85 replies to this topic

[Lions-and-Roses]

Three generations, but who would win?

Personally I'm going to go with Barristan. What do you guys think?

[ShadowRaven]

Young Barristan vs Jaime & Loras = Barristan crush them like they are nothing.
Old Barristan vs Jaime with two hands = not sure.
Old Barristan vs Loras = Barristan hands down.

[Ran]

There's no such thing as a peerless warrior. On any given Sunday, so to speak...

But if you just looked at it in terms of percentages, Ser Barristan and Ser Jaime in their respective primes would be a toss-up (much as Ser Arthur Dayne without Dawn vs. Ser Barristan in his prime was a toss-up, according to George; Dayne _with_ Dawn, OTOH, he gave to Dayne). If you look at it as of AGoT, it'd be Jaime and then I'd give the edge to Barristan over Loras, simply in terms of greater experience. Loras is a very good sword, but he's not a "Top 5 in the realm" swordsman.

[Lions-and-Roses]

Ran, on 29 December 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

There's no such thing as a peerless warrior. On any given Sunday, so to speak...

But if you just looked at it in terms of percentages, Ser Barristan and Ser Jaime in their respective primes would be a toss-up (much as Ser Arthur Dayne without Dawn vs. Ser Barristan in his prime was a toss-up, according to George; Dayne _with_ Dawn, OTOH, he gave to Dayne). If you look at it as of AGoT, it'd be Jaime and then I'd give the edge to Barristan over Loras, simply in terms of greater experience. Loras is a very good sword, but he's not a "Top 5 in the realm" swordsman.

Who would you say were the top 5 in the realm?

[Fred Baratheon]

Barristan then Loras then Jamie

[4rcane]

I pick the Hound. Jaime often regarded the Hound as a better swordman than him. The Hound was also a king's guard as well

[Zaydan]

If I remember correctly, Jaime never refers to the Hound as a better swordsman than him, only that the Hound is "formidable" or that a fight between them would've been "epic" (paraphrased). On any given day, I'd give Jaime a very slight edge to win it.

Btw being a kingsguard these days don't mean much. Back in the days 15 years ago, yeah, maybe, but now, with Blount, Trant, etc., not so much. Jaime said so himself in AFFC when he thought to himself : "give me leave to find my own members of the kingsguards and I'll find better men than this lot" (again, paraphrased).

And Sandor only lately became a kingsguard. He detested knighthood.

Back to the original topic, on their peak, it'll be a toss between Barristan and Jaime. Both are naturally excellent swordsmen, those who come once in a generation. Loras is very good, probably even better than Jaime with lance, but Jaime is bigger, taller, better and will definitely kick his ass in a fight.

[Fred Baratheon]

I guess I'm jaded because in the actual arc of the books I've seen Jamie:

• Get shoved to the ground by a drunken Robert
  
• Get de-horsed and have his helmet turned backwards so he had to stumble off the pitch
  
• Lose a battle and get captured by non-descript Starks
  
• Fail to escape and get captured by non-descript Starks
  
• Get beat by Brienne

...and it's only downhill from there

[The Mother of The Others]

Is it a 3 way?

triple threat matches are almost always a groaner in which the reigning WWE champion finds a cheap way to hang on to the title belt.  

So I guess in this scenario Selmy would be the bitter ex-champ who demands a rematch with Jaime at this month's Pay-Per-View.  But then Vince McMahon adds Loras to the match late as a 3rd contender.  Loras the young upstart--or is he about to become a legend killer?!?!?!   The week before the big showdown, Selmy knocks Jaime unconscious in the middle of the ring with a steel chair, then he puts Jaime's hand through the slot in the chair before.....oh no!..... Selmy is climbing to the top rope and jumping off onto the chair with Jaime's hand in it!   That hand is going to be useless this Sunday!

[Neo]

Lions-and-Roses, on 29 December 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

Who would you say were the top 5 in the realm?

Not counting the time period before AGoT, and only counting 'swordsmen' as opposed to axemen and spearmen etc my top 5 would probably be:

Jaime Lannister
Barristan Selmy
Garlan Tyrell
Sandor Clegane
Bronn

Jaime not only had an incredible reputation as a swordsman, but we saw him give Brienne the fight of her life even though he was malnourished, weakened by imprisonment and shackled by chains. He was the best in Westeros when he had both hands IMO.

Barristan and Sandor both have fearsome reputations, and we've also seen them both in action against strong opponents; Barristan against the Titan's Bastard and the epic fight against Krazz in ADwD, and Sandor defeating Dondarrion and some of his Gregor's men.

Garlan was a key figure in the Battle of the Blackwater when he donned Renly's armour, and we also know that he regularly practices his swordsmanship against more than one opponent at a time. He is superior to Loras with the sword IMO.

Bronn is the most under-rated sword in the series IMO. As a high-born lady Catelyn Stark would have seen her fair share of tourneys and melees, and she remarks that Bronn is as good a sword she's ever seen. He also seems to think very tactically, which we see when he outwits Vardis Egan, the finest knight of the Vale. We also see his astuteness when he's watching swordsmen practicing at the Red Keep and also when he talks with Tyrion about the correct strategy to defeat the Mountain in single-combat.

Another possible contender for a top 5 place is Darkstar. Unfortunately hasn't exactly shown much prowess yet, but the reputation of 'the most dangerous man in Dorne' must be his for a reason so I think he could make a case for being in the top 5 once we see him in real action.

[solarbear]

Brianne might turn out to be the best sword once seasoned a bit more.  She beat Loras in the mele and Jamie.

The fact the Hound does not care if he dies makes him more dangerous overall.

Of the three, two handed Jamie would probably beat the other two for a similar reason to the hound.

Edited by solarbear, 29 December 2011 - 09:13 PM.

[zalim]

Young Barristan will crush them both.
2nd position Loras


I dont know why people count Jamie amongst the best. He didnt do anything that special. Just because he is rich, his deeds become more known.
There must be 1000 better knights  thn Jamie in Westeros. Sure he isnt bad but he isnt that special. The only special thing he did was, killed the umarmed king.
Push a boy from a window and incest. These are his success stories and yeh he lost a hand but all of these things have nothing to do with
Swords, he did won a melee in a very small age but so what, those are just games plus there must be many squires who have won Melees.
His other record isnt that impressive as well so i dont know what ppl see in him.

Barristan Selmy
Arthur Dayne
Robert Baratheon


They are the big guns, jamie is not amongst them, i dont even consider him to be in the same league.

[Neo]

zalim, on 29 December 2011 - 09:33 PM, said:

Young Barristan will crush them both.
2nd position Loras


I dont know why people count Jamie amongst the best. He didnt do anything that special. Just because he is rich, his deeds become more known.
There must be 1000 better knights  thn Jamie in Westeros. Sure he isnt bad but he isnt that special. The only special thing he did was, killed the umarmed king.
Push a boy from a window and incest. These are his success stories and yeh he lost a hand but all of these things have nothing to do with
Swords, he did won a melee in a very small age but so what, those are just games plus there must be many squires who have won Melees.
His other record isnt that impressive as well so i dont know what ppl see in him.

Barristan Selmy
Arthur Dayne
Robert Baratheon


They are the big guns, jamie is not amongst them, i dont even consider him to be in the same league.

A strange argument considering Brienne defeated Loras in a melee and Jaime gave Brienne a real fight with his hands shackled and his body weakened by the cells of Riverrun.

Jaime is clearly one of the elite swordsmen in Westeros; I don't quite understand why you are bringing his incest with Cercei and attempted murder of Bran into this...

[zalim]

Neo, on 29 December 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:

A strange argument considering Brienne defeated Loras in a melee and Jaime gave Brienne a real fight with his hands shackled and his body weakened by the cells of Riverrun.

Jaime is clearly one of the elite swordsmen in Westeros; I don't quite understand why you are bringing his incest with Cercei and attempted murder of Bran into this...

Well i dont consider winning in games to be something extremely special. Loras brought down the mountain but that doesnt mean loras stand a chance against him in melee. Games are different and real battles are different. Loras has prooved himself where Jamie has done only, well what jamie does best nothing but crappy stuff.

I mentioned those things because those the things Jamie should be known for and he is known for all those things but def not for being a best swordsman, he clearly is not.

[Neo]

zalim, on 29 December 2011 - 09:53 PM, said:

Well i dont consider winning in games to be something extremely special. Loras brought down the mountain but that doesnt mean loras stand a chance against him in melee. Games are different and real battles are different. Loras has prooved himself where Jamie has done only, well what jamie does best nothing but crappy stuff.

I mentioned those things because those the things Jamie should be known for and he is known for all those things but def not for being a best swordsman, he clearly is not.

When has Loras proved himself with a sword? And Jaime's fight with Brienne wasn't a 'game'.

Also you seem to have forgotten Jaime's role in the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Your argument is very weak.

[zalim]

Neo, on 29 December 2011 - 09:56 PM, said:

When has Loras proved himself with a sword? And Jaime's fight with Brienne wasn't a 'game'.

Also you seem to have forgotten Jaime's role in the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood. Your argument is very weak.

Battle of Blackwater
Ending the siege of Dragonestone (true he is badly injured but he did win a great victory there)

He still lost to a women nothing special to make him one of the bests.
Barassitan is old yet still kicking now that is how a swordsman supposed to be.

Jamie isnt even in the same league. Loras has prooven himself enough.

There is no argument here what so ever, Only facts and only one person is right here and i know its me.

[The King in the South]

Loras even says his brother Garlan is better than him, so I don't know why he's being considered a top 3 fighter. He's more of a jouster anyways.

[Neo]

zalim, on 29 December 2011 - 10:04 PM, said:

Battle of Blackwater
Ending the siege of Dragonestone (true he is badly injured but he did win a great victory there)

He still lost to a women nothing special to make him one of the bests.
Barassitan is old yet still kicking now that is how a swordsman supposed to be.

Jamie isnt even in the same league. Loras has prooven himself enough.

There is no argument here what so ever, Only facts and only one person is right here and i know its me.

There were lots of men who did well on the Blackwater. Is Tyrion one of the finest knights in the Sven Kingdoms after his bravery? According to your logic he should be, because Loras is.

Also, we don't know what has really transpired on Dragonstone. We don't even know if there was a battle, so you using that as irrefutable proof of Loras Tyrell's combat prowess is quite naïve.

Using Barristan's seniority to claim he is superior is also wrong as we don't know how good Loras or Jaime could be at Barristan's age.

I agree with you when you say 'there is no argument here' as your argument is non-existent. Adieu.

[cheatinchuck]

i saw this comparison and i liked it - Jaime is GRRM's Warf.  He shows characters beating Jaime to show how tough they are

Barristan claimed that Jaime was the best natural swordsman he has ever seen, so that give Jaime immediate credibilty from all we've learned from Barristan.  I would put Loras last like many others here, although taking dragonstone was a pretty impressive feat.  I just think of him as half the men that Jaime and Selmy are.  

What are your thoughts on Mance?  I know is isn't really tested as a knight but he defeated every major contender north of the wall and made Jon Snow look like a Jeyne Poole.  I think the Half hand also said Mance was a better ranger then him.

[zalim]

Neo, on 29 December 2011 - 10:23 PM, said:

There were lots of men who did well on the Blackwater. Is Tyrion one of the finest knights in the Sven Kingdoms after his bravery? According to your logic he should be, because Loras is.

Also, we don't know what has really transpired on Dragonstone. We don't even know if there was a battle, so you using that as irrefutable proof of Loras Tyrell's combat prowess is quite naïve.

Using Barristan's seniority to claim he is superior is also wrong as we don't know how good Loras or Jaime could be at Barristan's age.

I agree with you when you say 'there is no argument here' as your argument is non-existent. Adieu.

Oh i consider Tyrion to be one of the heroes of Westeros. A total opposite of Jaimie, he planned and he fought, Jaimie fought in big battles under the shadow of
more skillfull knights and he has done nothing special. I still consider Loras much better swordsmen thn jaime, untill jaime proves himself which is very unlikely now.
No we dont have enough information but that is the information we have got so it can also be true. Since you cant prove it if its untrue, my point is more valid.

lol you just made a point for me youself
Barristans is better thn both because even in this age he is fit and fine and even after fighting so many battles, he still have 2 hands and 2 full legs. He isnt burned anywhere like a crisp.

Then why you bother even qoute? just ignore it and move on  but you know i am right.