291 replies to this topic

[Sci-2]

Wasn't the black dude in that show about city government with Michael J. Fox gay?

thinks it is sad how far he has to reach,

Sci

ETA: I really liked how homosexuality was handled in Iron Council, realize many disagree.

Edited by sciborg2, 24 December 2011 - 01:56 AM.

[Grack21]

I like how Robin Hobb handled it in her recent duology that's now 4 books because she lied. You really got the felling how much it must have sucked to be gay back in a medieval society. No idea how the LGBT felt about it though, although I think the like her other work? I dunno its late and I should be asleep.

[Roose Bolton's Pet Leech]

Grack21, on 24 December 2011 - 02:40 AM, said:

You really got the felling how much it must have sucked to be gay back in a medieval society.

In real life, homophobia is a comparatively recent development. With, for example, the Vikings, it was less an issue whether you were attracted to the same gender, and more whether you were the penetrator or the penetratee (a guy penetrating another guy? No problem. A guy getting penetrated by another guy? Haha, what a wuss). Later on, no-one really minded that much as long as your inclinations didn't interfere with hereditary succession. Richard the Lionheart, for instance, was gay, and it wasn't a life-or-death issue for anyone.

[Nukelavee]

I can just picture a gritty crusades type novel, with somebody leading the charge with a cry of "Donkey punch for Jesus!"

[Arthmail]

Roose Bolton, on 24 December 2011 - 04:21 AM, said:

In real life, homophobia is a comparatively recent development. With, for example, the Vikings, it was less an issue whether you were attracted to the same gender, and more whether you were the penetrator or the penetratee (a guy penetrating another guy? No problem. A guy getting penetrated by another guy? Haha, what a wuss). Later on, no-one really minded that much as long as your inclinations didn't interfere with hereditary succession. Richard the Lionheart, for instance, was gay, and it wasn't a life-or-death issue for anyone.

He might have been gay, or he might have been bisexual. There is something of a back and forth on this. But that it may have been covered up says something against your argument. If it was accepted, then his true sexuality would be easier to discern.

[Antonius Pius]

Grack21, on 24 December 2011 - 02:40 AM, said:

You really got the felling how much it must have sucked to be gay back in a medieval society.

Probably not as much as you might think, people in the middle ages weren't as prudish or judgmental as we tend to think.

Roose Bolton, on 24 December 2011 - 04:21 AM, said:

In real life, homophobia is a comparatively recent development. With, for example, the Vikings, it was less an issue whether you were attracted to the same gender, and more whether you were the penetrator or the penetratee (a guy penetrating another guy? No problem. A guy getting penetrated by another guy? Haha, what a wuss).

This was true for classical times also. Or at least Roman times.

Roose Bolton, on 24 December 2011 - 04:21 AM, said:

Later on, no-one really minded that much as long as your inclinations didn't interfere with hereditary succession. Richard the Lionheart, for instance, was gay, and it wasn't a life-or-death issue for anyone.

Actually, he wasn't. Or rather, there's no evidence to say he was. All we really know that he acknowledged a bastard son, and he was admonished by some churchmen for lechery. In favour of him being homosexual all we have is the following quote by Roger of Howden: "Philip so honoured him, that every day they ate at the same table, shared the same dish and at night the bed did not seperate them. Between the two of them there grew up so great an affection that King Henry was much alarmed, and afraid of what the future might hold in store, he decided to postpone his return to England until he knew what lay behind this sudden friendship." The context for this is that Richard has just joined Philip's side against Henry. This episode took place in 1187, after the Young King's death. It's meant as a political statements, a medieval version of a modern-day photo-opportunity. It's meant to signify unity of purpose, not indicate sexual preference. The kiss of peace was something similar. We have Henry, Louis, Young Henry, Richard and Philip all kissing away merrily in this period, but none of it means anything beside a public statement of policy.

/hijack

[Grack21]

Well, I should have said middle ages England. And if you really think things weren't bad for homosexuals back then.....I dunno what to tell you. Read more?

Pius just said everything I Care to say about Richard I. There no evidence at all for RIchard I's homosexuality.

[Sci-2]

Top 10 Lesbian Kisses of All Time

[Galleymac]

You also have to keep in mind that "homosexual" as a personal identity wasn't really a thing in the West until around 1892 when the term (hybrid Latin and Greek and therefore very annoying to A.E. Housman, at least according to "The Invention of Love") was coined. The activity had varying degrees of legality and illegality depending on time period, but (for example) the Puritans in the U.S. didn't think it was a thing you could *be* so much as a "sin" that anyone could be tempted into and that all had to guard against, to whatever extent their inclination was.  (That's not necessarily better? but it does introduce some complexity into the topic.)

[Arthmail]

sciborg2, on 24 December 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

Top 10 Lesbian Kisses of All Time

That first one says something to me of the problem inherint in our society (the two sailors kissing that is). I worried immediately that they would be signalled out by their peers for this. I thought it was a brave and heartfelt moment, and honestly hope there is no blow back for this. But even just looking at this in light of what the RCMP in Canada are currently dealing with (a number of female officers coming out to claim institutional harrasement), i'm a little worried for them. Not that they should not have done it, i think DADT is fucking retarded, but...people are retarded sometimes.

[Grack21]

Arthmail, on 24 December 2011 - 11:55 PM, said:

That first one says something to me of the problem inherint in our society (the two sailors kissing that is). I worried immediately that they would be signalled out by their peers for this. I thought it was a brave and heartfelt moment, and honestly hope there is no blow back for this. But even just looking at this in light of what the RCMP in Canada are currently dealing with (a number of female officers coming out to claim institutional harrasement), i'm a little worried for them. Not that they should not have done it, i think DADT is fucking retarded, but...people are retarded sometimes.

Magneto was right

[Verboten]

Arthmail, on 24 December 2011 - 11:55 PM, said:

That first one says something to me of the problem inherint in our society (the two sailors kissing that is). I worried immediately that they would be signalled out by their peers for this. I thought it was a brave and heartfelt moment, and honestly hope there is no blow back for this. But even just looking at this in light of what the RCMP in Canada are currently dealing with (a number of female officers coming out to claim institutional harrasement), i'm a little worried for them. Not that they should not have done it, i think DADT is fucking retarded, but...people are retarded sometimes.

Me too. The Navy is officially backing their actions but It's still far too easy to imagine negative repurcussions for them. Those women were incredibly brave though, I can't imagine doing anything like that. Even holding my girlfriends hand in an unfamiliar place freaks me out.

[kalbear]

While homosexuality wasn't particularly lauded or accepted it wasn't a life or death thing either. Basically for most medieval periods it was DADT, and if you were caught you were expected to be more discreet about it and others were expected to be more understanding about it. Now, you couldn't flaunt it publicly, but it wasn't the evil that a lot of people make it out to be. Though there were certainly hate crimes they weren't particularly common.

Really, both the hatred of others because of race or because of sexual orientation didn't occur until close to the modern age. Racism existed as did  sexism, but the actual violence was not nearly as pervasive until, well, slavery became commonplace, and even then only in certain places.

[peterbound]

Verboten, on 25 December 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

Me too. The Navy is officially backing their actions but It's still far too easy to imagine negative repurcussions for them. Those women were incredibly brave though, I can't imagine doing anything like that. Even holding my girlfriends hand in an unfamiliar place freaks me out.

I honestly haven't heard any negative feedback from this.  I just don't think anyone cares any more.  

LoB you heard in anything in your circles?

[Grack21]

Kalbear, on 25 December 2011 - 10:43 AM, said:

Really, both the hatred of others because of race or because of sexual orientation didn't occur until close to the modern age.

Tell that to the Jews,

Edit: I guess that's technically religious intolerance, but really, where is this candland view of the middle ages coming from? Sure, they wern't as prudish and simple as modern myth suggests, but, really, no hate because of race? That's just nuts. Also mentioned, the idea that it wasn't misogynistic, blows my mind, considering women weren't allowed to be able to read/write and were considered to be almost a separate species considered inferior to man and full of sin. Sure, it wasn't as bad as Bakkerworld, but it was bad.

Edited by Grack21, 25 December 2011 - 11:52 AM.

[peterbound]

After doing some research on various Military Message boards, the common consensus is that this photo was staged.  Hot ass lesbian kissing hot lesbian.

[sologdin]

is a comparatively recent development. With, for example, the Vikings, it was less an issue whether you were attracted to the same gender, and more whether you were the penetrator or the penetratee (a guy penetrating another guy? No problem. A guy getting penetrated by another guy? Haha, what a wuss).

there's a comical anecdote about dryden, who was trying to hang out with the cool kids at court (rochester, ehterege, shadwell, &c), and proclaimed "let's bugger one another now, by god!"  this was considered a horrible faux pas, as members of the ruling class did not allow themselves to be buggered, but had no problem with buggering members of the lower classes, sex/gender presumably irrelevant.  dryden was either too obtuse to get the class nature of buggery, or was asserting class domination over the collected aristocrats at court.  i doubt that it was intended to be an assertion of radical egalitarian revolutionism.

[Sci-2]

peterbound, on 25 December 2011 - 11:46 AM, said:

After doing some research on various Military Message boards, the common consensus is that this photo was staged.  Hot ass lesbian kissing hot lesbian.

Invalidation by hotness? Same reason I never believe any of these hot-chicks are spies or scientists. ;-P

[peterbound]

sciborg2, on 25 December 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

Invalidation by hotness? Same reason I never believe any of these hot-chicks are spies or scientists. ;-P

I dunno.  I'll link the forum for you:
http://www.militaryt...Navy-women-kiss

[peterbound]

I know this story is going to go over like shit, but i'll tell it anyways:

We ran into a lot of this shit in Iraq.  I always found it odd, because the islamic faith isn't too hip to the whole gay thing, but it was really, really prevalent with the local nationals.  Anywho, we were helping with a school one day (inspecting it, ensuring it was up to code) and one of the volunteers relayed that they were having an issue that day because two kids (teenagers boys) were caught mid act.  The dad's didn't mind that they were fucking, but they were really upset because the boys wouldn't come out an say who was buggering who.  Seems being the fuckee was much, much worse than being the fucker.  It all seemed odd to me.