264 replies to this topic

[Ser Tom Tarly]

James Arryn, on 29 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Is Strong even mortal anymore?

I would think he is mortal but probably very hard to kill, you never know though.

[TheSpottedCat]

I think, given that Cersei is being judged by the Faith, the champion facing Ser Robert Strong will either belong to the Faith (one of their newly-formed troops), or will be a volunteer fighting on behalf of the Faith. Lancel is one of the Warrior's Sons and he is one of Cersei's accusers (he confessed to being her lover), so he's a possibility, but I think the new High Septon is much too clever to let Lancel fight a man twice his size and hope he will win. So, either another champion will be found among the Warrior's Sons, or the Faith could choose a volunteer. If the Hound is indeed alive and he is indeed living amongst the silent monks that Brienne, Pod and Septon Meribald visited, then it makes some sense that he might be the one to volunteer. And it would be somewhat poetic to have a final battle to-the-death between the Clegane brothers. But, still, these are only guesses and possibilities.

[Patchface12]

If Sandor is too messed up, perhaps the Elder Brother will face Strong to help Sandor move on with his life. Maybe Sandor will live on after this duel is over and be important to later events.

Edited by Patchface12, 29 April 2012 - 03:04 PM.

[Lummel]

The idea that the elder brother would release Sandor to try and kill his own brother when the elder brother was particularly horrified by Sandor's hatred of Gregor seems strange to me, of course word might not get out that lots of people suspect that Ser Robert Strong is Gregorstein...

On the other hand Cersei would be judged to loose the trial if Gregorstein was unmasked and revealed to be a blasphemous, sorcerous creation based on Gregor, assumuning that he doesn't run amok like the Golem or that the trial ever gets to take place.

Afterall Cersei might be best advised to try and make use of teh confusion following on from the murders of kevan and pycelle to flee with King Tommen to the relative safety  of casterly rock.

[GreenHand]

I agree with the majority that it is likely to be Lancel, since he will want it badly and request it with fervour. But the new commander of the Faith Militant's Warrior's Sons - Theodan Wells - is equally as likely. Theodan oversaw Cersei's walk of shame. He has a pragmatic eye (sped up the walk thinking the crowd but break into rancor) and an ardent devotion to the Faith/Warrior's Sons (he was one of the first to join).

Lancel will do it because there is more dramatic material that comes into effect. Unless GRRM wants to develop Theodan as a character.

Either way it will a member of the Faith because no-one outside the Faith is religiously fervent enough to take on so suicidal a mission, and no-one outside the Faith would likely be given access to what I suggest below.

I think the twist will be this...

1]
Cersei saw the pathetic remanents of her Kingsguard (Meryn Trant & Boros Blount) [Loras on Dragonstone, Balon in Dorne, Jaime handless & MIA in Riverlands, Osmund in Jail)... so she pins all her hopes on a new Kingsguard ala Qyburn. She thinks she has a combat victory in the bag because Robert Strong is inhuman with inhuman armour and murderous reach cannot lose or be killed by an ordinary blade no matter how skillfully wielded. But I think this move plays right into the hands of the Faith!

2]
I seem to recall a reference that the Warrior's Sons before Jaehaerys the Concilliator (~260 years ago) also hunted down abominations in the eyes of the Faith. [I can't find a quote, could someone prove to me I'm not dreaming of ASOIAF...thanks]. I think this is what they DO. they specialize in hunting down unnatural things in the night. I suspect that while the less demanding tasks are taken care of by the Stars - the Poor Fellows - the elite force that was the Warriors Sons performed more specialized quests.

3]
Merely re-forming the ancient orders, rather than a non-specific Faith Militant, harkens back to the days before Targeryens. We have seen all manner of magical artifacts appear suddenly in ASOIAF. Dragon eggs, Dragon horns, Dragonglass dagger, Dragonglass candles, Weirwood paste, etc. I think the Faith still has records and perhaps even artifacts from that time in Oldtown (maybe even brought to the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing). The Faith has had some learned members interested in such things. Septon Barth wrote extensively on Dragons.

I think Cersei and Qyburn will be horribly surprised to find that the "sure-lose" wheedling little fanatic Lancel will be wielding a strange sword or wearing a strange helm.

It was said that the Warrior's Sons of old wielded swords with crystal in their pommels. Maybe this was not just symbolic but functional in some way. Is there any indication anywhere in the books how a crystal might have power of influence matters??

4]
So far two of the other major Faiths have shown some kind of supernatural power/magic in their tradition. The Faith of the Seven have been remarkably devoid of the that. The Andals have always been (traditionally) religious warriors. Knights are annointed and avowed before the Seven. Andal Warriors would carve the seven-pointed star into the chests. The Warrior's Sons didn't just worship but DID something. As they actualizing branch of the structure of the Faith perhaps it is they that evoked hidden power in the name of the Faith (even if it is actually magick rather than the agency of the Seven themselves). I suspect we will see a manifesting version of the Power of the Faith of the Seven in the form of something "anti-abomination". The Father wants to protect his children and his order, after all.

[ZeDisDeaD]

i wouldn't rule Sandor out so quickly because he is "healed" or became godly person.. the elder brother is his mentor for now and he isn't kinda person who offers his other cheek.. from  AFFC, about the knight who stayed in his castle when his people in Saltpans slaughtered:


“Ser Quincy is an old man,” said Septon Meribald gently. “His sons and good-sons are far away or dead, his grandsons are still boys, and he has two daughters. What could he have done, one man against so many?”
He could have tried, Brienne thought. He could have died. Old or young, a true knight is sworn to protect those who are weaker than himself, or die in the attempt.
“True words, and wise,” the Elder Brother said to Septon Meribald. “When you cross to Saltpans, no doubt Ser Quincy will ask you for forgiveness. I am glad that you are here to give it. I could not.”

Stone Heart could give Brienne one last suicide mission for the one she failed and send her to stand against Strong. But i don't think new High Septon would let a woman fight for Faith.


Jamie Lannister.. nah.. maybe to find his honor, but i dont think so. But that would be sweet to watch that fight through Cersei's eyes.

Not Loras Tyrell, surely because he is wounded.. even if he wasn't that would be ridicilous to Kingsguard fighting against royal family, or even put his life in danger to kill cersei when his grandma can do it with a simple poison.

Lem with Hound helmet.. maybe.. worth a consideration..

too much choises...

[GreenHand]

Hi the quote regarding the true nature the Warrior's Sons, that knightly order of the newly reformed Faith Militant from near the end of ASOS:

A Storm of Swords, Cersei said:

Cersei explained to her. “The Warrior’s Sons were an order of knights who gave up
their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. The Poor
Fellows . . . they were humbler, though far more numerous. Begging brothers of a sort,
though they carried axes instead of bowls. They wandered the roads, escorting
travelers from sept to sept and town to town. Their badge was the seven-pointed star,
red on white, so the smallfolk named them Stars. The Warrior’s Sons wore rainbow
cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the
pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics,
sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all
agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith.”

Edited by GreenHand, 01 May 2012 - 03:55 AM.

[Lummel]

GreenHand, on 01 May 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

Hi the quote regarding the true nature the Warrior's Sons, that knightly order of the newly reformed Faith Militant from near the end of ASOS:

That's in AFFC not ASOS if anybody is going looking for it

[Storms End]

Whoever it is, they best have a grave already dug out.

[jblair]

The Faith is a true player. They may be driven by religious beliefs, but they have also made some extremely practical moves to further their new-found power. However, losing this trial would be a disaster for them. Reinvigorated Cersei would do everything she could to destroy them. Since trials are the embodiment of the gods' wishes, it could even be seen as a blow against the idea that the Faith are the chosen of the Seven.

So far, the Faith has played it way too cool  to risk everything based on the youthful zeal of a 'warrior' of no reknown. They know Cersei isn't going to be picking a chump for her champion, and they will not be picking Lancel for theirs. Not sure who it will be, but not him.

Also, if RS wins and his inhuman nature is revealed during the battle that would actually be *worse* for the Faith, as it implies that Qyburn's dark necromancy is more powerful than the Seven and that their power is waning in Westeros. They are already facing assaults from Thoros/Melisandre's burgeoning hold. They need to show some serious magic, and fast. Maybe the champion will have one of the swords we've heard of but not seen so far.

edit: crackpot - Darkstar (or Edric) with Dawn. Dorne gets their man after all.

Edited by jblair, 01 May 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[houseHB]

Didn't George RR Martin say that Bronn would appear again sometime in the future? He has reason to want Cersei dead since she sent people to kill him.

[The Sunset King]

jblair, on 01 May 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Also, if RS wins and his inhuman nature is revealed during the battle that would actually be *worse* for the Faith, as it implies that Qyburn's dark necromancy is more powerful than the Seven and that their power is waning in Westeros. They are already facing assaults from Thoros/Melisandre's burgeoning hold. They need to show some serious magic, and fast. Maybe the champion will have one of the swords we've heard of but not seen so far.

How it would go for the Faith would depend on several factors.  It would indeed seem to be a problem if Qyburn's necromancy proved difficult for the Faith to overcome, however the vast majority of the population will view the use of such magic as totally illegal, vile, and absolute proof that Cersei is guilty and has committed extensive perjury.  If the true natue of RS was exposed during the trial combat, it would transform the trial into an all out war between the Faith and Qyburn-Cersei. Whether the Faith would then be able to address the RS problem would determine much of the effect on their reputation.  Given that they did not know that RS was a magically reanimated corpse prior to the fight, they likely would be given some leeway in having  champion die against such a foe.  The High Septon would probably take the opportunity to purge King's Landing of political opponents, supposed heretics, and those believed to be engaging in or assisting blasphemous practices.  How the Tyrells react would affect which political moves would make the most sense.  Tommen, if still alive at that point, would definitely be considered deposed by the Faith.

I agree that the threat posed to the Faith by Melisandre/Thoros/BWB/others is growing.

Edited by The Sunset King, 16 May 2012 - 02:47 PM.

[LuisDantas]

houseHB, on 01 May 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Didn't George RR Martin say that Bronn would appear again sometime in the future? He has reason to want Cersei dead since she sent people to kill him.

That would be sweet.  Bronn has shown remarkable confidence that he could defeat Gregor, given enough motivation.  And he may well believe (as do I) that unGregor is not quite as dangerous as plain vanilla Gregor.

[jlk7e]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 07 January 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

The reasons I do not believe it will be Sandor: no one knows that RS is UnGregor (we don't even know), so Sandor does not know.  There may be suspicions among the people who have seen RS, but I don't feel like suspicion and gossip would be enough to send Sandor trekking across the kingdom on a potential suicide mission.

I agree with most of your post, but not this part.  Reread Kevan's epilogue to A Dance with Dragons - Kevan knows exactly who and what "Robert Strong" is, and he believes that Mace must know as well.  Probably many others suspect it as well.

Edited by jlk7e, 16 May 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[Tarandor]

This seems to be set right down the middle.

I feel like it won't be Sandor...or perhaps I'm saying I really hope it won't be Sandor--the outcome regardless seems dire to both parties involved. If you hadn't guessed, he's my favorite character...

Even if RS really IS Gregor, who is to say he even has any memories, or even knows he has a brother, or what the hell is even under that helm--it wouldn't be worth Sandor risking his life to fight some monster/fighting machine that has the likeness of his brother. He'd be trying to kill something that is technically, well, seemingly already dead, something with probably no feeling at all, how much joy could that bring?

I don't know--It's hard to say because we really don't know a whole lot about RS yet, but if that IS the face off, that will be the hardest chapter to read, I'll be holding my breath for sure.


Edit: Spelling

Edited by Tarandor, 16 May 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[Jolene Brown]

Wasn't Sandor "half-crippled" on the Quiet Isle?  I don't think he was just injured, the impression I got was that he had been permanently lamed in that leg with the infected wound.  I want him to turn up again, but I don't know that he's in any shape to fight the resurrected necromantic corpse of his monstrous brother just yet, or potentially ever.  He has some other role to play, I think.

[ThePickler]

I have a feeling that it will be Jaime. I suspect that he will return from Lady Stoneheart alive but changed, much like Brienne. He will beat Frankengregor and complete the "valonqar" prophecy.

[ledlevee]

ThePickler, on 16 May 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

I have a feeling that it will be Jaime. I suspect that he will return from Lady Stoneheart alive but changed, much like Brienne. He will beat Frankengregor and complete the "valonqar" prophecy.

I think this is a great idea.  Or maybe it will be Tyrion returned from Essos who will fight Ungregor (I'm joking, but that would be quite a sight to see).  Jamie being the valonqar has always seemed more likely to me than Tyrion, since Tyrion's just too obvious.  Another Dark Horse idea would be Brienne.  She could probably give Gregor a run for his money.  That would be a cool fight to see, two giants against one another.  The only possible problem I see with either Jamie or Brienne is the timing.  They're pretty far away and isn't the trial supposed to happen fairly soon?

Elaboration: So Jamie, since he can't fight well with one hand, would bring Brienne to King's Landing and find a way to put her up against Robert Strong, in case anyone was wondering why Brienne would do this.  Perhaps they'd be sent there by Cat, who upon getting word of the trial by combat, sends them to King's Landing to see that Cersei pays for her sins, most notably her sins against Ned.

Edited by ledlevee, 18 May 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Jon Umber (Greatjon) anyone? We know he is not dead.

[Ditocorto]

It has to be Lancel, not only he has all the motivations to volunteer (redemption for his part on Robert's assassination) but I think the Church's champion has to be one of the church's knights (I don't remember their name now), remember that Lancel&co. really believe that duels are won by whoever has the favor of the gods