401 replies to this topic

[Lord of the Night]

TrackerNeil, on 30 April 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

I am a sucker for modern fantasy, so I borrowed the DVDs from a friend and gave it a spin. I was mildly entertained until they met the angel and the show took on standard Christian mythology, which is as familar as it is overdone.

I think, however, that there is a slightly misogynistic overtone to this series. I remember vividly one episode in which a demon in human guise (played by Jennifer Halley, who was Seelix on BSG), confronts Dean in a diner or some such place. He knows she dare not kill him, so he decides to taunt her with it. Part of that taunting involves slapping her repeatedly across the face, which brought my viewing to a screeching halt.

While I know that, in the context of the show, the slappee is not a human woman but a demon, when I disentangled myself from the fiction I saw Dean beating a woman. Perhaps that indicates a limitation on my part, but I could not help but wonder (with a shudder) if the writers had toyed with the idea of Dean deciding to really tick off the demon by raping her.

It's been said that a writer should not use narrative to be an asshole, and whoever wrote that scene was doing just that. There was nothing particularly interesting about Dean treating a demon that way, and I think the same narrative goal could have been accomplished by simply having Dean tease the creature. Also, what does it say about Dean that he's so willing, and even eager, to cuff a woman around, even knowing there's a demon inside there? The writers obviously want us, the viewers, to think Dean is a good guy, but after that performance...well, I wouldn't recommend my sister date him.

Well truthfully its the other way around. There is a women inside the demon, and there's a 95% chance she's already dead. Dean would absolutely not have raped her but he wanted to see if violence would provoke the demon into attacking him.

Frankly I enjoy that Supernatural is equal opportunity with violence. Dean wouldn't hit a human woman but a demon woman is fair game to him because, A: Its not human anymore, B: The demon could toss him around like a rag-doll so he can't really hold anything back, and C: Its pure evil and deserves it.

I can understand why your uncomfortable with it, but if you distangle yourself from the fiction in any series then some of the stuff they do is disturbing. I say just take it as it is in the fiction.


LotN

[TrackerNeil]

Lord of the Night, on 30 April 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Frankly I enjoy that Supernatural is equal opportunity with violence. Dean wouldn't hit a human woman but a demon woman is fair game to him because, A: Its not human anymore, B: The demon could toss him around like a rag-doll so he can't really hold anything back, and C: Its pure evil and deserves it.

I think most people would agree that Dean locked in combat with a demon in woman form is different from him slapping around a demon in woman form who does nothing - and can do nothing - but glare at him. Context matters. I also wonder if Dean does anything similar to demons in male form.

[Lord of the Night]

TrackerNeil, on 30 April 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I think most people would agree that Dean locked in combat with a demon in woman form is different from him slapping around a demon in woman form who does nothing - and can do nothing - but glare at him. Context matters. I also wonder if Dean does anything similar to demons in male form.

Of course he would have. Dean doesn't see a woman or a man sitting in front of him, he sees an unholy monster and since he has seen what demons really look like under the meatsuits, its not hard for him to not to view a demon possessed individual as human.


LotN

[TrackerNeil]

Lord of the Night, on 30 April 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Of course he would have. Dean doesn't see a woman or a man sitting in front of him, he sees an unholy monster and since he has seen what demons really look like under the meatsuits, its not hard for him to not to view a demon possessed individual as human.

LotN

Umm...that sounds like the writer is being an asshole via narrative. I'm not convinced.

[Lord of the Night]

TrackerNeil, on 30 April 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Umm...that sounds like the writer is being an asshole via narrative. I'm not convinced.

Fair enough. I would suggest not letting this one moment dissuade you from watching the rest of the series though.

Also a webclip for the coming episode.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wugpvqOLoA4

Oh Cas how we have missed you and your complete misunderstanding of humour.


LotN

[TrackerNeil]

Lord of the Night, on 01 May 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Fair enough. I would suggest not letting this one moment dissuade you from watching the rest of the series though.

Actually, it didn't. The introduction of Christian mythology did that. I'm not against Christian myths per se, but they are too familiar to be interesting anymore, at least not without more creativity than the Supernatural writers achieved.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 01 May 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Lord of the Night]

TrackerNeil, on 01 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Actually, it didn't. The introduction of Christian mythology did that. I'm not against Christian myths per se, but they are too familiar to be interesting anymore, at least not without more creativity than the Supernatural writers achieved.

The Christian mythology does play a large role in the 4th and 5th seasons but it is interestingly explored with subjects like Revelations, the signs of the Apocalypse, the Anti-christ, the Whore of Babylon and the concept of Heaven (Which is not what you'd expect), and Castiel even says that "Your bible gets more wrong than it does right." And there's plenty of other mythologies that are explored, one Season 5 episode in particular features heavy mythology from multiple sources.


LotN

Edited by Lord of the Night, 01 May 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[JetboyGirl]

Oh my god, I love Kevin Tran!

[Zelgrath]

Was anyone else reminded of this when Tran was yelling "What's happening!"

Edited by Zelgrath, 05 May 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[ZombieWife]

TrackerNeil, on 30 April 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

I am a sucker for modern fantasy, so I borrowed the DVDs from a friend and gave it a spin. I was mildly entertained until they met the angel and the show took on standard Christian mythology, which is as familar as it is overdone.

So are crime dramas, sitcoms, hospital/ER shows, family drama, and so forth.  If it's not your cup of tea, that's cool, but calling things "familiar and overdone" is kinda "familiar and overdone," imho.  The show does put a new spin where it can and has dynamic leading characters (and supporting characters) that make this show what it is.  

Quote

I think, however, that there is a slightly misogynistic overtone to this series. I remember vividly one episode in which a demon in human guise (played by Jennifer Halley, who was Seelix on BSG), confronts Dean in a diner or some such place. He knows she dare not kill him, so he decides to taunt her with it. Part of that taunting involves slapping her repeatedly across the face, which brought my viewing to a screeching halt.

I've heard the misogynistic "angle" about this show from a lot of hard-feminist theorists and honestly?  This one is pretty much the same stuff.  The thing is, the show isn't here to promote your singular agenda of social justice.  It's a world where supernatural things occur.  Demons enter bodies of males and females.  It's a fictional world where hunters (Sam and Dean) know what a demon in any gender "meat suit" can do to them.  

The biggest point is that it is a world created (meaning fictional/fantasy).  And in this fictional world, demons do possess women sometimes.  In this world, the Winchesters fight the good fight against demons.  They don't differentiate between male/female.  They're all bad.  

Quote

While I know that, in the context of the show, the slappee is not a human woman but a demon, when I disentangled myself from the fiction I saw Dean beating a woman. Perhaps that indicates a limitation on my part, but I could not help but wonder (with a shudder) if the writers had toyed with the idea of Dean deciding to really tick off the demon by raping her.

This makes absolutely no sense to me.  The idea of either Winchester raping a woman is pretty out there.  It's up there with Sam/Dean incestuous gay fanfic, imho.  I don't know what you mean by disentangling yourself from the fiction.  Either you're buying into the story, or you've turned off the volume and are choosing to think that Dean and Sam love going around beating up women (demons or not) and that maybe they can F*** (rape) the evil out?  I don't even know where to begin with that.

Quote

It's been said that a writer should not use narrative to be an asshole, and whoever wrote that scene was doing just that. There was nothing particularly interesting about Dean treating a demon that way, and I think the same narrative goal could have been accomplished by simply having Dean tease the creature. Also, what does it say about Dean that he's so willing, and even eager, to cuff a woman around, even knowing there's a demon inside there? The writers obviously want us, the viewers, to think Dean is a good guy, but after that performance...well, I wouldn't recommend my sister date him.

I think I've already addressed that.  If you haven't seen the entire series, then it'll only piss you off more.  There's equal ass-kicking for all genders (not just the men).  Quit while you're ahead.  As a woman (who has a keen interest in women's studies), I see this as trying TOO hard to read into something that simply isn't there.  

Don't mean to sound nasty, but this kind of media witch hunt always makes me cringe on the inside. There is a line between a show/world created by writers/developers and purposely pulling yourself outside of that world for the sole purpose of finding gender-related atrocities.  Maybe it's the fact that having watched the whole series, the idea that Dean is a sinister rapist hell-bent on beating the dames makes me laugh (literally) out loud.

Edited by ZombieWife, 05 May 2012 - 11:34 PM.

[JetboyGirl]

Although I don't think it is all as bad as TrackerNeil says, I've definitely been annoyed at the treatment of women at certain points in the show's history. Obviously the casting person had a thing for bleached blondes, for example, because in season 1 it was like every other chick was some hot blond and they never did anything interesting. I know at the beginning they had some women on the writing staff, but I've wondered more than once if they do anymore.

So maybe you don't find any problems with the treatment of women in the show, ZombieWife-who-is-keenly-interested-in-womens-studies, but other people have. It's uncool, and dare I say 'familiar and overdone,' to jump down people's throats for what you've disparaged as a 'media witch hunt.'

Now, back to the awesomeness of Kevin Tran...

[ZombieWife]

I never said the show was perfect?  By all means, no.  Let's look at season 1.  Dean and Sam actually cared about the "meat suits" when they tried to vanquish a demon (regardless of gender).  Now?  Seems they're stabbing demon-infested meat-suits left and right. Yet, nobody's saying, "Wow, those poor humans," they're saying, "I can't believe Dean hit a demon-infested body . . . womanly body."  

And, there are a lack of female characters.  Yet, the show was never touted as a feel-good chick flick.  (Thank you Bobby Singer.)  The memorable female characters that got considerable screen time were, in fact, pretty damn cool, from Bella to Jo and Ellen.  When they tried to add a little more of a woman's touch (Dean's girlfriend/fiance), it really took away from the show.  Fans of all genders noticed.  Why?  Because it's a show about two hunter brothers.  

I feel as though it's a form of censorship to tell the creator of a show, "hey, you built a show around two brothers who are hunters, they're kind of a duo (i.e. loners), how DARE you.  How dare you not give them a cheeky female sidekick.  How DARE you not give one of them a nagging wife who complains each time their hubby has to go off and save the world.  Do it my way.  Make the world I want."  

Now, before someone starts in with the usual bullshit, "well, I guess writers can write worlds where white people beat down minorities and women are raped on every corner," let us remember the context, shall we?  The whole premise of the story centers around brothers.  Check.  It is a supernatural world where demons (being equal opportunity parasites) inhabit both men and women.  Check.  Hunters don't like demons.  Check.  Hunters vanquish demons.  Check.  Sometimes physical violence ensues.  Sometimes a good ole fashioned exorcism occurs.  Check Check.  

Now, there is the possibility that the "asshole" writers could just say, "okay, so, let's make Sam and Dean incapable of harming any female on the series (even if it's an enraged harpy that's about to rip their faces off and eat a nursery full of babies), if demons had one ounce of sense, well, they'd only pick female hosts.  Problem solved.  Satan rules the world."  Show over.  

Maybe it's just me, but when people reach too far (by making claims that Dean's testosterone-driven frenzy against the femme-demon would have propelled him into tearing off her clothes and raping that demon right out of her), yeah, that's going to be met with intensity.  Everyone has a right to their opinions.  My opinion is that I just so happen to disagree (vehemently) with someone else's.  

God forbid a woman who has taken women's studies (and considers herself and most of the populace feminist), actually recognize that there is a difference between promoting violence against women and simply telling a story about a dude (or dudes) fighting a demon and wanting to save the world.  Maybe society has become numb against supernatural creatures.  Aww, that demon must have goodness inside, just like the sparkling vampires and Sookie's "fairy vagina" (thank you Pam).  But, this is Supernatural.  Hunters kill stuff.  Demons, werewolves, vampires, even fairies.  Gender makes no difference to them.  It never has.  It never should.  Otherwise, they would utterly suck at what they do.

What?  Well, what's keeping them from running out and gang-raping women who might or might not be vampires or sprites or hookers at truck stops?  Well, they're the gor'ram Winchesters. Even at Dean and Sam's darkest (and we're talking stuck in a cell with Satan and being tortured for fun kind of "darkest"), they're not rapists. I think the creative team has done enough work to show that at the very least.  

Before I'm accused of accosting the board with my hysteria, I will say that Kevin Tran is absolutely the biggest bucket of awesome that I have seen since the GhostFacers.  But, one could argue that because they made him male, well, women must not be smart enough to be neither gifted academically nor capable of divine destiny.  

Oh, and as for the blondes, that went over my head.  It's been a long time since season 1.  I may go back and check that out now.  That said, this is the CW network.  Lots of blondes.  Either way, I can stomach it, especially given my love for later incarnations of Meg (and Bella, rest her soul).  Jo was a blonde, but she was awesome.  I don't see her awesomeness being any different because of her hair color.  She just is.  Awesome.  Period.

Edited by ZombieWife, 05 May 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[Menos Grande]

I love Supernatural , I watched for years, and only one thing bothers me..
Power Levels.
Angels are stronger than gods... They justified in this season that "As the old gods aren't worshiped anymore they losed their previous powers" And yet there were some gods worshiped still today in the episode "Hammer Of god" that became play things for Lúcifer... I get it plotwise, but it doesnt add up for me, and I don't like to see them reduced to simple monster eating people that they made them.
Afterwords the Leviathans came... and now he've learned that Leviathans are stronger than angels >_> (that could only be killed by angels swords before).
Leviathans are hard to kill, that's ok! But stronger than angels? Humans (Sam and Dean) could capture and desmember some Leviathans, I would get it if the angels didn't had the power to kill leviathans, but not the power to fight?
So Leviathans are stronger than gods also? Lame ;(.. the only constant thing for now is DEATH that it is what is expected from him, for now anyways.

[ZombieWife]

Menos Grande, on 05 May 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

I love Supernatural , I watched for years, and only one thing bothers me..
Power Levels.
Angels are stronger than gods... They justified in this season that "As the old gods aren't worshiped anymore they losed their previous powers" And yet there were some gods worshiped still today in the episode "Hammer Of god" that became play things for Lúcifer... I get it plotwise, but it doesnt add up for me, and I don't like to see them reduced to simple monster eating people that they made them.
Afterwords the Leviathans came... and now he've learned that Leviathans are stronger than angels >_> (that could only be killed by angels swords before).
Leviathans are hard to kill, that's ok! But stronger than angels? Humans (Sam and Dean) could capture and desmember some Leviathans, I would get it if the angels didn't had the power to kill leviathans, but not the power to fight?
So Leviathans are stronger than gods also? Lame ;(.. the only constant thing for now is DEATH that it is what is expected from him, for now anyways.

I think that there are a LOT of inconsistencies with power and agency in this world.  The "gods" thing kind of baffles me, especially the episode that includes all the gods getting together to talk about the end times (Shiva and some others).  Why make them so, uh, weak?  A demi-god?  I can see some of the more powerful angels owning that, sure.

The Leviathans baffle me.  I think it's the weakest foe (in terms of being interesting and compelling) so far for the Winchesters.  I found them overly powerful, like the writers just had to come up with some bigger bad "thing" that would own everything (except for God of course, who never shows his/her face).  

For me, I feel like Gods/demigods should be at the top.
Followed by Angels and Demons (equally) - I like that balance

And things stacking up beneath that.  

They're getting an 8th season.  I wonder what's next, ya know?  They should have a wrap up season where all the loose end past conflict catches up with them somehow.    I think they'd be more worried about the FBI were that the case.

[Simon Steele]

This show still on the air and sucking balls? I heard the Winchesters are completely in the passenger seat now while other characters do all the stuff for them. I remember when they used to kick ass, but ever since season 5 they've kind of just been standing there getting their asses kicked.

I'm calling in all my satanic favors--this show should be canceled by the end of the month.

[Evamitchelle]

JetboyGirl, on 05 May 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Although I don't think it is all as bad as TrackerNeil says, I've definitely been annoyed at the treatment of women at certain points in the show's history. Obviously the casting person had a thing for bleached blondes, for example, because in season 1 it was like every other chick was some hot blond and they never did anything interesting. I know at the beginning they had some women on the writing staff, but I've wondered more than once if they do anymore.

Sera Gamble has been the showrunner for the past two seasons. For Season 7 there were 2 other women writers I could find on the wiki with a total of 7 episodes between the three of them, about 1/3 of the season. Not that much, but not nonexistent either (especially since the showrunner's a woman).

Edited by Evamitchelle, 06 May 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Lord of the Night]

Simon Steele, on 06 May 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

This show still on the air and sucking balls? I heard the Winchesters are completely in the passenger seat now while other characters do all the stuff for them. I remember when they used to kick ass, but ever since season 5 they've kind of just been standing there getting their asses kicked.

I'm calling in all my satanic favors--this show should be canceled by the end of the month.

Yes it is still on the air but no its still not sucking, but getting better with every episode. And no, just no. The Winchesters have been totally in the driver's seat for the last few episodes, the only stuff that others have done for them is the stuff they cannot do themselves.

If you don't like the show, don't discuss it.

It seems the dark prince has not listened to you, Supernatural was renewed for an 8th season a few days ago.

Menos Grande, on 05 May 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

I love Supernatural , I watched for years, and only one thing bothers me..

Power Levels.

Angels are stronger than gods... They justified in this season that "As the old gods aren't worshiped anymore they losed their previous powers" And yet there were some gods worshiped still today in the episode "Hammer Of god" that became play things for Lúcifer... I get it plotwise, but it doesnt add up for me, and I don't like to see them reduced to simple monster eating people that they made them.

Afterwords the Leviathans came... and now he've learned that Leviathans are stronger than angels >_> (that could only be killed by angels swords before).

Leviathans are hard to kill, that's ok! But stronger than angels? Humans (Sam and Dean) could capture and desmember some Leviathans, I would get it if the angels didn't had the power to kill leviathans, but not the power to fight?
So Leviathans are stronger than gods also? Lame ;(.. the only constant thing for now is DEATH that it is what is expected from him, for now anyways.

Well the Pagan Gods are weak because of the lack of worship. In one of the novels, that have been declared canon, Bobby mentions the two Pagans from the christmas episode and says that the boys shouldn't judge the gods by them. He gives an example of Zeus saying that nowadays he'd find it hard to muster up a lightning bolt, but back in the day he could have killed them just by looking at them. The Pagans have little to no power now because nobody believes in them, let alone worships them. Because of that they've been downgraded heavily.

The Leviathans predate the soul, the power source for an angel. Obviously they are more powerful than them. But everything in the show has a weakness. Demons are beaten by salt, holy water and the devil's trap. Angels are beaten by burning holy oil or blood symbols. Leviathans are weakened by borax and decapitation, which is actually the harder of all these weaknesses to exploit. And if Leviathans can beat Angels of course they can beat the Pagans. The Leviathans are the most powerful of all the creatures, it has been implied that the borax melting and decapitation doesn't actually kill them, just immobilize them permanently (Though the permanently part is more of a hope on the boys part).


LotN

[ZombieWife]

I'd argue that pagans could probably whoop some butt.  Wicca seems to be a strong, thriving belief system now and isn't there an element of nature-worship (or nature-respect, I should say).  Still a lot of that around.

So, the other gods (and demi gods) that have lost followers, hmmm, I don't know.  Aren't there still millions and millions of people worshiping the Hindu gods?  I know some gods, like Thor, Zeus and such have pretty much gone by the wayside.  

The leviathan still confound me and the way they've been presented makes me feel like the writers are "reaching."  Maybe if they weren't black-goo oozing things that had over-the-top unhinge-able jaws I'd be more interested in them?  Dick is great, sure.  The actor is really sinking his teeth into that role.

[Lord of the Night]

ZombieWife, on 06 May 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

The leviathan still confound me and the way they've been presented makes me feel like the writers are "reaching."  Maybe if they weren't black-goo oozing things that had over-the-top unhinge-able jaws I'd be more interested in them?  Dick is great, sure.  The actor is really sinking his teeth into that role.

I think they look really cool, but I like monstrous looking creatures like them. Personally I think of all the Leviathans the best two are Dick Roman (James Patrick Stewart) and Edgar (Benito Martinez). Those two have really pulled off their roles, Dick as the evil leader of the Leviathans and Edgar as his chief enforcer. Like the Emperor and Darth Vader.

Also the Leviathan Chet (Sean Owen Roberts) was good too, though not as good as Edgar and Dick. And Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki were great as LeviathanDean! and LeviathanSam!, loved their scenes with the actual brothers.


LotN

[Simon Steele]

Lord of the Night, on 06 May 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

Yes it is still on the air but no its still not sucking, but getting better with every episode. And no, just no. The Winchesters have been totally in the driver's seat for the last few episodes, the only stuff that others have done for them is the stuff they cannot do themselves.

If you don't like the show, don't discuss it.

Well, curiosity got the best of me last night and seeing as how the show is still filling up my DVR I decided to see what I'd missed over the past couple of months.

Hmmm, Bobby not dead and still leading the brothers around by the nose because they couldn't figure their ways out of a paper bag. Okay, that sounds like the drivers seat to me. Or actually, that isn't even passenger's seat, that's being towed by another vehicle. I loved the five minutes of Bobby Exposition where he explains EVERYTHING since the brothers were too dumb to figure it out over the last few months. And then once you hear the Leviathan plan, and realize how stupid this whole season is and how poorly plotted, and how...AH FUCK IT, there is no point going into all the nonsense, it's there for everyone to see. Then there's this lame ass girl guest star who shows up and takes over the whole show and does everything. Awesome job Winchesters! They did do a nice action role through some windows at the end to save her, but they had no weapons, and then Bobby did the fighting. Driver's seat! Oh and then Ruby or Meg or whatever it is shows up and kills some angels.

Yep, all in all, things seems to be getting better in Supernatural land. Of course I watched the middle parts of these on heavy fast forward considering how boring, dull, and uninspired they were, so maybe I missed something subtle that the Winchesters did that was really cool. I'm guessing not.

Man, this driver's seat analogy is so great because Dean used to get pissed if anyone else drove his car but him. But ever since the angels showed up, especially in season 5, he hasn't made much of a fuss about it. He's been on autopilot.

8th season huh? Oh well, I guess I called in the favor after the fact, so little good that did. This show is like Smallville. My brother watched that for like ten years. Didn't make it any good. Maybe early on, but pretty soon the bad seasons are going to far outnumber the good.

Edited by Simon Steele, 06 May 2012 - 01:22 PM.