236 replies to this topic

[SerBronn]

Ghost714, on 19 January 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

I believe the story has two parts, magic, and politics. I don't believe the story will end, in one big "magic fight". I think half the characters will be involved in the final "magic fight"(against the Others), and the other half of the characters will be involved in the final "political fight"(for the Iron Throne). So yeah, I believe these two "fights" will happen right at the same time, or one after the other. Either way the ending won't just be about a "magic fight". Both "fights" will be equally big. But even if the Battle against the Others is the last thing to happen, I would not say the book ended, being about magic......... Now that I think about it, I dont believe the two "fights", will happen at the same time. Because there are a lot of characters, that would potentially be in both "fights". So I am now defiantly leaning towards these two events happening, one after an other.
(I hope you guys can make sense of what I am trying to say here)

Totally understand what you're trying to say and I agree. However I believe the political war and the war for good vs. evil eventually have to merge into one or at least be in acknowledgement of each other.
Basically I have two main observations/hypotheses:

1. Dany and her dragons must (at some point) in the next book get to Westeros to retake the Iron Throne in the name of the targaryens. (Whether is her and/or Aegon that sits the throne remains to be seen, though I think a shared rule would be awesome.
Dany will eventually find out about the cold threat to the North and the Long Night (winter) and defend her newly won realm against said threat. As the books continue to say that the best weapon against the Others and their wights is DRAGONglass. (Obsidian) Im guessing dragonFIRE will work just as well.

2. Obviously Dany still needs to find some way to control her dragons, I think if she manages to get them across the many leagues to Westeros, Aegon and Bran could be the ones to control Viserion and Rhaegal. Bran would obviously use them to defeat The Others and Dany (im assuming judging by her character tendencies) will want to help as well. (after the throne has been taken). I think a great conclusion to the series would have to be something along the lines of a good vs. evil fight. The only power in GRRM's world that could possibly create a peace amongst so many warring sides would be a common enemy against which all citizens of Westeros must unite against or die.
Just like Robert discussed - one nation united under one ruler to make one army.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

It's been implied in several places that when a person dies he or she becomes "one with nature," the spirit entering the earth and trees, etc.  Perhaps Bran will encounter some remnant of Rhaegar, Lyanna, et al. themselves and get a vision of past events that way?  In addition, followers of the Old Gods seem to go to the godwoods to meditate and pray about things, and those prayers are remembered by the trees, like Ned's in Bran's first vision.  That's another way we can learn something of the past.  I just hope GRRM stops interrupting the stories in the middle, dang it!

[Brynden Bloodraven]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 19 January 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

It's been implied in several places that when a person dies he or she becomes "one with nature," the spirit entering the earth and trees, etc.  Perhaps Bran will encounter some remnant of Rhaegar, Lyanna, et al. themselves and get a vision of past events that way?  In addition, followers of the Old Gods seem to go to the godwoods to meditate and pray about things, and those prayers are remembered by the trees, like Ned's in Bran's first vision.  That's another way we can learn something of the past.  I just hope GRRM stops interrupting the stories in the middle, dang it!

The "one with nature" thing doesn't really play into Bran's ability to see the past... he can see events that took place near weirwood trees. I think this has been discussed elsewhere, but there are theories that some of the Rhaegar/Lyanna story will be revealed through Bran looking back and seeing them in the TOJ. GRRM also mentioned in his authors@google Q & A that he will be expanding backward through time as well as forward to fill in holes in stories like R + L and Robert's Rebellion. We've also got a good deal of information on Bloodraven (adds to Bran's story) and the Blackfyre Rebellion (adds to Aegon/Young Griff's story, if some theories of his actual parentage are to be believed) in the Dunk and Egg tales.

Bran would be an excellent vehicle to give us actual witness accounts of some of these events rather than the hear-say we get from others (even in Dunk and Egg, we hear about Bloodraven and the Blackfyre deal as second-hand accounts, and only get a few pages of direct interaction with Bloodraven himself in the Mystery Knight.

I like the idea that Bran can see the past and present via the weirwood faces since time has little meaning for these trees (which will live forever if not cut down).

[Random person in the North]

I don't think Bran is warging Asha or will warg any other human being.  It would be pretty bad if any time one of the major characters makes an unexpected decision we instantly jumped to "it's because Bran has warged them".

Asha could want Stannis to sacrifice Theon to the tree for any one of (or a combination of) a few reasons:

1 - it's better than burning him alive.

2 - she genuinely believes it would be appropriate to sacrifice him to Ned's gods for his crimes against Ned's  children (this doesn't mean she now worships the trees - religion in asoiaf seems on the whole to respect that other traditions have their own power).

3 - she still needs Theon to overturn Euron's kingsmoot and wants to call Stannis' bluff on killing him.  By her giving voice to the idea of sacrificing Theon to the old gods would be appropriate she makes it hard for Stannis to ignore the idea but - crucially - politically impossible to burn him.

4 - she still intends to build a future for the Ironborn on the coasts of the North and this is a way of ensuring that the houses of the North know she respects their traditions.

I may also be in a minority when it comes to Bran in that I'm not sure he'll stay with the CotF and BR.  That would seem to be the obvious and easy thing to do.  The characters in asoiaf are human characters - human characters don't always do the obvious and easy things.  It could be that Bran decides he'd rather fight than wait for death (he says something that would foreshadow this in ADWD).  It could be that Bran sees the future death of Jojen and Meera and decides to see if he can change it.  

Maybe he will never have the power to do much more than watch if he stays where he is?  How awful that would be - to see the world being destroyed but being powerless to do anything about it.

[Nev yn]

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As the books continue to say that the best weapon against the Others and their wights is DRAGONglass.

Actually, dragonglass only works against the Others.  Against wights, it's just a sharp but very brittle weapon.  They're just dead flesh, not otherworldly-magical ice creatures.  Dragonfire would be rather useful against wights, though.

[Lady Octarina]

Random person in the North, on 25 January 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

I don't think Bran is warging Asha or will warg any other human being.  It would be pretty bad if any time one of the major characters makes an unexpected decision we instantly jumped to "it's because Bran has warged them".

Asha could want Stannis to sacrifice Theon to the tree for any one of (or a combination of) a few reasons:

1 - it's better than burning him alive.

2 - she genuinely believes it would be appropriate to sacrifice him to Ned's gods for his crimes against Ned's  children (this doesn't mean she now worships the trees - religion in asoiaf seems on the whole to respect that other traditions have their own power).

3 - she still needs Theon to overturn Euron's kingsmoot and wants to call Stannis' bluff on killing him.  By her giving voice to the idea of sacrificing Theon to the old gods would be appropriate she makes it hard for Stannis to ignore the idea but - crucially - politically impossible to burn him.

4 - she still intends to build a future for the Ironborn on the coasts of the North and this is a way of ensuring that the houses of the North know she respects their traditions.

I may also be in a minority when it comes to Bran in that I'm not sure he'll stay with the CotF and BR.  That would seem to be the obvious and easy thing to do.  The characters in asoiaf are human characters - human characters don't always do the obvious and easy things.  It could be that Bran decides he'd rather fight than wait for death (he says something that would foreshadow this in ADWD).  It could be that Bran sees the future death of Jojen and Meera and decides to see if he can change it.  

Maybe he will never have the power to do much more than watch if he stays where he is?  How awful that would be - to see the world being destroyed but being powerless to do anything about it.

I agree with how you interpret Asha's behaviour, but about Bran... I can see how frustrating his remaining in the caves would be, but isn't it "necessary" to always have someone there watching things? That's what I gathered from those chapters... besides, how would he return South? It's very unlikely that happens the same way he got there, they're all weakened, and Jojen is probably dying. They have little chance of reaching the Wall while the Others are around, and winter is on them. But then, if they go South after Spring comes, what would be the point anyway?

[Westerirei]

Nev yn, on 25 January 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Actually, dragonglass only works against the Others.  Against wights, it's just a sharp but very brittle weapon.  They're just dead flesh, not otherworldly-magical ice creatures.  Dragonfire would be rather useful against wights, though.

Are you sure of it?

[Nev yn]

Quote

Are you sure of it?

Uh, yeah, the books were quite explicit.  Try A Storm of Swords, the third Samwell chapter.  Dragonsteel would be pretty useful against the wights, but that's mainly due to its merit as a very sharp and durable piece of steel.  Fire (dragon or otherwise) would be better.

Edited by Nev yn, 26 January 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[GrandPoobah]

AryaFaceless, on 31 December 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

well i think the children = others so i think bran will snatch his ass in a bear trap.

So they planted hoards of weapons that would kill them Beyond-the-Wall?

[GrandPoobah]

ShadowRaven, on 29 December 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

The one and only reason I can think of is that Bran is communicating through them. If he can already shout a few names, what could he do when his powers grow? Do you think he could actually speak via a crow?

Thing to realize: When Jeor Mormont's/Jon Snow's crow was saying all those things over the past few books, that was actually Bloodraven talking. Giving council (wanted or not) to his successors. I don't imagine Bran will immediately become a better Greenseer than Bloodraven is/was. Though maybe that's not even wanted or needed?

What made Mormont's crow being warged into by Bloodraven work so well was that Mormont just thought it was a pesky but seemingly smart bird. If he thought it was possessed by an outside intelligence wouldn't he have gotten rid of it or turned it over to Aemon Targaryen for study/dissection? The bird sits there and spies for Bloodraven/Bran. And sometimes it cues the characters to take certain actions by saying/suggesting things.

The key for that working is for it to seem somewhat coincidental rather than magical. It needs to be seen as a quirky pet, not an oracle.

[Westerirei]

Nev yn, on 26 January 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Uh, yeah, the books were quite explicit.  Try A Storm of Swords, the third Samwell chapter.  Dragonsteel would be pretty useful against the wights, but that's mainly due to its merit as a very sharp and durable piece of steel.  Fire (dragon or otherwise) would be better.

"He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in
Paul’s heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the
iron mail beneath the wool"

"His fumbling fingers finally found the dagger, but when he slammed it up into the wight’s belly
the point skidded off the iron links, and the blade went spinning from Sam’s hand."

He never even touched the wight with the dragonglass, from all we know it could still prove to kill the wights.

Lady Octarina, on 25 January 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

besides, how would he return South? It's very unlikely that happens the same way he got there, they're all weakened, and Jojen is probably dying. They have little chance of reaching the Wall while the Others are around, and winter is on them. But then, if they go South after Spring comes, what would be the point anyway?

My pet theory is that underground caves from BloodRaven liar leads straight to the deepest crypts of Winterfel. And deus ex machina we have long lost boy, Lord of the Winterfel present in the castle when no one is expects it.

Edited by Westerirei, 26 January 2012 - 03:46 PM.

[Nev yn]

Quote

He never even touched the wight with the dragonglass, from all we know it could still prove to kill the wights.

The dragonglass went right through the Others' "armor".  It's a magical weakness.  As a wight is just a reanimated corpse, there's absolutely no reason to assume they'd handle being cut by obsidian any differently than a human (that is, "bleed" a bit and otherwise go on doing what they were doing).

Oh, and here from another Samwell POV (I knew I had seen "only dead flesh" in canon, so I had to track it down):

Quote

Sam cleared his throat.  "S-sire.  The dagger...the dragonglass only shattered when I tried to stab a wight."

Melisandre smiled.  "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh.  Steel and fire will serve for them.  The ones you call the Others are something more."

While Melisandre is fallible, this seems the sort of thing the self-styled opponents of the Great Other might have some inkling on...

[Westerirei]

I'm still not convinced. We will have to wait for someone to actually cut wight with obsidian.

[Dream Hawk]

Ok I originally made these points on another thread concerning Jon Snow's death/ ressurection/ whatever so sorry if they're a bit irrelevant/ already been said.

I think Bran has been watching over Jon (point 1 below) and if anyone will ressurect Jon, I think it will be Bran, not Mellisandre (point 2)

1. Bran can see through the eyes of the Weirwoods and Ravens. When Theon is praying in the Godswood of Winterfell, the heart tree whispers his name, who else could it be if not Bran?
There's a scene in ADWD when Mormont's raven is muttering "corn, snow" and then he abrubtly says "Jon Snow, Jon Snow" and Jon remarks that it was "queer" because the raven had never used his full name before. That's why I think the raven was Bran or Bloodraven even.

2. Mellisandre talks of two gods; R'hollor who brings light and the Other who must not be named, who lives in darkness. She sees a man with a white wooden face beside a boy with a wolf head in her fires and she thinks they are the champions of the Other god, as Stannis is hers. The wooden man and the wolf head boy are obviously Bran and Bloodraven and there is a scene where Bloodraven tells Bran not to fear the dark but to embrace it. Now I'm not saying Bran and BR control the Others/ Wights, I completely disagree with that theory. I do however think Melisandre sees them in her fires because maybe they are a threat, to her most likely. She says her power has never been stronger than at the wall but she worships a "false" god in the eyes of the north and Bran is

a Stark who's faith is strongly rooted (pardon the pun ) in the old gods.

Also, haven't really thought this through but the Stark kids got those Direwolves for a reason, they've been influential to the story but I can't help but think it's only building up to their true purpose. There has to be a reason why all of the Stark children are wargs and I think it has something to do with Bran's power. We can already see him developing into an influential character and maybe it's him who binds them all together even though they're scattered throughout Westeros and the Free Cities.
And the fact that Sansa lost her wolf so early in the story is bound to be influential in what happens to her as a character, Ned says as much in AGOT. He says that he should never have let them kill Lady, and I think it's going to ring true.

Of course, I could be completely off the mark

[Francis Buck]

Nev yn, on 26 January 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

The dragonglass went right through the Others' "armor".  It's a magical weakness.  As a wight is just a reanimated corpse, there's absolutely no reason to assume they'd handle being cut by obsidian any differently than a human (that is, "bleed" a bit and otherwise go on doing what they were doing).

Oh, and here from another Samwell POV (I knew I had seen "only dead flesh" in canon, so I had to track it down):



While Melisandre is fallible, this seems the sort of thing the self-styled opponents of the Great Other might have some inkling on...

To be fair, the Other's armor is actually magical in and of itself. This is not the case with the wights, who are simply wearing whatever normal armor they were wearing in life. So even if the obsidian can kill a wight, it would be really weird if somehow their normal armor suddenly took on this same magical trait. I'm not saying obsidian definitely works on them, but I certainly wouldn't call it "explicitly stated". Especially since the wight's bodies clearly don't react to damage the way normal human bodies do. I mean, a dismembered wight hand can still be moving for weeks (possibly months) on end, despite lacking tendons attached to anything, and we know that fire magically kills them right away.

Edited by Francis Buck, 26 January 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[Nev yn]

Quote

Especially since the wight's bodies clearly don't react to damage the way normal human bodies do.  I mean, a dismembered wight hand can still be moving for weeks (possibly months) on end, despite lacking tendons attached to anything

This makes it more likely that a scratch with obsidian will...what?  Make them melt like Others?

Quote

and we know that fire magically kills them right away.

Actually, no, we know that it doesn't.  They keep moving around and thrashing, just like a normal person would.  There's no real magic to it, that we've seen, aside from the fact that they eventually stop moving.  The same as Jafer Flowers eventually stopped moving when Nights Watchmen hacked him apart.  Fire's just prettier and lets you keep your range while the wight is dying.

Really, we have canon from one of the few people that should know that it's steel or fire for wights.  If dragonglass also worked, why wouldn't that be the first suggestion?  Much safer to aim for exposed skin with dragonglass than to try and hack them apart with a sword.  Wights don't walk around in full platemail like knights.

[MtnLion]

To be pedantic, wights burn much more readily than a person would.  Jon thinks to himself how easy it is to set them ablaze, and once the meat is gone (only bones remaining) they quit moving, remembering that they are dead.

[Ghost714]

This is my response to the Wights and dragon glass(Obsidian) conversation.

I think the text supports the fact, that dragon glass is only really effective when using it against the Others.
-Dragon glass, is said to be "frozen dragon flame".
Isn't dragon flame suppose to be like fire from the sun? Well the Others don't come out when the sun is shining. So it makes sense, frozen dragon flame, wich is like frozen "sun fire", kills the Others. (this same theory makes sense, for why Valyrian Steel, or "dragon steel, would work in killing the Others......Valyrian steel is made from dragon flame, dragon flame is like the fire of the sun....     Others+Sun=Dead Others)

I think you "could" use obsidian, for a blade against a Wight, but I don't think it would be any more effective than a steel blade. In fact it would probably be worse, considering obsidian is not that durable. It really would not be good to use obsidian, on a Wight wearing armor though, as Sam the Slayer found out, when fighting small Paul.
However, even though the Others wear armor, obsidian still works very well against them. I believe it's because the armor that the Others wear is "magic", and obsidian is also a "magic" thing, in these books. (when you stab an Other with obsidian, they melt, even if you stab there armor....that's also why I think when you stab an other with obsidian, it's like them getting hit by dragon flame, and dragon flame is like the fire of the sun, ergo you have a dead melted Other)

So basically, Everything about the Others is "magic", The Others themselves are like a "magical beings", there armor is "magic", there swords are "magic". So dragon glass, also being "magically frozen dragon flame", kills the Others.
But when it comes to a Wight , there armor is not "magic", there bodies are not "magic", the only thing that is "magic", is the "magic" that reanimated them. You can't really stab the "magic" part of a Wight with obsidian, but you can with an Other, because every part of them is "magic".

That's my opinion any way. (sorry for all the  "    " in my post lol)

Edited by Ghost714, 27 January 2012 - 01:46 AM.

[the wolf warg]

chickenly, on 05 January 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

I always thought Robb accidentally warged Cat before he died and it's why she starts clawing at her face like the wildling.

this would explain why she is acting so bloodthirsty now and killing people maybe its rob in her body trying to extract revenge

[Ghost714]

the wolf warg, on 27 January 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

this would explain why she is acting so bloodthirsty now and killing people maybe its rob in her body trying to extract revenge

You make it sound like Catelyn would not be just as blood thirsty, as Robb would? And you make it sound like Catelyn would not want revenge, just as much as Robb would.

When Jaime first hears about Joffrey's death, Jaime considers his lack of emotion, considering he just heard about the death of his son.
My point being, Jaime then thinks about, when parents hear about the death of there children, they are said to pull their hair out, and go crazy(this is in my own words, but Jaime thinks something like that).

The reason why I brought up the stuff about Jaime, is because Catelyn's reaction when Robb dies , is exactly how Jaime said a parent should react, when hearing about, and or seeing, the death of their child.

Not to mention Robb was not the first for Catelyn. She had to deal with losing her husband, and her father, and she thought Bran and Rickon were dead, and she was seperated from her two daughters. She knew that Sansa was married off to Tyrion (I can't remember what she thought had become of Arya exactly, but Catelyn wasn't able to get to Arya, so Arya was lost to her in a sense).
Also Winterfell was lost to Catelyn along with everyone she knew there. That was her home for like the last 15 years, and those people were her friends.

So I think Catelyn's reaction to the slaughter of her last son, and his Bannermen, is completely understandable, especially when considering everything else that had happened to her.

So in short, I don't think Catelyn was "warged" at all by Robb, and Catelyn going bat-shit-crazy at that point was completely understandable, considering ALL the Circumstances.