Repercussions of Bowen Marsh's betrayel

[slayer420]

I think he was crying because he felt he was doing wrong,

I just dont buy that. This is a hard time and a very ruff world. Of all the people killed why is marsh the only one that crys why killing someone. Jamie dosnt cry when he pushs bran. tyorion dosnt cry when he kills his father and shea a women he loves. Hell dany doesnt cry when her brother is killed. could be wrong on that last one. I just dont buy it.

[Ghost714]

Jon had it all coming from his very first chapter. Melisandre practically told him how he would die. Jon had also his friends, and those he all sent away. He sent of Samwell, he sent off Aemon, he sent off even Pyp and Grenn, which made no sense at all to me. Not from the POV of a man who had to build himself a power base to counter any attempts of his enemies to plot against him, or assassinate him.

Instead he surrounded himself with men he looked down upon at heart, men whose opinions and idea he grew to resent, but whom he still deemed too craven to move against him. He could have seen the daggers coming, and he shares at least part of the blame. Bowen Marsh was never his friend, that he could have known from the beginning. Although the man was no Lannister loyalist from the beginning, he plotted with Thorne to make Slynt the next Lord Commander to please Lord Tywin. And there is no sign whatsoever his view on the politics of the Realm did change during ADwD.

And sending away the few competent guys in his camp - Dywen, Dolorous Edd etc. - to man the other castles was not that good for his cause, either. The old guard around Marsh and Yarwyck had every opportunity to plot, since their circles no longer included any Snow-friendly, or at least Snow-neutral people. They were cravens, had they feared their conspiracy could be brought to light, they would have done nothing. But so...

As for a ruse and stuff: It is plainly in the text that the talk with Tormund laid out the course of the meeting and the speech to inflame the hearts of the men to avenge Stannis. And I don't see any way to re-interpret Jon's death scene, either. The man gets stabbed multiple times before he drops to the ground, and I don't thing the assassins stopped after the fourth dagger...

Jon is dead, he might be resurrected, or 'healed' if that's what can be done to a body who most likely is not going to rot in the near future, but he is obviously dead, in my opinion. If not, if he somehow was only most severely wounded, he will become another Bran, and I don't want to see him going down that road. Make him some kind R'hllor zombie, but not another cripple.

I wish Jon would have kept some friends around, but I completely understand why he sent them away. He had to go from being their friend, to their Lord Commander. He knew that he wouldn't be able to resist being their friend if they were still around. So he had to make a change in order to transition into there commander. Also with people like Iron Emmet and Delorus Edd, he needed people he could trust to run the other Cassel's. I completely agree with his decisions, he was unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place. I mean that, when he decided to send away his friends. I can see why he thought it was more important to send them away to use there strengths elsewhere. Because he thought he could handle any danger to himself because he knew he would always have Ghost with him. I really can't fault him for not anticipating Borraq and his crazy huge boar, and that whole situation.

So basically I resent anybody who says how dumb he was for his decisions. It was more bad luck than anything. (again how could he see not having Ghost because he had to lock him up so he wouldnt get killed fighting a giant boar!!!)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon is dead, he might be resurrected, or 'healed' if that's what can be done to a body who most likely is not going to rot in the near future, but he is obviously dead, in my opinion. If not, if he somehow was only most severely wounded, he will become another Bran, and I don't want to see him going down that road. Make him some kind R'hllor zombie, but not another cripple.

See, I'm not really sure we can take for granted that he's dead at all. I'm not even talking about a resurrection. I mean, we can't know for sure that he even died of the actual wounds. One grazed his throat; it left blood but nothing too deep. Another was in his stomach, but it was a punch, not a slice (i.e. nothing important fell out). Then we have another at his back, but again, if it didn't hit his kidneys or his spine, no reason to think it'd automatically be fatal. The wild card is the fourth knife that he never feels — no way to know where it hits him. Given how many layers of clothing he'd have to be wearing and how the cold would constrict blood vessels and limit bleeding, part of me wonders if he'll just live through the damn thing. I think it'd be funny if we've been led to expect a red priestess resurrection or some form of superwarging and in fact it's just a garden variety, "Oh hey, Jon healed up nicely."

[Ghost714]

See, I'm not really sure we can take for granted that he's dead at all. I'm not even talking about a resurrection. I mean, we can't know for sure that he even died of the actual wounds. One grazed his throat; it left blood but nothing too deep. Another was in his stomach, but it was a punch, not a slice (i.e. nothing important fell out). Then we have another at his back, but again, if it didn't hit his kidneys or his spine, no reason to think it'd automatically be fatal. The wild card is the fourth knife that he never feels — no way to know where it hits him. Given how many layers of clothing he'd have to be wearing and how the cold would constrict blood vessels and limit bleeding, part of me wonders if he just won't live through the damn thing. I think it'd be funny if we've been led to expect a red priestess resurrection or some form of superwarging and in fact it's just a garden variety, "Oh hey, Jon healed up nicely."

I agree with this 100%

I mean come on people in our world have survived much, much, much worse then what happened to Jon. Let me also point out a few things.

People in our mainstream society are a bunch of Pansy's, and yet there are people who have survived great injury.

People in the world of Westeros are much more badass in comparison to all the crap they have to live with everyday. They fight battles man to man, they work hard labor, without air conditioning when they go home etc etc.

Then there is the people of the North. The people in the North grow up in the hardest conditions,(next to the people North of the Wall) they are much more hardcore,then people from the south (and the southerners are still way tougher than anyone in our world)

So yes I believe Jon could easily survive his wounds. Some people have said there could have been more stabs then the four, but if that were the case I believe the book would have said..."Jon never felt the last ten knives...only the cold..." Instead of what it actually said which was "Jon never felt the fourth knife...only the cold..."

And even if he can't survive his wounds naturally, there is still a lot of magic around him that can see to it that he does (Mel, The Wall itself, The Children of the Forest, Bloodraven, etc)

I just do not see think he will "actually die" either way.

[Lord Calway]

I have a feeling that Jon will spend some time in a coma, like Bran (see, he fell from a fucking tower and didn't die, I guess Jon can survive some stabbing) and during that time he'll connect with Ghost. Having the wolf around will help him as it helped Bran, but now the connection between Jon and Ghost is stronger than it was between Bran and the-yet-to-be-named-Summer.

If everything happens as I expect (which rarely happen in this novel) Jon will come back a true warg.

[Sun]

The assassination attempt is an act of utter folly, prompted by a case of extreme idiocy, the natural results of which can, I expect, only be described as a stupendous clusterfuck.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So yes I believe Jon could easily survive his wounds. Some people have said there could have been more stabs then the four, but if that were the case I believe the book would have said..."Jon never felt the last ten knives...only the cold..." Instead of what it actually said which was "Jon never felt the fourth knife...only the cold..."

I agree with this. Some people have offered up the possibility that Jon could've been stabbed another 50 times after he passed out. I don't see it. "Jon never felt the next ten knives" or "Jon never felt the next stabs" would be a much better, clearer way to say that he was stabbed multiple times beyond the first three. If Martin wrote "fourth knife," I believe there were only four knives. Bear in mind too that dozens and dozens of stab wounds imply a frenzy and a loathing that I just don't think is evident in Bowen and his fellow stabbers. They apparently want Jon dead, but probably only want to stab him just as much as is necessary to get the job done. I don't think we're looking at a Swiss-cheese Jon, you know? Or it's possible that there were only four knives and someone or something intervened before there were more. Whatever the answer, I truly think that it was just the four knives.

I like to think of who or what could have intervened to stop the men. Bowen's tenure might be short indeed.

[DurararaFTW]

I don't think they'll be any tenure. stupid or not, this probably wasn't a grab for power, just executing an oathbreaker, as you do. Marsh won't be in charge. (Even if he wanted to, he doesn't have that authority and the wall is mostly populated by non-crows now)

[Lord Calway]

I don't think the free people will trust anyone that isn't Jon Snow.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think they'll be any tenure. stupid or not, this probably wasn't a grab for power, just executing an oathbreaker, as you do. Marsh won't be in charge. (Even if he wanted to, he doesn't have that authority and the wall is mostly populated by non-crows now)

Bowen's tenure remaining life on earth might be short indeed.

Better? :)

[David C. Hunter]

Bowen's tenure remaining life on earth might be short indeed.

Better? :)

I dont see any wildling taking orders from. Owen marsh or anybody other crow. Queens men are irrelevant. Wildling out number all of them like 5 to 1. Look for an uprising with Tormund at the lead. This is the end of the NW

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I dont see any wildling taking orders from. Owen marsh or anybody other crow. Queens men are irrelevant. Wildling out number all of them like 5 to 1. Look for an uprising with Tormund at the lead. This is the end of the NW

Said it before, I'll say it again:

Jon will be both 998th and 1000th. :cool4:

[Ghost714]

I don't think they'll be any tenure. stupid or not, this probably wasn't a grab for power, just executing an oathbreaker, as you do. Marsh won't be in charge. (Even if he wanted to, he doesn't have that authority and the wall is mostly populated by non-crows now)

Jon may have been a potential oathbreaker in the Eyes of Bowen Marsh, but Jon wasn't an "oathbreaker" yet. You can't rightfully, justifiably assassinate someone for saying that they are going to do something that might be considered as breaking there oath. You could rightfully and justifiably detain them for saying they are going to do this thing. Either way Bowen Marsh is going to pay for what he did with his lifes blood, same goes for the men in bed with him. This I am sure of.

But I ask you was Jon really breaking his oath to the Nights Watch ??? Hear me out.

The whole reason for the oath that they take, is to make sure that they are doing everything they do to protect the realm. They don't surve this Lord, or that King, they surve the realm. That is the whole purpose of the Nights Watch "to protect the realms of men."

Well Ramsey said he was going to come destroy the NW, if Jon didn't give him, his bride, Reek, Mel, etc..., Jon couldn't give him his bride or Theon even if he wanted to. So based on what Jon knows about Ramsey , why would he have any reason not to believe Ramsey would attack the NW. Jon believes that the NW and the Wall, are the only things standing In between The Others, and the Realm. So in order to save the Realm he must first protect the NW. If he believes the only way to do that is by marching against Ramsay, before Ramsey can attack the Wall.... Is he still becoming an Oathbreaker? Or is he keeping his Oath by taking the fight to Ramsay? Again in order to protect the NW so they can ultimately protect the Realm. (which again is their whole entire purpose of existence)

What do you guys think?

[Ghost714]

Said it before, I'll say it again:

Jon will be both 998th and 1000th. :cool4:

Who will be the 999th Lord Commander then, if Jon is the 998th and 1000th???

[DurararaFTW]

Jon may have been a potential oathbreaker in the Eyes of Bowen Marsh, but Jon wasn't an "oathbreaker" yet. You can't rightfully, justifiably assassinate someone for saying that they are going to do something that might be considered as breaking there oath. You could rightfully and justifiably detain them for saying they are going to do this thing.

That might have been an option if it was anyone other then the Lord-Commander himelf going, with the support of several thousand non-crows currently at the Wall. Detaining him would be a pipedream, they'd get detained, Jon would just go on with what he was doing.

Either way Bowen Marsh is going to pay for what he did with his lifes blood, same goes for the men in bed with him. This I am sure of.

Me too.

The whole reason for the oath that they take, is to make sure that they are doing everything they do to protect the realm. They don't surve this Lord, or that King, they surve the realm. That is the whole purpose of the Nights Watch "to protect the realms of men."

Okay, really. That statement is used time after time but that isn't what the Night's Watch has been about for several thousands of years. Jon is incapable of fully appreciating that becaue he's only been there for a year or two. And he had an encounter with a wight (that he survived) long months before the others did. And half of those still was spent befriending the Wildlings, Jon, even if his friends were around has a POV entirely alien to everyone else in the Night's Watch.

Well Ramsey said he was going to come destroy the NW, if Jon didn't give him, his bride, Reek, Mel, etc..., Jon couldn't give him his bride or Theon even if he wanted to. So based on what Jon knows about Ramsey , why would he have any reason not to believe Ramsey would attack the NW. Jon believes that the NW and the Wall, are the only things standing In between The Others, and the Realm. So in order to save the Realm he must first protect the NW. If he believes the only way to do that is by marching against Ramsay, before Ramsey can attack the Wall.... Is he still becoming an Oathbreaker? Or is he keeping his Oath by taking the fight to Ramsay? Again in order to protect the NW so they can ultimately protect the Realm. (which again is their whole entire purpose of existence)

Ramsey's letter, which Jon reads to the watch, no ommisioning is mentioned tells Jon's audience this:

Mance Rayder's death (who was an oathbreaker and by Night's Watch law was rightfully execured), was faked by Jon. Mance Rayder was sent south to rescue Jon's pre-Watch sister from Stannis' enemies. He is now held hostage by Ramsey. Ramey tells them to come get Mance Rayder if he wants him back. Jon proceeds to do so along with the other wildlings.

Ramsey also doesn't just want Reek and his bride. He wants Stannis' queen, his daughter, Melisandre, Mance's sister, his son and the baby. Jon doesn't give them or ask any of them to leave because they have obviously comprimised the Watch's neutrality. He let's them stay at the wall as he goes to fight their war for them along with his wildling comrades. And Ramsey just says "Keep the from me or I'll cut out your bastard's heart."

He doesn't threaten to destroy the Watch.

Moreover Jon makes note of this "I mean to make him answer for those word...but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their oaths."

So yeah, Jon considers it oathbreaking, and he at least knows the full story about how Mance wasn't executed. Bowen and co don't.

[David C. Hunter]

That might have been an option if it was anyone other then the Lord-Commander himelf going, with the support of several thousand non-crows currently at the Wall. Detaining him would be a pipedream, they'd get detained, Jon would just go on with what he was doing.

Me too.

Okay, really. That statement is used time after time but that isn't what the Night's Watch has been about for several thousands of years. Jon is incapable of fully appreciating that becaue he's only been there for a year or two. And he had an encounter with a wight (that he survived) long months before the others did. And half of those still was spent befriending the Wildlings, Jon, even if his friends were around has a POV entirely alien to everyone else in the Night's Watch.

Ramsey's letter, which Jon reads to the watch, no ommisioning is mentioned tells Jon's audience this:

Mance Rayder's death (who was an oathbreaker and by Night's Watch law was rightfully execured), was faked by Jon. Mance Rayder was sent south to rescue Jon's pre-Watch sister from Stannis' enemies. He is now held hostage by Ramsey. Ramey tells them to come get Mance Rayder if he wants him back. Jon proceeds to do so along with the other wildlings.

Ramsey also doesn't just want Reek and his bride. He wants Stannis' queen, his daughter, Melisandre, Mance's sister, his son and the baby. Jon doesn't give them or ask any of them to leave because they have obviously comprimised the Watch's neutrality. He let's them stay at the wall as he goes to fight their war for them along with his wildling comrades. And Ramsey just says "Keep the from me or I'll cut out your bastard's heart."

He doesn't threaten to destroy the Watch.

Moreover Jon makes note of this "I mean to make him answer for those word...but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their oaths."

So yeah, Jon considers it oathbreaking, and he at least knows the full story about how Mance wasn't executed. Bowen and co don't.

One thing I realized that shows that It is just Bowen Marsh and maybe just 2 other people is for the fact that they are killing him this way. In the dark in a cowardly sneaky way. They didn't detain him, they didn't confront him about being the oath breaker. This shows that it wasn't the entire nights watch against Jon, just these guys.

To me Bowen Marsh is doing this for selfish reasons, not for the Nights Watch. He never got over the fact that they voted him lord commander and that's about as far as it goes because I guarantee if it was Commander Mormount doing what Jon has done(minus the aftermath of the Ramsay letter) Bowen marsh would have no quarrels. He stabbed Jon because he knew he could an because he never liked him. Having the wildlings come over pisses him off, but it's not the main reason for the craven stabbing. He's no different than Alistair Thorne. No worries, he'll be getting the Janos Slynt treatment really soon.

[DurararaFTW]

One thing I realized that shows that It is just Bowen Marsh and maybe just 2 other people is for the fact that they are killing him this way. In the dark in a cowardly sneaky way. They didn't detain him, they didn't confront him about being the oath breaker. This shows that it wasn't the entire nights watch against Jon, just these guys.

To me Bowen Marsh is doing this for selfish reasons, not for the Nights Watch. He never got over the fact that they voted him lord commander and that's about as far as it goes because I guarantee if it was Commander Mormount doing what Jon has done(minus the aftermath of the Ramsay letter) Bowen marsh would have no quarrels. He stabbed Jon because he knew he could an because he never liked him. Having the wildlings come over pisses him off, but it's not the main reason for the craven stabbing. He's no different than Alistair Thorne. No worries, he'll be getting the Janos Slynt treatment really soon.

If by "in the dark" you mean, in the open courtyard in front of all a crapload of wildlings and Queen's men, then yes. And though I agree that it was not the Watch just a chosen few, I think it was more then three. Every part of AA's prophecy can be found in that scene, the red star, the salt ect. "When darkness gathers" I assume means Bowen and the others surrounding him and attacking him, cause they wear all black. I think there were probably about ten for that too look right.

[LuisDantas]

To be fair to Bowen Marsh, he had known Mormont for a far longer time than he has known Jon - and likely with far less reason to have doubts about his loyalty, too.

[The Oncoming Storm]

I think Selyse approves if she isn't involved to begin with. She doesn't like Jon and she would prefer an LC whom she can boss over.

For what is coming (if Tormund doesn't tear them apart right there) see Act IV and Act V of Julius Caesar...

Can't see Bowen doing it out of hate/jealousy. He was crying and he doesn't look like a man who cries often.

[DurararaFTW]

Well, whether you blame Bowen or Jon, I actually this treason committed right there on the Wall is gonna have profound magical effect and the Others will finally make their move, forcing them to deal with Bowen another day and our POV will be Melisandre hauling ass to get Jon's body to safety.

I'm certain something is going to interrupt the proceedings, 10,000 wildlings coming down to Winterfell for support would be cutting Stannis a break, no way that'll happen.