being disfigured by greyscale, may be still sick, will never find a husband, and he seems to be sufficiently estranged from his wife (and, indeed, from the whole business of being married - he really ought to be one of life's permanent singletons) that he will not sire a son by her, yet he does not formally divorce her to remarry either: so Stannis will not have a legitimate son, and thus would never have had any heirs but his brother. And Renly is now dead - not that *he* was likely to sire any heirs either, given his own preferences (which are not just a creation of the TV show, since Stannis himself alludes to them... Renly: "She came to me a maid, you know". Stannis: "And in your bed she's likely to remain that way." Evidently Stannis knows well enough that Renly does not prefer women.) Although he might have eventually managed to have one child by Margaery, but as things turned out, he didn't.

So, even were there a peaceful resolution to the fight for the Iron Throne, there would be no heirs beyond Stannis and Renly for the Baratheon family, so who would be next in line? Evidently a lot of arguments, and possibly another fight.
I don't believe that to necessarily be the case. If Stannis becomes king he may try again to have another child by his wife or take another wife if his current one can't give him any more children. It's not a big deal, really. Stannis' rule would be just and righteous as long as Melisandre isn't there alongside him, burning his enemies to death. As I've noted before, I don't think the contest for the Throne is about legitimacy but prowess instead.

Your idea about what Tywin ought to have done is a bit odd. I don't think the other houses would allow it. Currently, the Lannisters have no business anywhere near the Throne

#227 Whoresbane Umber

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:21 PM

stannis

#228 Cory

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:26 PM

Erin, pretty much all targs were born of incest with the exception of rheagar (only to fulfill a supposed prophecy)
And they were all legitimate

#229 ACB

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:11 AM

As someone said somewhere across these twelve pages of comments, I think that at some point, the iron throne will not be the most important thing. I think the battle between the Ice and Fire or on other words between the people of Westeros and the criatures behind the Wall  will be more important.

However, regarding the Iron Throne... It is very complicated to say who has the right to the Throne because every family in the book have conquered the Throne through battle at same point. However, conquer through battle is the right way to conquer a kingdom as we can see so many times across the mankind history.

So, lets think in Families.

I don't think any Lannister should sit on Iron Throne. The Cersei's sons are not Baratheon... Cersei herself is a lit bit made and her personality kind a disapointed me... She is not a master planner but just a "girl" who want to prove herself to the other people. Jaime is a warrior and not a king. I think Tyrion would be a good king but I don't think that is the reght palce for him and as I said, he has no right to sit there.

Regarding the Starks, they also don't have any rights to the Throne. Maybe Jon is Rhaegar's son but she will be a bastard anyway... Arya, Sansa, Bran and even Rickon, they all have magic and I I think that there part will be very important but their place is on the North. Besids, they could be good kings but not happy kings.

Now, the Baratheons... I think that maybe Stannis will sit in the Iron Throne at some point but I'm not sure if he will stay there for a long time. He is too rigid to be a king I think. And he act like he is the commander but I think that Melisandre is the one who is command everything. Regardless, he is Robert's rightfull heir.

The Targaryens... Well I think Daenerys has what is need to be a good Queen. She is the Targaryes heir and I also think that she is the only one capable of unit the Seven Kingdoms. However, there is a problem  with Daenerys. She can not have childrens... So, maybe she would be a good Queen but who will succeed her?

#230 Cory

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:46 AM

Regarding dany, she is baron for now. I have my own theory for how the magei's phrophecy will be fufilled. Also, like I said there could always be another player GRRM hadn't told us about.
Plot twist. Vary's sits the throne, little finger hand lmao

#231 Are You Being Cerseious?

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:46 AM

POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR END OF FFC

I think that the major conflicts in the last two books are going to be this..

Martell's attack from the south (i didn't fully understand what Doran martell's plan is at the end of the book) but I think that the Martell's are gonna attack.

Then the Greyjoy's are going to be attacking from the West, which they already are.

Then the Other's are going to be attacking from the North.

And then Daenerys is going to be attacking from the East.

So it's like Westeros is surrounded by enemies... along with all of the inner conflicts that it is dealing with.

Edited by reddevilswhiteghosts, 29 March 2013 - 09:47 AM.


#232 zeus

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:43 PM

stannis

Feel like he does whats good for the realm and not his own personal agenda

Edited by zeus, 02 April 2013 - 08:44 PM.


#233 Lady Jenny of Austraatt

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:38 PM

Am I the only one who think GRRM have ruined the chance for a lot of the characters?
Daenerys is queen in Meereen and given up Westeros for a moment (she will attack, no dobt),
Stannis is weak being controlled by Melissandre all the time (my opinion),
Jon is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and can't wed and father children (no succeeder) or hold lands (unless he is a deserter) which strides against Jon's moral compass,
Arya as a novice in Braavos and to become a faceless man,
We haven't heard from Gendry in a long time and I know there are theories him being AAR (your opinion about that).

I think it will end in a giant battle were everybody dies, even though it would be an easy solution,
OR, we could have some small character with no big important role so far and GRRM will explain it with such cleverness it was the right answer after all (Poirot-style)

#234 oneortheother

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:39 AM

Much as I adore Stannis, I think he just wouldn't make a very good leader in Westeros. Great warriors do not always make great rulers. Even if Stannis would be a competent ruler, the common people would never like him (due to his personality) and him preaching his foreign religion would alienate the devout. As a subscriber to R+L=J, I think considering how wise a leader Jon Snow has been shown to be as LC (aside from the whole getting stabbed thing), he would have my vote. He understands how difficult it is trying to keep everyone happy, he's bastardy keeps him humble and has given him an understanding for the less fortunate and he's coldly pragmatic and fair at the same time.

#235 TommenLannister

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:06 PM

Am I the only one who thinks Tommen might be not that bad on the Iron Throne?
I mean, of course Cersei should not be the Queet Regent, but if Mace Tyrell or Kevan Lannister shall stand by his side until he's fully grown, I believe Tommen has a pretty good shot as a king!

#236 Harry the Heirry

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:45 AM

Bronn. Just cuz.

Nah, Stannis all the way. Legally the heir, actually has an idea of what a king is supposed to do, unlike his competitors. Alternatively, Dany, though I think she has too much of a  tendency to get emotionally attached to something to be an effective queen, at least at first.

Or, just divvie up the Seven Kingdoms into eight. King of the Stormlands, King of the Riverlands, King of the Westerlands, King of the Reach, King of the Vale, King of the Iron Islands, King of the North, Prince of Dorne... It'd just be so much simpler if they could all just have their own little thrones to sit on, right?

And as for Jon, I do not think he'd do well on the Iron Throne. He's too much his father's son to be effective in that kind of setting. Stannis is at least more willing to "do what is necessary" in terms of keeping the throne.

Edited by Harry the Heirry, 16 April 2013 - 10:50 AM.




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