Barristan vs Jaime vs Loras.

[oba]

Didn´t Barristan mention that Jaime was the best natural swordsman he had ever seen. Or at least i got that impression. He was thinking about one of his apprentices and said somethign along the lines of "best natural swordsman since Jaime Lannister"

Here's the quote:

Some of them had been training for the fighting pits when Daenerys Targaryen took Meereen and freed them from their chains. Those had had a good acquaintance with sword and spear and battle-axe even before Ser Barristan got hold of them. A few might well be ready. The boy from the Basilisk Isles, for a start. Tumco Lho. Black as maester's ink he was, but fast and strong, the best natural swordsman Selmy had seen since Jaime Lannister.

This is very high praise considering how many swordsmen Barristan has witnessed during his long career, but "best he'd seen since since Jaime Lannister" isn't exactly the same as "best he'd ever seen", particularly since Barristan has been around quite a bit longer than Jaime.

[mtwebster]

I don't think Loras' Dragonstone victory should even count at this point - we're not sure what really happened yet, and besides, (trying to wrack my brain here) didn't he get hit by boiling oil charging into what could have been a bloodless victory? I have a lot of suspicions between that and the 'fog of war' that supposedly kept reporting Dragonstone as being still held by Stannis chapters after this 'victory.' I've not seen much to impress me about Loras except games - one of which he was saved by the Hound.

Jaime, from the very first, was lauded as a legendary swordsman, I don't think we can discount that just because of the chronicled events we've witnessed. Wasn't Ned a great swordsman as well?

[Ran]

The description that we had was that Loras fought in the front of the attempt of storming the castle, personally leading the attack against the citadel against a stout defense. He killed "to left and right". Like Barristan at the Trident, he took several wounds -- one to the thigh, one to the shoulder, some broken ribs -- but continued fighting, leading the charge. Then, yes, a pot of boiling oil was dumped on him (and, presumably, others). No knight, however great their skill, can do much about having boiling oil poured onto them.

Loras sounded quite deadly and dangerous, and not a "tourney knight" who takes one wound and is out of the fight. He was a true warrior, according to that description. Martin notes that he also performed prodigious feats at the Blackwater, as well. He's genuinely one of the best knights in the realm.

[zalim]

People should need to pass a test before being allowed to post here, methinks. This post is just silly.

i totally agree with you. Rude comments arent allowed here, you really need to pass alot of tests. Read FAQ please.

[Datepalm]

Mod:

Enough with bickering and rudeness. More and it will be closed threads and bans, and none of us want that, right?

[The_Salt_Wife]

• Get beat by Brienne
  

I don't see the shame in that particular episode. He was weakened from the imprisonment and his hands were shackled. And Brienne is an excellent swordfighter herself. A well-rested, well-fed Jaime who had complete freedom of movement would have won that particular duel.

[Ser Barristan BadAss]

Without a doubt Barristan would kick Loras ass, I just see him as a pretty boy, the only thing I remember him doing was tricking Gregor Clagene to beat him in the tourny and coming second (losing to Brienne who was nearly beaten by Jamie while he was in chains)

Barristan would defeat both, even if he had only the one hand :P

[Ran]

I think there's plenty of evidence to show that what you "see" is not an accurate representation of the character. Martin has explicitly noted to a fan that he's one of the best knights in the realm, confirmed that he performed prodigious feats of arms at the Blackwater, was represented as a superior fighter to Brienne but also an orthodox one, is described by a character as having been much superior to Brienne as a swordsman, apparently killed a slew of people at Dragonstone when personally leading the attack.

[Talleyrand]

Aegon I aka Aegon the Conqueror

Barristan/Jaime/Robert Baratheon

Sandor Clegane

Gregor Clegane

Daario/Bronn/Any Dayne wielding "Dawn."

Khal Drogo/Ned Stark

Strong Belwas

Victarion Greyjoy/Hotah

I can't recall Aegon's swordmanship ever being noted, probably never had to fight that often, what with the Black Dread being his pet. And IIRC Ned is never noted as being a good swordsman, Brandon was the fighter of the family

I'd say the best in his prime would Daemon Blackfyre

[House Martell]

I had the discussion on another thread of Ned v Jamie, and my point with Jamie is that much of his reputation comes from being a member of the KG, but his appointment was based more as a political move then actual knightly worthiness. Once you're a KG your street cred goes up a 100%. Now i'm not saying he is garbage, certainly top 10, in the discussion for top 5 but we really don't know. All we've seen from him is being taken by the Stark forces (although he did take out a few guys along the way) and losing to Brienne (although at a great disadvantage). We're told he fought well against the Kingswood Brotherhood, but he also had Dayne & Selmy at his back and Dayne is the one who actually slew the Smiling Knight. So in terms of eyewitness to his deeds there isn't much to work with for Jamie. Selmy even at his current age has kicked some butt, and we have first hand accounts of his deeds in previous battles. Until we get a actual account of what happened at Dragonstone we can't really put Loras in the discussion.

So for now: Selmy-Jamie-Loras

My "in-prime" top 5: Dayne- Selmy- R.Baratheon- Oberyn (he did take down the Mountain, his pride and foolishness kept his from finishing him but you can't deny his skill took him down, one of the few instances where top contenders actually squared off)- Hound *Garlan/Bronn (honorable mention)*

[Evamitchelle]

Now i'm not saying he is garbage, certainly top 10, in the discussion for top 5 but we really don't know. All we've seen from him is being taken by the Stark forces (although he did take out a few guys along the way) and losing to Brienne (although at a great disadvantage). We're told he fought well against the Kingswood Brotherhood, but he also had Dayne & Selmy at his back and Dayne is the one who actually slew the Smiling Knight. So in terms of eyewitness to his deeds there isn't much to work with for Jamie. Selmy even at his current age has kicked some butt, and we have first hand accounts of his deeds in previous battles. Until we get a actual account of what happened at Dragonstone we can't really put Loras in the discussion.

Barristan considered him the best natural swordsman he'd seen in 25 years, Arthur Dayne seems sufficiently impressed with his skill against the Kingswood Brotherhood (where he held his own against TSK and saved Lord Crakehall's life) to knight him on the battlefield when he was 15 years old. He won his first melee at 13, a couple of tourney victories during the next few years (there's only one victory recorded in the White Book but Jaime's POV makes it clear there were more). He was only caught at the Whispering Wood after killing 3 other knights (that we know of, from the text his last charge seems to have cost the Stark a lot of men) and Brienne remembers her fight with Jaime as the fight of her life. That's plenty of eyewitnesses to Jaime's talent at arms.

[House Martell]

Being a "natural swordsmen" can also be a backhanded compliment as he hasn't worked as hard as others, to quantify it as "natural" instead of just straight up best is different. And being worthy of knighthood doesn't make you a top 5 knight in the realm. Melee's and tourney victories are meaningless, and we don't know the quality of men he "cut through" on his way to Rob, weren't they just some young Karstarks (not proven battle hardened knights). So again left with Brienne saying he is good.

[cybroleach]

We do know George has cited him as being among the best knights in the realm, in his view, and that seems fair enough. He's surely not an inferior swordsman -- Hyle Hunt, who had sparred against Brienne before and so probably had a sense of her skill, and who seems to have been familiar with the skills of the other Rainbow Guard,pointed out that it was Loras who killed Cuy and Royce, not Brienne, despite some of the rumors saying otherwise. How did he know? Because he knew Brienne wasn't skilled enough to beat them both -- Cuy, maybe, but not Royce, whom he seems sure was "twice the swordsman" that Brienne is. But he has no issue thinking that Loras Tyrell did have sufficient skill. He probably watched him in other melees, and for all we know he might have sparred with some of the Rainbow Guard on occasion for training purposes, or watched them at their training.

I'm not so sure about this, were there rumours she did kill Robar or just what Hyle himself said? Furthermore, it wasn't even a fight when Loras killed these men and Hyle could have been there with Tarly to see it. Given Hyle's praise and the fact that Robar could hold off umpteen men trying to get into the tent I've always pictured him as one of the greatest swordsman of the time and more skillful than Loras.

But on Topic, Jaime and Loras both agree he was better than Loras. Barristan we've seen kill two champions in his fifties as a young man I can't see him not killing these guys, hell with the right experence trick he might kill either of them now. A key note though is these 3 are all chamions and whould be an epic battle regardless of skill diferencial.

[Evamitchelle]

Being a "natural swordsmen" can also be a backhanded compliment as he hasn't worked as hard as others, to quantify it as "natural" instead of just straight up best is different. And being worthy of knighthood doesn't make you a top 5 knight in the realm. Melee's and tourney victories are meaningless, and we don't know the quality of men he "cut through" on his way to Rob, weren't they just some young Karstarks (not proven battle hardened knights). So again left with Brienne saying he is good.

Given the context in which Barristan says it I'm pretty sure it's not meant as a backhanded compliment. To me it just implies that Jaime is naturally talented with swords, which gives him an edge over those who have no real talent for it, and have only acquired their ability through hard work and force of will. Besides, Jaime actively enjoys fighting, it's not like he'd never train with swords, it's pretty much the only thing he enjoys besides having sex with Cersei : I think there's a memory from a Tyrion POV saying this in ACoK (can't recall the actual quote though), and Cersei also remembers that as a boy Jaime was only interested in horses and swords. Besides, fighting the Kingswood Brotherhood could be seen as proof of him putting extra work in fighting : Merret Frey, who was 4 years older and a squire of Lord Crakehall alongside Jaime, didn't do anything during that campaign besides contracting a pox and getting captured while Jaime seems to have actively pursued a fight.

As for melees and tourneys, while I agree that they're not an accurate depiction of fighting ability in themselves, all champions are usually top fighters : Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, The Hound, Loras etc. So while winning a tourney doesn't make you the best fighters, it does appear as if all the best knights have won a tourney at one point or another.

[Ran]

I'm not so sure about this, were there rumours she did kill Robar or just what Hyle himself said?

I do believe there were claims that she killed Renly and the Rainbow Guard when escaping. I think there were some other rumors about Catelyn's part in it, too.

Furthermore, it wasn't even a fight when Loras killed these men

No. George said it wasn't some formal duel, but it seems clear that Hyle understood that they did indeed attempt to fight back to defend their lives, and George certainly doesn't suggest they were cut down unarmed. Mostly I think you'd suppose that at least for a moment, there was shock, and as we're told, the men swore to their last breath they had nothing to do with Renly's death -- so they probably wasted breath and effort in trying to get Loras to stop, and may have hesitated to fight at their hardest.

Given Hyle's praise and the fact that Robar could hold off umpteen men trying to get into the tent I've always pictured him as one of the greatest swordsman of the time and more skillful than Loras.

I think Robar being a Rainbow Guard in itself would have made men hesitate as he commanded them to halt, that they didn't understand what was going on, etc. I think Robar was probably a very good swordsman, but apparently Hyle did not believe him to be superior to Loras.

[House Martell]

As for melees and tourneys, while I agree that they're not an accurate depiction of fighting ability in themselves, all champions are usually top fighters : Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, The Hound, Loras etc. So while winning a tourney doesn't make you the best fighters, it does appear as if all the best knights have won a tourney at one point or another.

He is a very good fighter, the question is top 5 and I don't see enough actual evidence to support that. He may be, but what actual events can you point to and say "him doing this proves he's better" than so and so. There are actual accounts of Dayne, Selmy, Baratheon, showing their prowess in battle. Oberyn defeats Gregor; Hound defeats Gregor, UnBeric, and a bunch of other guys here and there, Bronn wins duels and fights in battles, Garlan fights and is physically imposing, what actual battle/duel can you point to to show Jamie is better then any of those guys?

[Evamitchelle]

He is a top fighter, the question is top 5 and I don't see enough actual evidence to support that. He may be but what actual events can you point to and say "him doing this proves he's better" than so and so. There are actual accounts of Dayne, Selmy, Baratheon, showing their prowess in battle. Oberyn defeats Gregor; Hound defeats Gregor, UnBeric, and a bunch of other guys here and there, Bronn wins duels and fights in battles, Garlan fights and is physically imposing, what actual battle/duel can you point to to show Jamie is better then any of those guys?

Well there isn't that much actual evidence showing those guys' abilities either (except for Barristan) :

- Arthur Dayne : we only know of the Kingswood Brotherhood where he killed TSK and the Tower of Joy, where we don't even know what really happened or why. He's considered the best mainly because Jaime, Ned and Barristan say so, but we haven't seen that much first-hand.

- Robert Baratheon : there was his fight with Rhaegar and the Battle of the Bells where Connington almost got killed by a wounded Robert.

- Oberyn : won his duel with Gregor (mainly because he used poison, and he still died) and crippled a teenage Willas. That's pretty much all we have.

- The Hound : didn't actually defeat Gregor as their fight was interrupted by Robert's command, won against UnBeric, killed Polliver and held off the Tickler long enough for Arya to stab him to death but was seriously injured in the fight and presumably left to die

- Bronn : wins against Vardis Egen, random unnamed sellswords, does very well during the Blackwater, earning a knighthood, and the Battle of the Camps

- Jaime : held off the TSK at 15, saved Lord Crakehall from Big Belly Ben around the same time, knighted by Dayne as a result, wins the Battle of the Golden Tooth against Piper and Vance, the Battle of Riverrun against Edmure, loses the Whispering Wood but kills at least 3 men (all heirs of great northern houses) before being caught, kills 2 and injures 1 severely during his escape attempt from Riverrun, loses to Brienne (though he has been chained hand and foot in a dungeon for 6 months before, was not fed well, has to use a longsword with both hands because they are chained together and she is wearing armour when he is not).

Jaime has more first-hand evidence that the others you've mentioned (except Barristan again).

[The King in the South]

Jaime and Barristan in their primes are equal. I don't think there is one warrior that can whip everyone else.

Gregor Clegane is awesome, he's just not big and athletic like Shaq, but he is a well disciplined and trained warrior. Let's face it he's always the biggest target, so archers and folks always target him first. He's used to be the "guy I want to kill." Yet he survives.

He had a spear in his gut that was saturated with poison and he still managed to slay a clumsy Red Viper.

But one on one as Bronn and Jaime both said the way to be Gregor is to tire him out . . and be careful on your final approach when he gets down. The Red Viper should have done that.

But as for warriors in their prime I go

Aegon I aka Aegon the Conqueror

Barristan/Jaime/Robert Baratheon

Sandor Clegane

Gregor Clegane

Daario/Bronn/Any Dayne wielding "Dawn."

Khal Drogo/Ned Stark

Strong Belwas

Victarion Greyjoy/Hotah

You seemed to have forgotten Daeron Blackfyre and Aemon the Dragonknight. They seem to technically be the "best" two of the Targaryen Era.

Was Aegon I even a good fighter? I thought he just rode his dragon and burnt people

[House Martell]

Well there isn't that much actual evidence showing those guys' abilities either (except for Barristan) :

Jaime : held off the TSK at 15, saved Lord Crakehall from Big Belly Ben around the same time, knighted by Dayne as a result, wins the Battle of the Golden Tooth against Piper and Vance, the Battle of Riverrun against Edmure, loses the Whispering Wood but kills at least 3 men (all heirs of great northern houses) before being caught, kills 2 and injures 1 severely during his escape attempt from Riverrun, loses to Brienne (though he has been chained hand and foot in a dungeon for 6 months before, was not fed well, has to use a longsword with both hands because they are chained together and she is wearing armour when he is not).

Jaime has more first-hand evidence that the others you've mentioned (except Barristan again).

You keep citing "holding off TSK", so. Dayne actually defeated him and Selmy was there as well to help out, he didn't defeat him in single combat, you're giving him credit for not getting killed. And what great knights did he slay in "The battle of the Golden Tooth" or "Whispering woods", what great deed does he perform in either battle to to warrant being considered a top 5 knight?

-Robert defeating Rhaegar is an actual fight we know about, 1 on 1, two great warriors, Robert wins, point Baratheon

-Dayne actually defeated TSK

-Selmy is the man

-Sandor helmet less thwarts Gregor and defeats Beric

-Oberyn does take down Gregor and could have easily killed him if he had chose to

-Bronn defeats knights, mountain men, excels in battles

Who does jamie defeat 1 on 1, or what great battle does he win (not counting the Stark 3rd string, or getting captured)

[Evamitchelle]

You keep citing "holding off TSK", so. Dayne actually defeated him and Selmy was there as well to help out, he didn't defeat him in single combat, you're giving him credit for not getting killed. And what great knights did he slay in "The battle of the Golden Tooth" or "Whispering woods", what great deed does he perform in either battle to to warrant being considered a top 5 knight?

I keep citing it because Jaime remembers it a lot too. And it was a single combat, it's not like they were going at it 3 to 1 against TSK. The way it's said it seems like it was a general battle and at one point during that battle Jaime faced TSK, but their fight was interrupted by Dayne who killed him. Merret Frey was also alongside Dayne and Selmy and the great knights of the KG, but he still received a massive head injury that left him permanently crippled and prevented him from earning a knighthood. Being near Dayne and Selmy doesn't immediately make you a better fighter, and they weren't glued to Jaime either. As Lord Crakehall's squire he was most likely in his and his squires' company rather than in the KG members'.

-Robert defeating Rhaegar is an actual fight we know about, 1 on 1, two great warriors, Robert wins, point Baratheon

-Dayne actually defeated TSK

That's only one duel for the both of them. Hardly overwhelming first-hand information.

-Selmy is the man

No argument here.

-Sandor helmet less thwarts Gregor and defeats Beric

You won't take Jaime holding off TSK as an appropriate demonstration of his skill yet you consider the draw between Gregor and Sandor irrefutable proof of the Hound's skill ? Just because he didn't have a helmet on ? And I don't recall Beric being considered as one of the best fighters of his time : Thoros beat him in the tourney for example. Also, I'm not sure I'd consider someone who managed to die 7 times in 2 years all that great.

-Oberyn does take down Gregor and could have easily killed him if he had chose to

He still died. I don't think it was his choice to die, so he couldn't have "easily killed Gregor if he had chose" to. Without the poison Gregor would still be alive and Oberyn dead.

-Bronn defeats knights, mountain men, excels in battles

How is Bronn's track record any different than Jaime's ? Was Vardis Egen particularly famous for his skill at arms ? Did he fight anyone of renown during the Blackwater or the Battle of the Camps ? I don't see how you can admit Bronn's superlative skill based on these facts and not Jaime's. In fact doesn't Tyrion, who's seen both men fight a lot, consider Jaime a better fighter than Bronn ?

No, besides TSK and Brienne Jaime hasn't fought any great knights in 1-on-1 duels that we know of, but that's probably because of a lack of opportunity I'd say. Barristan, Dayne etc. lived during a very chaotic time period : the War of the Ninepenny Kings, Defiance of Duskendale etc. Jaime on the other hand was pretty much barred from fighting during the Rebellion, so from ages 15-18 approximately. Then there's peace for 8 years, the Greyjoy Rebellion (in which Jaime participated I think, but we don't know of any personal fights here besides Stannis-Victarion at sea and Jorah/Thoros being the first on the battlements), then peace for another 7 years, War of the Five Kings. And during the books Jaime isn't very present until Book 3, where his hand is cut off. So that's not a lot of opportunity to fight real one-on-one battles against great knights after the Rebellion (who are the great knights in the Riverlands anyway ? Apart from the Blackfish ?). Still, I'd consider his fight with Brienne a good indication of his excellent skill.

But I'd say the Battle of Riverrun was a pretty good victory. It was pretty evenly matched in terms of numbers since Jaime had 15,000 before the Golden Tooth, Edmure 16,000. Yet Jaime won "an easy victory", captured Edmure and many of his knights and routed the rest of the army. Before the Starks intervened Jaime had pretty much won the war in the Riverlands.