The depiction of LGBT characters in fiction

[Sci-2]

This is me spawning a new thread off of the Violence and Sexual Assault thread, born because I was curious about how LGBT members reviewed the books The Steel Remains and The Cold Commands.

Additionally, as food for thought, I am going to link to Ars Marginal's Queer Tropes by Neo-Prodigy.

Finally, one character that I think is possibly of interest to discuss is Bakker's Cnauir.

ETA: I apologize if I am identifying her incorrectly, but as I believe she is a member of the LGBT community here is Moon's review of The Steel Remains.

ETA II: Because the book is an absolute shit stain of a disaster, her review of Melusine.

[Axiomatic]

Having looked over the Queer Tropes, I find it even harder to understand what your problem is with Ringil and Archeth. There are no Mythical Straight Boy Unicorns, Ringil doesn't need a heterosexual to save him from other prejudiced bigots, and he's not the main character's BFF because he IS the main character.

[Verboten]

My problem's with the Steel Remains without any spoilers? Mainly the way that Ringil constantly mentions that HE'S GAY and SUCKS COCKS every other page. Straight people don't sit around thinking about their sexuality all of the time and once I got somewhat comfortable with who I am I don't either. It's a part of me and it will always be there. Mentioning it all of th time seems like a cheap way to tell the readers he's gay instead of showing it and it seems like someone trying to oversell it to makes themselves seem open-minded (you have no idea how annoying it is to be constantly reassured that someone who obviously is uncomfortable around doesn't CARE about your sexuality or how refreshing it is to meet those people who genuinely don't think or act like it matters) and quite frankly seems a bit ridiculous. I love the fact that a gay male character even exists at all but the execution leaves something to be desired.

[Verboten]

In short it's acceptable but it's not good enough, it feels too much like the author is trying to emphasize how amazing and gritty he is by including a gay character. It's nice but it's not to the point where sexuality is no longer considered a huge deal that alters your personality forever.

This sums up my feelings nicely: Hi I’m the gay guy. I’m gay, did I mention I’m gay. Gay is me. Wanna know who’s gay? I’m gay. I’m the gay guy. You look like you didn’t know that I’m gay. What’s gayer than gay? Me. Gay guy here. Did you know I’m gay? Let me mention that I’m gay. No I really should mention I’m gay. Did someone say gay? I’m gay. It’s been 30 seconds since the last announcement but in case it may have slipped your mind, I’m gay. Yeah I know, I’m the gay guy.Did I mention I’m gay? This is usually followed by rainbows, techno music, references to Broadway, and/or gay iconic actresses, you know to show how authentically gay the character is. Sorta similar to how writers will have black characters use the latest urban slang and emulate what they’ve seen on MTV/BET to show how authentically black they are.

[Contrarius]

But, Verboten -- in the other thread you specifically said that the gay characters in TSR were "lacking". What exactly were they "lacking"? Are you just saying that Ringil was too horny to fit your personal tastes?

And, hoping that Kalbear will jump in -- what is anti-LGBT in Morgan's description of the main characters?

[Axiomatic]

Ringil has the sort of personality where, once he figures out what the thing is that you don't want shoved in your face, he'll promptly shove it in your face really, really hard, and he'll keep doing it until you either fuck off or try and start a fight, at which point he'll kill you.

He just happens to live in a society where homosexuality is meant to be a dark and shameful secret, so naturally his first instinct is to do the exact opposite and dare everone to try and make something of it.

It's not limited to homosexuality, either - does the local inquisitor hate being reminded of his low-born origins? Ringil will naturally rub in those same origins every time he sees him. It's quite hilarious, really, how Ringil doesn't really care much about his high-born status right up to the point where he meets someone he doesn't like and whom he can seriously annoy by rubbing in his superior status.

[Sci-2]

Oh, I didn't hate TSR and I thought here and there it had some interesting things to say about violence and even class privilege. I agree with Verboten that there was a lot of mentions of how the main character was gay but it seemed to focus largely on Ringil's sex drive rather than his emotions.

Melusine, on the other hand, is gutter trash I could not get through. As much as a straight dude has validity saying it, this book was feels like some weird rape porn written for straight women looking to get off on gay men being raped. Total appropriation of sexual assault.

ETA: changed as I don't want to accuse the author of getting off on rape.

[Contrarius]

ETA: I apologize if I am identifying her incorrectly, but as I believe she is a member of the LGBT community here is Moon's review of The Steel Remains.

I know we're not supposed to rag on off-site comments, but I hope it's not too offensive for me to say that I think it's really funny that the only GOOD things she had to say about the book related to Morgan's depictions of the gay characters -- while one or two folks here are somehow trying to depict Morgan as anti-gay. ;)

[Contrarius]

Melusine, on the other hand, is gutter trash I could not get through. As much as a straight dude has validity saying it, this book was some weird rape porn written for straight women looking to get off on gay men being raped. Total appropriation of sexual assault.

If you couldn't get through it, you probably missed the parts I liked best -- all about Felix's insanity and Mildmay taking care of him.

[Sci-2]

I know we're not supposed to rag on off-site comments, but I hope it's not too offensive for me to say that I think it's really funny that the only GOOD things she had to say about the book related to Morgan's depictions of the gay characters -- while one or two folks here are somehow trying to depict Morgan as anti-gay. ;)

No minority community, or any community, is a monolith though. And her review is in line with Verboten's.

If you couldn't get through it, you probably missed the parts I liked best -- all about Felix's insanity and Mildmay taking care of him.

I may go back and skim if the library has it around. I don't hope for much. Funny, as some of her shorts are pieces I've liked.

[Contrarius]

No minority community, or any community, is a monolith though. And her review is in line with Verboten's.

Not really. I can't get too far into comparisons without getting slapped for discussing other sites -- but the other site praised the depiction, while Verboten condemns it.

I may go back and skim if the library has it around. I don't hope for much. Funny, as some of her shorts are pieces I've liked.

I love Monette's dense, layered writing style. The rapiness, OTOH, we could debate for a long time. ;)

[Nukelavee]

Why do these topics constantly focus on the same couple of books and writers? At least it seems that way to me.

Plus, the review of Steel Remains makes me want to choke the blogger, simply because.

edit-

Go read Bone Dance, by Bull, and Bad Voltage, by Littel. One features a hermaphrodite main character, the other a bi, leaning to gay, protagonist. Plus, both good stories.

[Sci-2]

If I can find a copy, I'll post something about Monette's work in the Violence + Sexual Assault thread.

[Seli]

Who are the genre writers that do well at depicting LGBT characters, and use them properly as well? The examples I can think of right now of can mostly use personal experience. Caitlín Kiernan (Red Tree, Silk), Hal Duncan (Vellum, which as far as I can remember has characters as sexualized as TSR). edit: Poppy Z. Brite (also in the genre works?)

[SkynJay]

Ringil's constant talk of his sex life reminded me of several hyper-sexual coworkers from my time in the restaurant industry. People who couldn't get through a shift without discussing their sex life. So I didn't see his behavior that unusual. (If anything, LESS vulgar than some of the people I worked with). So, very in your face, but not unheard of.

And a character I would like to here some thoughts on is Ruby from the last Cherie Priest novel. Done well or just thrown in?

[Contrarius]

Who are the genre writers that do well at depicting LGBT characters, and use them properly as well?

I dunno what qualifies as "properly".

In the Joe Pitt series, a lesbian character ends up being the moral center for the whole series. She isn't the main character, but she's one of the main secondaries.

[Sci-2]

Hal Duncan is awesome, and not only for his It Gets Better video.

Admittedly I have a whole hetero man crush on the guy, but Vellum is a great, if sprawling, work. And I do need to get Book 2. The gay characters, really all the characters, felt real to me even as they skipped through parallel worlds and time-space.

Reminds me I should go back to Book 1 while I have free time.

[Datepalm]

I know we're not supposed to rag on off-site comments, but I hope it's not too offensive for me to say that I think it's really funny that the only GOOD things she had to say about the book related to Morgan's depictions of the gay characters -- while one or two folks here are somehow trying to depict Morgan as anti-gay. ;)

Mod: The usual applies. Discussing something someone has written on the internet is perfectly fine and dandy. Turning it into a meta issue with some other site - the tone, the writer(s) themselves, their moderation politicies, etc, - off limits.

I'll drop a premtive warning to keep things cool and without personal attacks here as well.

[Seli]

I dunno what qualifies as "properly".

In the Joe Pitt series, a lesbian character ends up being the moral center for the whole series. She isn't the main character, but she's one of the main secondaries.

Don't know actually, who do you think did well?

I'll have to finish the Pitt books then, I've only read the first few.

[Contrarius]

Don't know actually, who do you think did well?

I think Morgan does pretty well, for one. ;) And yes, I actually agree that his "in-your-face"ness was a bit over the top at times, but I don't see that as having anything "lacking" or being in any way anti-LGBT.