264 replies to this topic

[jarl the climber]

I think that only weakness that Strong would have would be fire or a valyrian blade.If somebody started cutting him up and he didn't die or bleed and the faith had reason to suspect that he was a product of necromancy,it could be a reason for new charges against Cersei

[The Sunset King]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 07 January 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

IMO Bronn is out, because he already refused to take on Gregor Clegane.  He has his castle and his somewhat dubious title; there is nothing that the Faith could/will offer him that would make him risk everything.

Maybe I am oversimplifying, but to me, figuring out who it will be is fairly simple.  In order to be willing to face Robert Strong, a combatant will have to meet one of two criteria:

1.  They will have to believe they have some measure of a chance at defeating him straight-out; or
2.  They have to be religious enough (and sure enough of Cersei's guilt) to believe that the gods will grant them victory despite Strong's size and unknown, but presumably more than competant, fighting prowess.

Yes, it seems that a great many potential combatants will hesitate to take on a gargantuan, unknown knight that has never been seen in action yet and seems suspiciously dangerous.  Furthermore, the Faith Militant likely has enough potential contendors to choose from so that it will not have to resort to someone outside its purview.  It seems questionable whether any Tyrell will want to risk fighting the product of Qyburn's Area 51, even though they quite dislike Cersei.  It would be a hazardous gamble and the likely result would be the deposing of Tommen and their own forced withdrawal from power (rather than allowing Margaery to rule, the High Septon might look to Aegon to fill the void).  They will likely look for some other method of eliminating the Cersei threat.

Lancel is a strong possibility for who will fight the unGregor.  If not him, some other person associated with the Faith Militant is likely.  Sandor Clegane might at some point encounter this foe however it is unlikely to that the trial will be the instance where it might happen.  He also will need to recover sufficiently from his limp in order to fight effectively.  Cersei is irrecovably screwed but she will probably end up buying time and causing more damage before her final collapse.  The Faith Militant will most likely still consider her guilty and try to continue to work against her.  If they actually end up seeing what Cersei's "champion" is, there is no doubt that they will consider Cersei, her warrior, and the trail outcomes to be obscene abominations, affronts to the natural order, and completely illegitimate.  The sparrows would instantaneously rise up against they consider to be the Cersei-Qyburn nightmare and preach a call to arms against the government.  It may be that King's Landing will become an even more bloodsoaked battlefield than would often be expected.  There could become a chaotic fight between the Faith Militant, the Tyrells, the Lannisters, and a lunatic Cersei.  If left to their own devices, the Tyrells would stand a good chance of seizing control but this would present an outstanding opening for Aegon to seize King's Landing.  Throw in Varys exploiting the situation and the Sand Snakes extracting retribution and it is very easy to see how the Lannister presence in King's Landing will crumble.  It seems mainly to be a question of what kind of blaze Cersei will go out in and whether how much the rest of the Lannisters will risk trying to defend Tommen's reign.

Qyburn's creation will definitely be dealt with at some point but this thing sounds like it will be very hard to "kill."

Edited by The Sunset King, 07 January 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[Ser Vaunt]

BlackWaterSurvivor, on 07 January 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Titan, i agree that RS is not unbeatable, gregor certainly wasnt, oberyn showed that! its just tactical.

Oberyn used poison, which an UnGregor may not be subject to, among other things. Whether or not he's Gregor, he doesn't eat, drink, or visit the privy (unless he's also a ninja), so he's obviously something more than human. I really doubt he'll be beaten in formal single combat.

[jarl the climber]

BlackWaterSurvivor, on 07 January 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

surely if you choose trial by 7 and lose you dont get to have a trial by combat too? i mean what would be the point? as i understood the process you choose how you want to be tried and face the consequences. surely you cant lose and then say 'uhh, actually ive changed my mind...'



i hope your right, i dont like the hound at all. i actually think he is as bad as his brother and the one redeeming part of him is his new found monkhood!

Titan, i agree that RS is not unbeatable, gregor certainly wasnt, oberyn showed that! its just tactical.

I was thinking that if the trial was going against her she could resort to a trial by battle like Tyrion did
all though the faith might not allow her to do that but there is precedence.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

jarl the climber, on 07 January 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

I was thinking that if the trial was going against her she could resort to a trial by battle like Tyrion did
all though the faith might not allow her to do that but there is precedence.

to what precedence do you refer, tyrion chose trial by combat twice. he didnt ever begin trial by 7, at least to my knowledge he didnt.

Edited by BlackWaterSurvivor, 07 January 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Villemo]

huh, and it's interesting, I have the impression that nobody wants victory of ser Robert Strong (means: Cersei's victory) in this trial. Or maybe I'm wrong?

[littlespider]

I'm pretty convinced it will be Lancel. As LadyoftheNorth said so well above, Lancel is perfectly positioned to emerge as RS's opponent. The other thing behind this is that it would be in character for Lancel, who is really into self-punishment for his sins. What better self-flagellation than going up against an 8 foot monster like Robert Strong? Lancel will be chewed up and spat out, Cersei will be found innocent, and she'll return to power. I think there are many signs in DwD that point to this.

As for Sandor: the monks on the QI do not strike me as remotely similar to the Faith Militant. They're religious, sure, but not anything like the current fanatical high septon. And while I'm in the camp of Sandor's genuine conversion, I don't anticipate that this is a guy who will go from an attitude of "what gods?" to an ultra-militant attitude.

[Serie]

Villemo, on 07 January 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

huh, and it's interesting, I have the impression that nobody wants victory of ser Robert Strong (means: Cersei's victory) in this trial. Or maybe I'm wrong?

I have no prob with Cersei winning but not with ser Robert (if ser Robert turns out to be Gregor both head+body). Actually it would be interesting if Cercei won and her champion was named Robert...

so if all body parts do belong to Gregor Clegane and he is vulnerable to fire, then Sandor must have the honour. But I dont think its likely to happen.

littlespider, on 07 January 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

I'm pretty convinced it will be Lancel. As LadyoftheNorth said so well above, Lancel is perfectly positioned to emerge as RS's opponent. The other thing behind this is that it would be in character for Lancel, who is really into self-punishment for his sins. What better self-flagellation than going up against an 8 foot monster like Robert Strong? Lancel will be chewed up and spat out, Cersei will be found innocent, and she'll return to power. I think there are many signs in DwD that point to this.

that's a scenario I like

Edited by Serie, 07 January 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

littlespider, on 07 January 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

I'm pretty convinced it will be Lancel. As LadyoftheNorth said so well above, Lancel is perfectly positioned to emerge as RS's opponent. The other thing behind this is that it would be in character for Lancel, who is really into self-punishment for his sins. What better self-flagellation than going up against an 8 foot monster like Robert Strong? Lancel will be chewed up and spat out, Cersei will be found innocent, and she'll return to power. I think there are many signs in DwD that point to this.

As for Sandor: the monks on the QI do not strike me as remotely similar to the Faith Militant. They're religious, sure, but not anything like the current fanatical high septon. And while I'm in the camp of Sandor's genuine conversion, I don't anticipate that this is a guy who will go from an attitude of "what gods?" to an ultra-militant attitude.

i agree with the reasoning that it may well be lancel, but i would be a little surprised as surely the faith would want a champion they felt could win the fight given that lancel is so young and not known for his prowess in battle. if i was HS i certainly wouldnt pick the weasely little cousin fucker!

[littlespider]

BlackWaterSurvivor, on 07 January 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

i agree with the reasoning that it may well be lancel, but i would be a little surprised as surely the faith would want a champion they felt could win the fight given that lancel is so young and not known for his prowess in battle. if i was HS i certainly wouldnt pick the weasely little cousin fucker!

Heh, nice nickname. Yeah, the practical reasoning really doesn't make sense, though I can sort of see the HS betting on divine power getting behind Lancel's weapon since he's in the right here (that was the original reasoning behind trial by combat). I'm really fascinated to see how all of this plays out, regardless who goes up against RS.

Poor Lancel. If only he knew that the secret to defeating Greg 2.0 was getting the controller away from Qyburn!

[The Sunset King]

The HS probably wouldn't be keen on using Lancel but Lancel may force himself as their representative and talk them into allowing him to fight on their behalf.  It ultimately won't matter all that much who they send if it is someone that is part of their military orders and the challenger is killed.  Even a very strong and skilled fighter will have serious problems pentrating that ultra-armor and dealing with unGregor's strength/presumably unlimited stamina.    

It looks likely that whoever faces this opponent will die but the animosity that the religious orders have toward Cersei, as well as their belief that she has engaged in usurpation of the throne, will probably remain.  Using UnGregor is actually a sort of risky plan; it alleviates some threats will creating others.  He makes it extremely likely that Cersei will be aquitted but the same could be achieved with the help of another effective fighter, albeit with no certainty of success.  However, if anyone associated with the sparrows actually opens the helmet and sees "nothing but darkness and black blood" or a clearly undead face, there will be a serious problem for Cersei/Qyburn.  Using of a necromantic champion would be deemed a blasphemous and fradulent attempt to manipulate the outcome of the battle.  A great many of the potential scenarios involving the Faith Militant vs Cersei would be hilarious.  

I suspect that the political consequences are going to end up being much greater than Qyburn anticipated or cared about.  Nothing can save the Tyrell-Lannister "alliance" anymore.  The question is how bloodly will its final dissolution be, what role will the sparrows play, and how will other claimants to the throne exploit this?  This all seems to be a fantastic set of occurrences for Aegon.  However, the present High Septon and his military orders sound like they basically want to co-rule.  It is going to be hard for any monarch to work with them in the long term.  

This trial would make one of the more interesting possible prologues for the next book.

Edited by The Sunset King, 07 January 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

littlespider, on 07 January 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Heh, nice nickname. Yeah, the practical reasoning really doesn't make sense, though I can sort of see the HS betting on divine power getting behind Lancel's weapon since he's in the right here (that was the original reasoning behind trial by combat). I'm really fascinated to see how all of this plays out, regardless who goes up against RS.

Poor Lancel. If only he knew that the secret to defeating Greg 2.0 was getting the controller away from Qyburn!

i am not sure the HS would rely on divine intervention. i get the impression that like the real world the enlightened people dont really pay much heed to the power of gods, at least the 7 anyway. otherwise why would cersei pick a trial by combat knowing that by rights the gods would strike down her champion as she is guilty. people must realise that faith alone is not enough to win a fight. or else faith could have samwell tarly as their champion and still win.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

one question, if qyburn could reanimate gregor why couldnt he reattach jaimes hand? i think jaime was wearing is around his neck when he got to harrenhal so it was still in his possession.

Edited by BlackWaterSurvivor, 07 January 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Villemo]

BlackWaterSurvivor, on 07 January 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

one question, if qyburn could reanimate gregor why couldnt he reattach jaimes hand? i think jaime was wearing is around his neck when he got to harrenhal so it was still in his possession.

yea, but Gregor was hmmmm... the fresh meat, and Jaime's hand was rotten. Degree of destruction the material, it's all.

[Carey Snow]

Villemo, on 07 January 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

huh, and it's interesting, I have the impression that nobody wants victory of ser Robert Strong (means: Cersei's victory) in this trial. Or maybe I'm wrong?

I do because it will build up Robert Strong's reputation and buy Cersei more time. I want a good story and there has to be some build up. I want Robert Strong to look unbeatable and a pure monster before somebody is able to take him down. Cersei needs to suffer more before the "Younger prettier Queen" comes along.

[Lady Greeneyes]

I think it has to be someone from the faith or the faith has to appoint their champion.

[salt]

Obara Sand against Zombie Mountain?  Unless you're trying to make another pot of Dornish soup, that's not going to end well.

[jarl the climber]

BlackWaterSurvivor, on 07 January 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

to what precedence do you refer, tyrion chose trial by combat twice. he didnt ever begin trial by 7, at least to my knowledge he didnt.

He was given a trial by Tywwin,Oberyn,Mace, after Shaes testimony he appealed to the gods and trial by battle because he felt he would be found guilty and did not get a fair trial. Whether Margery would have that same right during a trial by 7 is unknown but her Father is Hand and her husband is the king the Faith probaly wouldn't want it to be said she didn't have every oppurtunity to prove her innocence and I believe that as the queen she would have to use a kingsguard knight,she would have to ask the Faith to put aside the marriage with Tommen(never consumated) if Ser Loras can't go, and maybe that will be want the Sand Snakes want, they will believe Ser Robert Strong is really Ser Gregor and will want kill him.Who they have in mind to fight I can't say.

Edited by jarl the climber, 07 January 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[BlackWaterSurvivor]

jarl the climber, on 07 January 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

He was given a trial by Tywwin,Oberyn,Mace, after Shaes testimony he appealed to the gods and trial by battle because he felt he would be found guilty and did not get a fair trial. Whether Margery would have that same right during a trial by 7 is unknown but her Father is Hand and her husband is the king the Faith probaly wouldn't want it to be said she didn't have every oppurtunity to prove her innocence and I believe that as the queen she would have to use a kingsguard knight,she would have to ask the Faith to put aside the marriage with Tommen(never consumated) if Ser Loras can't go, and maybe that will be want the Sand Snakes want, they will believe it is Gregor .Who they have in mind to fight him I can't say.

i see what you mean, but that wasnt a trial by 7. a trial by 7 is a 7 a-side fight. as in the accuser and the accused pick 7 champions to fight eachother in combat. if the accused is not able to muster 7 champions then that is seen as a sign by  the gods that the person is guilty.
just a bit of mixed up terminology i think. what you are referring to is just a trial i think, no gods involved.

[Arkash]

Gregor VS. Varys..... that'd be funny !!

(And I love Varys).