The False Sun- Bakker

[Happy Ent]

Quick question, does reading this story spoil much for The Unholy Consult?

Not having read Consult yet, we cannot really say.

As far as I understand, no plot is spoilt. Instead, a lot of metaphysical background is exposed in this story, background that will also be exposed in Consult. However, if you follow the discussions on this board, most of the things are confirmation of ideas we’ve mulled over quite a lot already; there are no real surprises, nothing we didn’t know or suspect before.

I say: go ahead and read it. I’m more than happy that I did.

[Happy Ent]

As to the looks of the Inchoroi, Aurang’s description is compatible with what we’ve already seen at the end of Warrior-Prophet.

Somebody with basic Photoshop skills should be able to sketch one of them, or draw them in pencil. There are two skulls. The outer one looks like a half-open oyster. Here is a picture: http://static.guim.c.../05/oyster1.jpg . Remove the pearl, of course, and tilt it 90 degrees (“an oyster set on edge”). Of course the whole thing is covered with translucent flesh (that’s what makes it hard to draw... can somebody find a good image of translucent skin on a skull?). This thing also has nostrils and eye sockets filled with white flesh.

The oyster’s inside is probably serrated with teeth, since its jaws are described as “crocodilian”. Look at a Crocodile skull (but the thing opens in the horizontal direction, not he vertical one, because the oyster-skull is set on edge.)

Now, inside this half-open oyster-with-teeth but a normal, humanoid skull, described as “more man-like” and “almost human”.

[Happy Ent]

Some timeline stuff (can’t access the Wikia wiki right now, so why not edit it here for a while…)

1119. Shaeönanra and Aurang defeat Titirga, grandmaster of the Sohonc.

Characters:

Emilidis, called the Artisan, Nonman Siqu and founder of the school of Contrivers, the Mihtrulic

Gin’yursis, Nonman Siqu, founds the Sohonc. In footnote 5 it says (574-668). On the other hand, the Wikia says that Noshainrau, founding Grandmaster of the Gnostic school of Sohonc and author of the Interrogations, the first elaboration of the Gnosis by Men, is born c. 1005, which is compatible with the idea that Nosh found Tit. Either Nosh was not the founding grandmaster, or the Sohonc is much younger than the Mangaëcca. I’m prepared to discount the Wikia timeline (could somebody check TTT?).

Misariccas and Runidil, Nonmen Ishroi warriors known for their valour, go bananas when exposed to the Inverse Flame

Cet’ingira, Nonman Siqu, sent by Nil’Giccas to investigate the Ark, has seen the Inverse Flame.

—

Here’s what I think

574-688: Gin’yoursis founds the Sohonc

684 - The Gnostic school of Mangaecca is founded by Sos-Praniura (the greatest student of Gin’yursis)

777 Cit’ingira, called Mekertrig, reveals the Ark to the Mangaëcca (he keeps doing this for centuries)

c. 1005 - Noshainrau the White, founding Grandmaster of the Gnostic school of Sohonc and author of theInterrogations, the first elaboration of the Gnosis by Men, is born

before 1072: Titirga, grandmaster of the Sohonc, is born

1072 - Noshainrau the White, founding Grandmaster of Sohonc, dies at age 67.

before 1119 Cet’ingira and Shaeönanra break the barrier of the Ark

1119 Titirga, grandmaster of the Sohonc, dies

1123 - Shaeönanra, Grandvizier of the Mangaecca, claims to have rediscovered a means of saving the souls of those damned by sorcery. Mangaecca was promptly outlawed for impiety. Mangaecca abandon Sauglish and flee to Golgotterath

Interesting: in 750, our friend Mekki steals the Heron spear and “delivers” it to Golgotterath. I speculate that around that time, he must have become frustrated with his own damnation and wants to break down the Barriers. He pummels them for a few centuries with whatever sorcery he can come up with. Then he steals the laser with the goal to shoot the Barrier. It doesn’t work. Then he contacts the Mangaëcca and show the Ark to the grandmaster (whose name we don’t know). This grandmaster, and those who follow (for two hundred years) try to overcome the Barriers with Mekki. Finally, Shae figures it out, quite quickly actually, and Mekki finally gets into the Ark.

[Antonius Pius]

As far as I understand, no plot is spoilt. Instead, a lot of metaphysical background is exposed in this story, background that will also be exposed in Consult. However, if you follow the discussions on this board, most of the things are confirmation of ideas we’ve mulled over quite a lot already; there are no real surprises, nothing we didn’t know or suspect before.

I say: go ahead and read it. I’m more than happy that I did.

Thanks. I guess I'll have something to do on my lunch-break...

[Armitage]

I think Titirga has grasped the fundamentals of what the Psukhe use, but he's not Psukhari. Psukhari refers specifically to the Cishaurim's method of magic.

Fair enough; your use of Psukhe matches up better with Scott's own explanation, in that it was Fane and his followers who named it.

:

Prior to Fane, the Psukhe as an arcane art was unknown, though there are legendary hints and mythic innuendos of certain sightless individuals harnessing inexplicable powers in moments of extraordinary anguish.

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

[Happy Ent]

… and we still haven’t seen Aurax, have we? I wonder what’s up with that.

[generic]

The thresholds they are holy no more

- Wraith in the Mountain

They call it the Threshold, a narrow phalange of iron set high upon the Upright Horn, the hanging porch of the Barricades, which the Ishroi of old had raised about the uppermost sanctum of their wicked foe.

So that was what it was talking about.

Also after reading about Titirga I feel confirmed in my theory that there is a plan for little Kel to learn the Psukhe. I wouldn't be suprised by Esmenet handing him over to Faynal as a hostage.

[Madness]

Some things to add, though, good conversation, guys. Fantastic story on Bakker's part yet it only whets my appetite for more.

- I feel the Diurnal works like a sorcerous satellite. Titirga simply walks in a large pocket of daylight, a sun hanging from his hand. I figured it for a handle like a tradition lantern but a curved mirror on the end aimed at the sky. Probably with the cursive of sorcerous inscriptions.

- Emilidis, the Artisan, is assumptively still alive and functioning with the Mihtrulic during the tale of the False Sun, as he'd personally given Titirga the Diurnal. We can only imagine the sorcerous artifacts and objects that yet inhabit Earwa, to add their particular flavour to this story.

- The Barricades are the Glamours raised around Min-Uroikas, which the Nonman Quya built in long-ago antiquity when the Nonman finished their twenty year war through the Ark. I think we'd all gathered this. What's interesting to me is how Glamours and sorcerous objects, like Kellhus' brazier, are connected and the mechanisms of how they function?

- Nonmen Siqu created the ancient Gnostic Schools, not Men. Picked apt and deserving humans from among the populace. Perhaps, the dates in the texts are misleading because TTT's Appendix represents Man's understanding around the end of the Prince of Nothing's arc in Earwa. The ideas that founded those institutions are Nonmen ideas. I wonder if the Nonman ever tried their hands at conceptual architecture as a tactic in the War, like the Inchoroi with the Tusk.

- An ultimately important idea to take from the False Sun to me is Titirga. What does it mean, truly, that "He was certainly the most powerful Insinger ever born. And if what Cet’ingira said was true, the most powerful, period. No living Quya had the purity of his Recitations." What can Kellhus, but even mundane sorcerers, truly become? What's the limit of their power?

Also, I'd have to favor either Tears of Lys' interpretation or Ent's and whoever suggested that the Inverse Fire is a lie. It could simply be that the Inchoroi can pull the veil on Reality and damnation is truly so horrible that any cost is worth to happily avoid it. Or it could be that the Inchoroi watched really fucked up porn and had some crazy snuff films lying around.

I'm willing to bet that our perspectival lens of Shaeönanra's understanding is skewed.

Great stuff. Unholy Consult is going to blow my socks off.

[unJon]

Like the idea that Shae wasn't the most powerful of sorcerers, but rather the most subtle and clever.

I think this story recontextualizes Bakker's comments about the Inchoroi and the Tusk. I had been assuming that the Inchies inserted the "lie" about non-men being false men that were dammed. That leads to a new way of seeing Kel's conversation with the non-man ambassador: the assumption being that the non-man ambassador knows that's a lie and wondering if Kel is 'in on the joke.' BUT, from this story it seems like non-men DO know they are dammed, but they think they found an escape hatch to oblivion by hiding their Voices and worshiping the cracks between the gods. Aurang and Shae seem skeptical of the efficacy of that technique.

So it seems to me that the Inchies added the Truth about non-men to the Tusk. The people in Eanna, being on the other side of the Gates (so presumably no exposure to non-men) wouldn't know one way or the other. The Inchies add it to rev up the Eannanites to attack the non-men, sure, but they didn't lie. Better to motivate with the truth when you can anyway. If that's right, it puts the Kel / non-man ambassador conversation in a different light once again ...

[Kalbear]

One odd bit - nonmen heroes never stop growing. The bigger their accomplishments the bigger they actually become.

[Madness]

Good points, unJon. There was no real convincing argument within the False Sun's text though. Damnation still just comes down to a matter of perspective. If the Inverse Fire isn't simply another deception and the Inchoroi truly believe its prophetic visions (Real interesting, if you look at this through Ent's perspective) then it's an understanding they brought from the Void, that remains Truth throughout Reality.

Thought: Earwa pins the objectivity of it's Universe like the Nail pins the sky. The Prime World like someone said many threads ago.

Btw, is that actually in the story, Kalbear?

Edit: I wonder if Kellhus knows from his own journey Outside of the truth of Inchoroi's Xir’kirimakra? Perhaps he has new truths to tell Shaeönanra.

I think it's funny that the Grandmaster treats Xir’kirimakra like Voldemort.

[jurble]

What I also like about this story is the idea that Oblivion wasn't ever an option. The concept of Oblivion had never really jived with my understanding of the Outside works. Someone would have to be perfectly neutral in sin/deeds to escape either type of Ciphrang - angelic or demonic.

The idea of the Nonman heros never stop growing is pretty cool. Makes Ciogli breaking Wutteat's neck a little more understandable.

[Drowned Crow]

One odd bit - nonmen heroes never stop growing. The bigger their accomplishments the bigger they actually become.

That was a very strange detail. So most nonmen grow to a normal size, but when they do something heroic they start growing again? What happens if they do something unheroic? Do they start shrinking? I'm hoping that there was some misunderstanding here because this does not seem like a good addition to the story.

[Happy Ent]

Wasn't it clear that there are many different Grounds?

Ground is simply olde-speak for Earth or World or Planet.

Voice = Soul

Ground = World

Archideme = Grandmaster

Insinger = Sorcerer

These are just terminological changes that add colour to a story that takes place 3000 years before the the Second Apocalypse. Quite nice.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I forget, where does Kellus talk to a non-man ambassador?

[Happy Ent]

I forget, where does Kellus talk to a non-man ambassador?

WLW, end of X

[jurble]

That was a very strange detail. So most nonmen grow to a normal size, but when they do something heroic they start growing again? What happens if they do something unheroic? Do they start shrinking? I'm hoping that there was some misunderstanding here because this does not seem like a good addition to the story.

Human males' growth plates don't close until age 24. But you're lucky to get another inch between when your growth spurt ends and when the growth plates close. I imagine it's something similar. Nonmen's growth plates never close. High-levels of stress hormones or whatever, their body reacts by increasing growth factor and making them get a tad bigger. Someone like Ciogli who's constantly fighting and doing deeds with reactive stress hormones being released, is also slowly growing bigger and bigger.

The heroism of the deed is probably irrelevant, only the stress matters.

[Spring Bass]

I wonder what makes Earwa special in the Cosmos, to the point where the Inchoroi actually came there on a prophesy after wiping out tons of other ensouled populations down to the Magic Number for the Outside to supposedly be shut off. Is it sorcery? The Inchoroi knew about damnation and presumably prophesy (since Earwa was prophesied), but I don't think they knew about sorcery before arriving on the planet.

Maybe that's what makes Earwa special - the ability to re-write the World with word and thought. Perhaps that was the ultimate key to finishing the No-God and interposing him between the Outside and the World on Earwa, thus shutting out the Heavens for good.

[unJon]

Just thought of something else. Contrast Trin's reaction to being damned to the non-man ambassador's. Trin thinks he can hide his Voice. The non-man ambassador agrees he is dammed. I find this to be huge evidence that the non-men went over to the Consult. It matches very well with Kel's reasoning in TTT about why Moe would eventually join them. It also matches the False Sun story of why Shae joins them and why Trin thinks that's idiotic. More specifically, I think Kel leads the conversation with the non-man to that point specifically to test where their allegiance lay, and the non-man answer practically gives it away to Kel.

[Antonius Pius]

Holy shit, that was a good one. I feel like strangling my little brother.

BUT, from this story it seems like non-men DO know they are dammed, but they think they found an escape hatch to oblivion by hiding their Voices and worshiping the cracks between the gods. Aurang and Shae seem skeptical of the efficacy of that technique.

I figured they already knew, but were damned anyway since they didn't worship the gods. Their disbelief already created unavoidable damnation.

But didn't the humans create the damnation of the Nonmen by outbreeding them and empowering the Hundred Gods? i.e., didn't the humans believing in them make them real?

Another thought: If Shae speaks true and Nil'giccas is the nonman who knows the horrible truth about damnation, could that help to explain why he's wandering as Incariol? Or would that be less likely since he ought to want to join the Consult were he to know the horrible truth?

The Nil'giccas we know is proud. He'll go to hell his way, not bowing and scraping or serving obscenities.

Someone like Ciogli who's constantly fighting and doing deeds with reactive stress hormones being released, is also slowly growing bigger and bigger.

Giving new meaning to his nickname The Mountain.

The Inchoroi knew about damnation and presumably prophesy (since Earwa was prophesied), but I don't think they knew about sorcery before arriving on the planet.

Was it prophesied? Is that in Wutteat's revelations somewhere? I agree that the Inchies didn't know about sorvery.

Maybe that's what makes Earwa special - the ability to re-write the World with word and thought. Perhaps that was the ultimate key to finishing the No-God and interposing him between the Outside and the World on Earwa, thus shutting out the Heavens for good.

I imagined that was exactly the point to help the Inchies avoid damnation.