304 replies to this topic

[danro]

sciborg2, on 06 January 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Was thinking about Watchmen:

Spoiler

<p><br></p><p>Does anybody buy this idea of the woman falling in love with the guy who tried to rape her? There is no reason for the mother to love the Comedian that I remember.</p>

Spoiler

How did you figure she was in love with him? That's not how I read it at all.

Is it so odd that the original Spectre, with 30 years to put things in perspective, may see the Comedian as more than just her rapist?
Is it her duty as a victim to hate every aspect of him forever? Can't she move on?

[Sci-2]

danro - i think it is mentioned specifically by Dr. Manhattan.

[alguien]

Morrison is kind of right about Alan Moore.  I mean, enjoy his writing, but he has some pretty peculiar and consistent violent sex in his stories.

Watchmen. Killing Joke. V for Vendetta. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Have any of you read his latest Lovecraftian-inspired comic series?

Holy shit...

[Callan S.]

sciborg2, on 06 January 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Was thinking about Watchmen:

Spoiler

<p><br></p><p>Does anybody buy this idea of the woman falling in love with the guy who tried to rape her? There is no reason for the mother to love the Comedian that I remember.</p>

I think you make a claim of your own here, Sci, but you focus the spotlight onto anyone elses claim that its possible?

Why not state your own claim that you think such a situation is impossible?

Frankly I'd prefer if it was impossible and if I found out it was impossible, I'd be pleased and gratified. Sadly I don't think I'm going to find that out.

[Sci-2]

Callan S., on 12 February 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

I think you make a claim of your own here, Sci, but you focus the spotlight onto anyone elses claim that its possible?

Why not state your own claim that you think such a situation is impossible?

Frankly I'd prefer if it was impossible and if I found out it was impossible, I'd be pleased and gratified. Sadly I don't think I'm going to find that out.

I'm not even sure what you're saying here, but I think that level of characterization, that change of heart, requires something in the text to justify it. I don't recall seeing it, but on the chance my memory's flawed I figured I'd ask if I missed something.

All to say, I do learn something from your methods of reason as well as intellectual honesty. (why I frequently sign my real name to posts)

-Sci aka Saajan

[Sci-2]

alguien, on 08 February 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Morrison is kind of right about Alan Moore.  I mean, enjoy his writing, but he has some pretty peculiar and consistent violent sex in his stories.

Watchmen. Killing Joke. V for Vendetta. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Have any of you read his latest Lovecraftian-inspired comic series?

Holy shit...

Heh, yeah, was nonsense. Sort entertaining outside the creepy rape stuff, but it fit the bill for classic horror movie stupidity to a T.

[Callan S.]

sciborg2, on 13 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

I'm not even sure what you're saying here, but I think that level of characterization, that change of heart, requires something in the text to justify it. I don't recall seeing it, but on the chance my memory's flawed I figured I'd ask if I missed something.

All to say, I do learn something from your methods of reason as well as intellectual honesty. (why I frequently sign my real name to posts)

-Sci aka Saajan

Then hi, Saajan!

Ah, I asked at Bakkers blog whether I should keep calling you Sci or Saajan, as I wasn't sure what to do, but I think the post got lost in the tumult (and wordpress's comments system breaking down!)

On topic, well it really depends on whether your asking if it's possible in reality, or whether by the laws of genre conventions it's possible. Ironically something can be possible in the former and yet impossible in the latter. Truth being stranger than fiction and all that.

It might very well be that in terms of genre, there can be no justification for that change of heart. Yet it may be possible in real life. Genres often don't care about what's possible in real life.

Edited by Callan S., 13 February 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Grack21]

Sounds like Outlander to me!


Have I mentioned how much I loath that book? I have? Well I LOATH THAT BOOK.

[kalbear]

Whether something is possible or not doesn't make it more or less repugnant. It's certainly possible that you and your friend are out camping when you run across two penthouse women playfully having a splash fight naked in a pond and then ask you and your friend to join them in mindblowing sex. That's a possibility that could occur. It's more interesting to note what it implies about the author, how fantastical it really is and whose fantasies they actually are.

[Callan S.]

Kalbear, on 13 February 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Whether something is possible or not doesn't make it more or less repugnant.

See, this is the blurring of fiction and reality into a single 'it'. "doesn't make it more or less repugnant". Which 'it'? The one that could possibly happen in reality, or fiction published with that scenario in it? Finding them both repugnant in the same way would be a madness.

Quote

It's certainly possible that you and your friend are out camping when you run across two penthouse women playfully having a splash fight naked in a pond and then ask you and your friend to join them in mindblowing sex. That's a possibility that could occur. It's more interesting to note what it implies about the author, how fantastical it really is and whose fantasies they actually are.

Also what it implies about the reader.

I'll grant that there is alot of media out there which wouldn't depict a scene because the author felt it a genuine narrative path, but instead to write a bit of porn. Sad thing is, that in the minds of many readers such a majority seems to damn by association, well, everyone else who looks similar.

Edited by Callan S., 13 February 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Sci-2]

I think when the entire final act of a book hinges on a change of heart, and the stated near impossibility of that change in the text itself, I'd expect some justification as to why it happened.

[Shryke]

Are we still talking about Watchmen?

I found the women in question and her feelings easily believable. Some people are ... I don't know, damaged? I never got the impression her feelings were supposed to be healthy or anything.

[SeanF]

Kalbear, on 13 February 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Whether something is possible or not doesn't make it more or less repugnant. It's certainly possible that you and your friend are out camping when you run across two penthouse women playfully having a splash fight naked in a pond and then ask you and your friend to join them in mindblowing sex. That's a possibility that could occur. It's more interesting to note what it implies about the author, how fantastical it really is and whose fantasies they actually are.

Are you implying that that's unusual?

[DanielAbraham]

For me, the important thing to recognize about Watchmen is that it's a grotesque.  The whole thing is a poison pen letter to superhero comic books and people who like them.  I think the original Silk Spectre's relationship to her rapist was built that way *because* it was disturbing and awful and repulsive, just like everything else in the series.

The older I get, the more I think Alan Moore's special genius is that he's achieved success by trying to make things too punishing to read and failing.

[Sci-2]

Newton on his own novel trilogy:

http://markcnewton.c...gs-i-got-wrong/

Quote

I didn’t try hard enough with female characters in the first novel, though I think I got better in City of Ruin. Previously they were too reliant upon the male characters, or simply weren’t strong enough in their own right. I believe a writer can try to justify why they do things, but ultimately – in a genre where one can do anything – the results speak for themselves. I hold up my hand on this. I’ll try to do better.

It took me a while to genuinely understand that ‘gritty’ does not equal ‘mature’. This is a big thing for me: when did we become a genre obsessed with violence? Surely (said to myself), I can write an adult book without resorting to writing about so much bloodshed. I think I could also say that a book being macho is not necessarily adult either, even though I’m sure we blokes sometimes believe that (I’ll hold my hand up again here.) There’s a whole other blog post to be made on what makes something adult, but I’ve not quite worked that one out yet.

Also, though I may (surprisingly) not be in line with his position I do largely agree with him:

http://markcnewton.c...hors-get-wrong/

Quote

You may choose to pass off books as entertainment, but that is not an excuse for accidental misogyny or racism, because readers – especially younger readers – may think that such treatment of people is the norm. I do think authors have some responsibility to influence what the perceived norm can be.

Edited by sciborg2, 21 February 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Sci-2]

Keeping a running tab of resources:

The peeps on Watt's blog had some interesting discussion on rape cultureand Daniel Abraham has an interesting idea in his The Dogs Project.

More from Abraham w/ respect to the movie Malice

Edited by sciborg2, 24 February 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[Callan S.]

sciborg2, on 13 February 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

I think when the entire final act of a book hinges on a change of heart, and the stated near impossibility of that change in the text itself, I'd expect some justification as to why it happened.

See, to do a certain type of reasoning (of which one doesn't have to), you need to catch that 'some justification' and realise it is not 'justification'.

Within that certain reasoning frame, it is simply justifying it to you. And within that certain reasoning frame, the question is, why would the idiosyncratic method of justification you use matter? Over a thousand or hundred thousand other readers, how come your particular justification method somehow has to be appeased?

True, even within that reasoning frame one can just state an aesthetic dislike: "I just didn't like it".

But that's about it.

[Sci-2]

I guess I think it's more than a matter of taste. Characters should have justified reasons for their behavior.

Comics annoy me for that reason - strong women suddenly caving when the need for a damsel in distress comes along.

Infinite Crisis had that problem, I'm sure we can find others. (Not to mention the general problem of Women in Refrigerators).

[Callan S.]

Quote

Comics annoy me for that reason - strong women suddenly caving when the need for a damsel in distress comes along.

I think Disciple Manning would appreciate the cynicism here!

The way you pitch it, it's just a need for a damsel in distress, always.

Saajan, I also think that you do often get exploitative writers, looking for an old hot button to press.

But does it need to be justified, or have you just stopped trusting? Stopped having a little faith that someone isn't just trying to exploit those old hot buttons?

Where has something not been justified to you in the text, but you've taken a leap of faith the authors trying to get to something important? A bit of 'I don't get it, it doesn't make sense to me right now, but I think he's trying to get somewhere with this'?

If you want to say there are too many exploitative writers out there to trust any of them like that, I could actually more than understand such a position. But it's worth keeping in mind it's not the genuine authors fault that there are alot of exploiters out there.

[kalbear]

Quote

But does it need to be justified, or have you just stopped trusting? Stopped having a little faith that someone isn't just trying to exploit those old hot buttons?

When a specific author has only one (of many, many many) works that do not have the lead woman be a product of rape or get raped or be saved from rape, the trust gets removed in favor of critical thinking. If Watchmen was done by itself it probably wouldn't get a lot of press - even now - because it was a mocking of the very morality-pure comic books. When you do it in every thing you write, it becomes more of a theme of the books Moore writes. It's less to do with other authors and more to do with Moore's predilections and re-examining his works based on that.