401 replies to this topic

[Lord of the Night]

Arthmail, on 23 January 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

I've read the Lost omnibus, and am currently reading Ravenor omnibus, and what you just said makes no sense at all.

Where to go from here? Horus Heresy? That Cain fellow everyone seems to think is a hoot?

The Horus Heresy is definitely where you should go. Its first three books Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames are where its best to begin then just see which ones you like and read them in whatever order you like, bearing in mind that there is a timeline to the events.

nickg, on 24 January 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

Im liking the Night Lords trilogy quite a bit. I have finished Soul Hunter and am reading Blood Reaver right now. Both are good.  

I also ordered the Enforcer omnibus last week ( its delayed though, should get it thrusday ). Not sure what to expect really, but the main character is a woman and a member of the Arbites instead of Space Marines. A welcome change.

They are my favourite 40k novels, but Void Stalker will blow them both out of the water if the exert the author posted on his blog is any indication.

I have that omnibus but its a tough read, for me at least. The author is a good one but i've read some of his other work and while its good, it just feels like a bit of a slog to get through. I'll eventually read the Shira Calpurnia series but other books take precedence over it for me.

Antonius Pius, on 24 January 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Thanks. I think I'll stick with the omnibuses then. Aside from being more cost-efficient, I also like the feel of good big book.

A fair choice but be prepared for a long wait. Omnibuses tend to take a while before release. Though the Night Lords omnibus will definitely be a great one, the author Aaron Dembski-Bowden has confirmed his exclusive prequel short story Shadow Knight will be in it and he will be adding a lexicon of Nostraman words at the end and their translations. So you can learn some Night Lords speak.


Another series I would recommend is the Tome of Fire trilogy by Nick Kyme. Its about the Salamanders chapter of Space Marines and they are quite unique in their temperment and beliefs. A good example is a short story that involves a squad of Salamanders and their Captain going back to the enemy lines to gather an objective, it isn't revealed until the end that the objective is a group of civilians that got stuck behind enemy lines. No other Chapter, not even the Ultramarines, would have done that. They believe in protecting the weak and are the closest that the 40k universe has to good guys. The books involved are Salamander, Firedrake and Nocturne, with some extra short stories involved, the main and best of those is Fires of War that serves as a prequel to the novels. I would definitely recommend this trilogy.

Also Helsreach by Aaron Dembski-Bowden. A brilliant story about loyalist marines protecting a city from an Ork invasion.


LotN

Edited by Lord of the Night, 24 January 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[Nukelavee]

Arthmail - what didn't make sense?

Ignore teh Heresy war for a minute, and think about the 41m stuff.  Humanity is beset by...Chaos, Necron, Ork, Tyranids, any of which is a huge threat, combined...things look very bad.  Add in the Tau and Eldar, things look even worse.  Wait, what?  The Machine God might be a C'taan?

Humanity has no allies, no "gods" available (save the Emperor himself, and he's kinda overloaded and feeling tired)...no active Primarchs, the marine gene-lines are weakening...

The end looks pretty inevitable.

It actually could be said that the Cabal's prophecy is coming true.

I can't help it, I want to see humanity given some hope - Maybe one of the Primarchs whose fate is unknown returns, Jonson or Sanguinius are "healed", the unknown Primarchs are found; the Emperor achieves a stable state, or is able to "return" in some form.

[Jon AS]

Nukelavee, on 24 January 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

The end looks pretty inevitable.

That's the entire point of the setting. It's five minutes to midnight, there is no hope of salvation, if there ever was it was destroyed by the Heresy. The Imperium will continue its inevitable decline until it becomes so destabilised that it's torn apart by internal divisions and outside forces.

Keep in mind that "hope" is part of Tzeentch's portfolio.

[Werthead]

Quote

I've read the Lost omnibus, and am currently reading Ravenor omnibus, and what you just said makes no sense at all.

If you mean the Slaanesh thing, it's actually mentioned in one of the GG books when Gaunt finds an old reference to three chaos powers and is confused (as there are now four):

Spoiler

The Eldar inadvertantly created the fourth Chaos power and blew a hole in reality that became the Eye of Terror, unleashing the undying forces of Chaos upon the universe. Basically, they're responsible for quite a lot of the sheer fucked-uppness of the WH40K universe, which makes their sanctimonious lecturing of other species and their firm belief in their own superiority all the more hypocritical and moronic.

[Nukelavee]

Whew, glad Wert covered that...didn't occur to me it would be a spoiler.

Yeah, that event seriously screwed the Galaxy.  I think Slannesh' birth also might be the event that isolates Earth before the Emperor.

Jon - yeah, I know that's the setting, but...that inevitable end is getting on my tits.  Plus, false hope is Tzeentch.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy the stories, or the universe as is, I'd just like a bit of light.  Plus, I've been reading this stuff for 20 years, our doom is getting a bit stale.

[Jon AS]

Werthead, on 24 January 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

If you mean the Slaanesh thing, it's actually mentioned in one of the GG books when Gaunt finds an old reference to three chaos powers and is confused (as there are now four):

Of course, once there were four, there had always been four...

Nukelavee, on 24 January 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Plus, false hope is Tzeentch.

No, it's actual, real hope. The Chaos powers are complicated like that.

Nukelavee, on 24 January 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

I'm not saying I don't enjoy the stories, or the universe as is, I'd just like a bit of light.  Plus, I've been reading this stuff for 20 years, our doom is getting a bit stale.

Don't forget it's just meant to be an excuse for why everybody is fighting everybody else (including amongst themselves) all the time. I'd assume that GW would rather explore another "historical" story like the Age of Apostasy before they'd consider doing anything to the status quo.

[Nukelavee]

Jon - oh, I get that.  The game lines do drive the stories, after all.

On the other hand, if GW decided a new race or faction would be profitable, and there was a potential demand for that race to be "good", it would happen.  (by good, I'm sorta including being for Order, in a way that isn't doom for the galaxy).

If, say Corvinus returned, with a chapter of updated Marines, that would be fine with me.

But, if GW felt that more games could be moved by a revamp that included a re-vitalized Emperor, we'd see that happen.

Plus, I still have a few contacts in GW, and I've been told (yeah, rumour, so...) that there is a "feeling" that Abnett, in particular, is up to something regarding tieing down loose ends (again, the Emperor's fate) to kick-start teh narrative that is contemperary to the game itself.  Mind you, that was said in regards to me saying "seriously, something needs to happen with him" to a sculptor for GW, so...

[Maltaran]

Jon AS, on 24 January 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Of course, once there were four, there had always been four...

In the very old Games Workshop fluff, there were five - I can't remember the name of the fifth one, but he was the god of atheism.

[Arthmail]

Antonius Pius, on 24 January 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

A quick search on Amazon doesn't reveal the Night Lords trilogy. Only Blood Reaver and Soul Hunter (and Void Stalker, which apparently isn't released yet). Which is the last book of the trilogy, and is it available as an omnibus, or not yet?

(Also, the Night Lords are Chaos Marines, right? )




How about Runefist? You could paint some gibberish on the side for added effect.

Nukelavee, on 24 January 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Arthmail - what didn't make sense?

Werthead, on 24 January 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

If you mean the Slaanesh thing, it's actually mentioned in one of the GG books when Gaunt finds an old reference to three chaos powers and is confused (as there are now four):

Spoiler

The Eldar inadvertantly created the fourth Chaos power and blew a hole in reality that became the Eye of Terror, unleashing the undying forces of Chaos upon the universe. Basically, they're responsible for quite a lot of the sheer fucked-uppness of the WH40K universe, which makes their sanctimonious lecturing of other species and their firm belief in their own superiority all the more hypocritical and moronic.

Yea, what Wert just said. Is that mention in Gaunts Ghosts omnibus the Lost, or something else? I'll pick up a few more as i go along.


And Runefist sounds bad ass or a deviant sexual act. Not exactly sure.

Edited by Arthmail, 24 January 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[Jon AS]

Nukelavee, on 24 January 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Jon - oh, I get that.  The game lines do drive the stories, after all.

I don't think there is much drive to have an ongoing narrative in the background at all. The background for a game doesn't need to move along like the plot of a novel does.

Nukelavee, on 24 January 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

On the other hand, if GW decided a new race or faction would be profitable, and there was a potential demand for that race to be "good", it would happen.  (by good, I'm sorta including being for Order, in a way that isn't doom for the galaxy).

"Good" is indeed not a useful designation in 40k. The Imperium isn't "good", some individuals (and some Adeptus Astartes Chapters) are, but overall it's a fascist, intolerant theocracy that would rather exterminate the population of an entire planet than let that world leave the Imperium intact.

Nukelavee, on 24 January 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

If, say Corvinus returned, with a chapter of updated Marines, that would be fine with me.

You mean Corax? There is no narrative reason why you couldn't write a story like that, but there doesn't appear to be much of an interest on the part of GW.

Nukelavee, on 24 January 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

But, if GW felt that more games could be moved by a revamp that included a re-vitalized Emperor, we'd see that happen.

I don't see how that would change anything in terms of sales. The people who won't get into this kind of ridiculously expensive miniature wargame now won't be swayed by changing up the background a little bit.

One should also consider that while Space Marines are pushed as the big thing of the setting and are basically the "gateway" faction to play, there are quite a few people playing non-Imperial armies. They might not necessarily like stories about a resurgent Imperium.

Then again, a returning Primarch would probably take one look at the Imperium and either break down in despair or try to start knocking some sense into the High Lords (and try to abolish the Ecclesiarchy). It might do a lot more damage than if he'd stayed away.

I'd actually be willing to bet that a majority of players don't care all that much about the background, though. They just want to play the game.

Malt, on 24 January 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

In the very old Games Workshop fluff, there were five - I can't remember the name of the fifth one, but he was the god of atheism.

Malal. Not really atheism, more nihilism I think. He's no longer part of the background because he's owned by someone who left the company way back (like 25+ years ago). IIRC there were only four major powers even then, but I forget which of the well known big four didn't exist. Might in fact have been Slaanesh.

[Arthmail]

I put down Ravenor at one point for something else, so i'm going through it a second time, at least where i am at. And i am struck again by how....incompetent Ravenor and his team are. I suppose that Gaunt and his Ghosts might be an exception or simply ubber, but i always got the feeling that Abnett nicely handled the skills of the team with the danger of the situation. But in Ravenor, i feel that they are all a little bit retarded. I mean, at one point a powerful psyker shows considerable animosity to Ravenor, how could he not see some sort of betrayal was in the works?

And considering how feared the Inquisition is in so many places, i find it hard to believe anyone would try and go toe to toe with him like that, at least openly.

Edited by Arthmail, 25 January 2012 - 04:34 AM.

[Nukelavee]

Arthmail - I can see wondering about Ravenor being an idiot, but...

Chalk it up to arrogance.  I think his team suffers from being almost as good as they think they are, from being involved with an Inquisitor and his power, and...

From being up against

Spoiler

what is basically an anti-inquisitor and an incredibly powerful daemon manipulating things

Jon - I'm curious - ever play 40k much, or, rather, interact with the hard core players?  The background is a huge part of teh appeal. GW makes it's money on figures, really, everything else is a frill to drive those sales. Because a huge part of the hobby is painting a fielding a "personal" army (or several), players really identify with, or connect their forces, with the background.    New figures aren't just dumped into the racks, they have their own backgrounds to place them within the setting and storylines.

So far as moving forward -  The Necron.  Totally out of nowhere, GW adds in a race of "machine" warriors (in part, to deal with another game that was making some waves).  Back story is added, including the C'taan, which are now tied to the Slann, who are now tied to the Eldar and Orks.

You can see the same forces driving the creation of teh Tau and Dark Eldar.

The opposite was done with the Squats.  GW was done with that faction, so....Tyranids ate em.  All of em.

I likely did mean Corvax.  No idea why I always go with Corvinus, none.  But - If that narrative coincided with new models for that force...yeah, it would drive sales.

Dumdedum - this is going on a bit of a tangent, Wert, bear with me, I promise to go back to the novels soon.  At the risk of sounding self-important, I do know how GW markets and develops new stuff; I worked for companies competing with them, I knew a lot of their staff, from artists and writers to marketing staff.  Heck, I worked for a company that won a lawsuit against them, because the 40k combat system was plagerized.

It really is the background that makes the difference to the players.  Other companies have gone against them with equivalent quality figures, better rules, cheaper prices, but without the dense background to tie it and the players together, it didn't work.

I'm not saying the narrative has to go in the direction I'd like, but I'm not alone in desiring it, and it could add to the universe, and the game itself.

[Jon AS]

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Jon - I'm curious - ever play 40k much, or, rather, interact with the hard core players?  The background is a huge part of teh appeal. GW makes it's money on figures, really, everything else is a frill to drive those sales. Because a huge part of the hobby is painting a fielding a "personal" army (or several), players really identify with, or connect their forces, with the background. New figures aren't just dumped into the racks, they have their own backgrounds to place them within the setting and storylines.

I haven't played 40k in over a decade now, but as far as I know hardcore fans tend not to be the biggest source of income for companies like GW. That's what the casual gamers are there for. Hardcore gamers (be it in RPGs, computer games or miniature wargames) tend to assume they are more important to the company than they really are. The casual gamers don't spend an awful lot of time discussing the intricacies of the game and setting.

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

So far as moving forward -  The Necron.  Totally out of nowhere, GW adds in a race of "machine" warriors (in part, to deal with another game that was making some waves).  Back story is added, including the C'taan, which are now tied to the Slann, who are now tied to the Eldar and Orks.

The basic Necron warrior models, i.e. robots that look like skeletons and therefore were undead IN SPACE, were around since Space Crusade or Space Marine (don't recall which came first), being called "Chaos Androids" back then. But yes, as I said, GW don't care about creating a coherent canon and have no trouble whatsoever retconning the hell out of their universe whenever they feel it will benefit sales. That's not the same as developing an ongoing narrative though, it's in fact detrimental to that.

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

I likely did mean Corvax.  No idea why I always go with Corvinus, none.  But - If that narrative coincided with new models for that force...yeah, it would drive sales.

"Corax", as in the latin name for "raven". Most of the Primarchs have terribly "clever" names like this.

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

I worked for a company that won a lawsuit against them, because the 40k combat system was plagerized.

Really? Which aspect of the system was that? As far as I can see, 40k is still basically using a variation of the 1st edition rules, which were of course adapted from Warhammer.

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

It really is the background that makes the difference to the players.  Other companies have gone against them with equivalent quality figures, better rules, cheaper prices, but without the dense background to tie it and the players together, it didn't work.

Most other companies also haven't got the dedicated stores that GW does. It makes a huge difference whether your games are sold as one out of many at the local comic store or whether you have a single store dedicated to pushing a large variety of games, the profits from which all go to a single company.

[Nukelavee]

Jon- it's the basic combat system, y'know, the part with the dice and charts.  Right from 1st - it was copied from Universal Soldier, which was a system by RAFM Co, who had produced figures for GW for North American markets, Rogue Trader days.

The dedicated GW stores certainly help, but...those have only really been prevalent since around 98, before that, GW was sold with all the other rpg's and wargames.

Trust me - it IS the harcore that GW makes the money from.  It's the hardcore that field multiple races and army lists, that buy each revision of each codex, that re-build each army after each revision or addition breaks that army.  Considering the work that goes into painting a single force, and the cost, plus it being marketed as a complete hobby, not just a game, the hardcore have thousands of dollars invested.  ForgeWorld exists to supply the hardcore with additional, huge models and terrain.

The Necron were actually a response to the Legions of Steel Machine forces, a game system similar to Space Hulk, and Planetstorm, the tabletop version.

Anyway, seriously - I really do know how GW works, because, competing against them (as well as knowing their marketing people and designers), the companies studied them, or, well, were working with them.

Anyways - Opinion: I'd like to see them commit to something with the Emperor, and/or give the humans some sort of ally/"found" Primarch.

Rumour - That Abnett wants to try and pin down a continuity.  I'm not hugely well versed in 40k myth, but Titanicus and the Alpha Legion novel both give possible clues to what is being done, if not what is being aimed at.

Otherwise, I dunno, but I do think the return of any of the possible loyalist Primarchs, and what they see has become of the Imperium, would make for a good series.

[Jon AS]

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Jon- it's the basic combat system, y'know, the part with the dice and charts.  Right from 1st - it was copied from Universal Soldier, which was a system by RAFM Co, who had produced figures for GW for North American markets, Rogue Trader days.

Heh, never knew that. How did they survive a lawsuit about something that fundamental?

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Trust me - it IS the harcore that GW makes the money from.  It's the hardcore that field multiple races and army lists, that buy each revision of each codex, that re-build each army after each revision or addition breaks that army.  Considering the work that goes into painting a single force, and the cost, plus it being marketed as a complete hobby, not just a game, the hardcore have thousands of dollars invested.  ForgeWorld exists to supply the hardcore with additional, huge models and terrain.

I assumed it would be that for every hardcore gamer, you could get a dozen casual ones who'll not spend as much individually and will probably drift away from the hobby after a few years, but as long as you keep a stream of new customers coming (by, say, targetting kids in their early teens) they'll be worth more than the lifelong loyalists (who have the added advantage of being unlikely to completely drop the hobby no matter what you do, since they've already invested so much time and money in it).

Plenty of people also sell their old stuff on ebay when they want to start something new.

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Anyways - Opinion: I'd like to see them commit to something with the Emperor, and/or give the humans some sort of ally/"found" Primarch.

They've always loved teasing things that could potentially completely shake up the galaxy. Sometimes the entire setting seems to consist of nothing but plot hooks that never get resolved. Right back to first edition, with the Sensei (honest-to-god good guys in 40k!) and their connection to the Starchild for example (though the reason they aren't brought back up again is probably that they'd come across as giant Mary Sues ), but the fact is that nothing ever happens.

GW even held massive worldwide campaigns that promised to allow players to somewhat shape the future of both the Warhammer and 40k settings in the past decade, but the results were either ignored or retconned.

So some people may want to change that, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[SkynJay]

This thread has made me wish I had grown up with friends who would play this game with me, and also glad that I didn't so I wouldn't go broke to play the game.

[Lord of the Night]

Nukelavee, on 25 January 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Anyways - Opinion: I'd like to see them commit to something with the Emperor, and/or give the humans some sort of ally/"found" Primarch

Ooo no. The Primarchs are a thing of the Horus Heresy. A quote from a Chaos Space Marine best sums it up imo, I think it was Warsmith Honsou that spoke it, anyone whose read Ultramarines knows who he is.

I don't have the book on me so I can't quote it word for word but was something like this. "The Primarchs time is past. We are their sons and we have inherited the galaxy they left behind. It is ours now, not theirs."


LotN

[Galactus]

It's kind of interesting to me that most people seem to prefer the 40K universe for reading, but the Warhammer one for playing. I know tons of people who play/played WHFB but very few 40K-players. (though even the 40K-players claim FB is the better-designed game)

[Nukelavee]

I read the books (rulebooks, too, lol), and paint (hopefully) the vast stock of figures cached about my home.  Only actually played 40k maybe 5 times...

So, regarding FB, all I can say is that it might come down to revisions.  40k is constantly being changed...it's as bad as the nerf/buff cycle in WoW, FB might be less meddled with, or the forces more balanced.  Maybe it's the setting, I dunno.

Jon- they got away with it because the owners of RAFM didn't follow-thru on the win, really.  Next time I talk to Sunny-Jim, I'll get details, if you like (I've forgotten exactly how RAFM dropped the ball in terms of the legalities).

LotN - maybe that's the problem - the Imperium needs something suprahuman to have a chance...

[Galactus]

But what's the point of that?

the entire point of 40K is that the universe is doomed. All you can hope is to go out in a blaze of glory.