143 replies to this topic

[Mark Sawyer]

I was wondering how many people live in Westeros and more specifically is each kingdom...the books are always refrencing "the power of highgarden".... all of Dorne.."the vale" ..yada yada...how big are these empires...does anyone know..it really doesnt matter i guess the historian in me wants to know exact numbers like this is a real kindgom with a real war being fought..lol

[Mark Sawyer]

does any one have an idea

[Bright Blue Eyes]

At least fifty times the number of their armies. One to two percent of its inhabitants armed is as much as a rural society can stand before imploding. So:

North >= 300,000
Vale >= 200,000
Riverlands >= 200,000
Westerlands >= 300,000
Reach >= 350,000
Dorne >= 150,000
Stormlands >= 150,000
Iron Islands don't know for naval culture, but they have 25,000+ armed fighters, including at least 10,000 standing army (Iron Fleet)

That's the bare minimum, it's probably ten times as high.

There are some older older threads about the army sizes, one of them named "military roundup after ADWD".

[Apple Martini]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 14 January 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

At least fifty times the number of their armies. One to two percent of its inhabitants armed is as much as a rural society can stand before imploding. So:

North >= 300,000
Vale >= 200,000
Riverlands >= 200,000
Westerlands >= 300,000
Reach >= 350,000
Dorne >= 150,000
Stormlands >= 150,000
Iron Islands don't know for naval culture, but they have 25,000+ armed fighters, including at least 10,000 standing army (Iron Fleet)

That's the bare minimum, it's probably ten times as high.

There are some older older threads about the army sizes, one of them named "military roundup after ADWD".

ETA: Numbers fixed below.

Edited by Apple Martini, 14 January 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[Cosmic Maintenance Man]

(This info comes from the IceandFire wikia)

Total Population of Westeros: 75 million
The population is divided by the provinces as follows (Note: these numbers are estimates):

• The North: 15 million
  
• The Vale: 10 million
  
• The Stormlands: 15 million
  
• The Reach (including Riverlands): 25 million
  
• The Westerlands: 15 million
  
• The Iron Islands: 2 million
  
• Dorne and the southern provinces: 10 million

Other sources state that the population is much less than that (like the poster above me), so I'm not certain.

Edited by Cosmic Maintenance Man, 14 January 2012 - 03:14 AM.

[Revan Baratheon]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 14 January 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

At least fifty times the number of their armies. One to two percent of its inhabitants armed is as much as a rural society can stand before imploding. So:
North >= 300,000
Vale >= 200,000
Riverlands >= 200,000
Westerlands >= 300,000
Reach >= 350,000
Dorne >= 150,000
Stormlands >= 150,000
Iron Islands don't know for naval culture, but
they have 25,000+ armed fighters, including at least 10,000 standing army (Iron Fleet)

That's the bare minimum, it's probably ten times
as high.

There are some older older threads about the army sizes, one of them named "military roundup
after ADWD".

I highly doubt this.If the north even had 1/7th of their entire pop as fighting troops(with a pop of 350k),mors crowfood wont have got "20 green boys" as his troops,and bolton would have atleast 20k men not 5k

Very much doubt westeros could feed so many man..i know KL had 500k men,but that was always an exxageration and during war arent every fighting men supposed to enlist? So armies would be much bigger,the north would then have 60k army not 20k

[Apple Martini]

Cosmic Maintenance Man, on 14 January 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

(This info comes from the IceandFire wikia)

Total Population of Westeros: 75 million
The population is divided by the provinces as follows (Note: these numbers are estimates):

• The North: 15 million
  
• The Vale: 10 million
  
• The Stormlands: 15 million
  
• The Reach (including Riverlands): 25 million
  
• The Westerlands: 15 million
  
• The Iron Islands: 2 million
  
• Dorne and the southern provinces: 10 million

Other sources state that the population is much less than that (like the poster above me), so I'm not certain.

I find this really, really, really, hard to believe, unless it's actually coming from Martin. I know Westeros is supposed to be South America-sized, but this clashes pretty heavily with, say, what we know about army sizes. A population of 15,000,000 should, using the 2% rule, be able to field 300,000 fighters.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Oop, sorry, I multiplied with five instead of fifty
Make that

North >= 3,000,000
Vale >= 2,000,000
Riverlands >= 2,000,000
Westerlands >= 3,000,000
Reach >= 3,500,000
Dorne >= 1,500,000
Stormlands >= 1,500,000

At the very least.

[Evamitchelle]

Cosmic Maintenance Man, on 14 January 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

(This info comes from the IceandFire wikia)

Total Population of Westeros: 75 million
The population is divided by the provinces as follows (Note: these numbers are estimates):

• The North: 15 million
  
• The Vale: 10 million
  
• The Stormlands: 15 million
  
• The Reach (including Riverlands): 25 million
  
• The Westerlands: 15 million
  
• The Iron Islands: 2 million
  
• Dorne and the southern provinces: 10 million

Other sources state that the population is much less than that (like the poster above me), so I'm not certain.

I have trouble believing this as well. King's Landing, the largest city in Westeros, only has about 500,000 inhabitants according to Tyrion. Oldtown should have about the same number, Lannisport is said to be significantly smaller than both but is still much larger than Gulltown and White Harbour. So unless you're willing to believe than less than 2% of the population lives in the Top 5 cities in Westeros, that estimates seems much too big to me.

[Cosmic Maintenance Man]

Evamitchelle, on 14 January 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

I have trouble believing this as well. King's Landing, the largest city in Westeros, only has about 500,000 inhabitants according to Tyrion. Oldtown should have about the same number, Lannisport is said to be significantly smaller than both but is still much larger than Gulltown and White Harbour. So unless you're willing to believe than less than 2% of the population lives in the Top 5 cities in Westeros, that estimates seems much too big to me.

I don't really believe it myself either, I just showed 2 different sources that state different numbers. I didn't say whether or not I believed they were correct.

Edited by Cosmic Maintenance Man, 14 January 2012 - 04:16 AM.

[The Drunkard]

At the end of the series Westeros will consist of 10 people playing cards on mountains of corpses.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Evamitchelle, on 14 January 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

I have trouble believing this as well. King's Landing, the largest city in Westeros, only has about 500,000 inhabitants according to Tyrion. Oldtown should have about the same number, Lannisport is said to be significantly smaller than both but is still much larger than Gulltown and White Harbour. So unless you're willing to believe than less than 2% of the population lives in the Top 5 cities in Westeros, that estimates seems much too big to me.

Well, in the Middle Ages 95 % of the population didn't live in ANY city. These estimates seem reasonable.

[master]

Cosmic Maintenance Man, on 14 January 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

(This info comes from the IceandFire wikia)

Total Population of Westeros: 75 million
The population is divided by the provinces as follows (Note: these numbers are estimates):

• The North: 15 million
  
• The Vale: 10 million
  
• The Stormlands: 15 million
  
• The Reach (including Riverlands): 25 million
  
• The Westerlands: 15 million
  
• The Iron Islands: 2 million
  
• Dorne and the southern provinces: 10 million

Other sources state that the population is much less than that (like the poster above me), so I'm not certain.

source: http://www.fordham.e.../pop-in-eur.asp

this source says that europe in 1340 had 73 million. according to wikipedia south america is almost double the size of europe.

http://en.wikipedia...._and_population

so according to a basic google this does seem to be roughly accurate.

[Apple Martini]

master, on 14 January 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

source: http://www.fordham.e.../pop-in-eur.asp

this source says that europe in 1340 had 73 million. according to wikipedia south america is almost double the size of europe.

http://en.wikipedia...._and_population

so according to a basic google this does seem to be roughly accurate.

I'm not sure you can make a straight-across comparison between Europe and Westeros in this way, or assume that they have the same population density. Westeros may be the size of South America, but a fair bit of land is still "beyond the wall" and not part of the Seven Kingdoms proper. We also know that Dorne and the North, which make up two pretty big chunks of territory (the North is the largest singular kingdom, by a fair margin) have fairly low population densities.

If those numbers are accurate, the military numbers we've been given don't match the demographics at all. Robb went south with what, 18K-20K men? With a population of 15 million, he should have fielded 10-15 times that, and same with all of the other houses.

[mor2]

So far most estimates I seen take the information provided by GRRM about the strength of the armies each region can field and multiplied by some factor(1%-2%, ?). We also know that KL held 500k(before the blackwater, so normally much less). So all we can say that the seven kingdoms holds a few millions (35?)

[Dalfiatach]

Considering the 5 major cities have less than 2 million between them, and large chunks of territory are very sparsely populated - the North, the Neck, Dorne...aren't we told that the Stormlands are basically trees and rocks too?...also places like Crackclaw Point and the mountains of the Vale...then the bulk of the population must be in the Reach/Riverlands/Westlands.

I'd doubt there'd be more than around 20 million or so.

[Doran II]

I doubt there are more than 3 millions in the entire continent, much of it desert, moutains and forests.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Doran II, on 14 January 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

I doubt there are more than 3 millions in the entire continent, much of it desert, moutains and forests.

...with every healthy male between twenty and fifty a soldier? Have fun starving. Twenty millions all around is the barest minimum needed to afford the armies we know the size of.

[Talleyrand]

Cosmic Maintenance Man, on 14 January 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

(This info comes from the IceandFire wikia)

Total Population of Westeros: 75 million
The population is divided by the provinces as follows (Note: these numbers are estimates):

• The North: 15 million
  
• The Vale: 10 million
  
• The Stormlands: 15 million
  
• The Reach (including Riverlands): 25 million
  
• The Westerlands: 15 million
  
• The Iron Islands: 2 million
  
• Dorne and the southern provinces: 10 million

Other sources state that the population is much less than that (like the poster above me), so I'm not certain.

That figure can't be right. Tywin managed to get 65,000 and only by Stafford "Scrapping the Westerlands"

[Doran II]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 14 January 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

...with every healthy male between twenty and fifty a soldier? Have fun starving. Twenty millions all around is the barest minimum needed to afford the armies we know the size of.

lol 20 milions? really? I doubt it, if you think into account the vastly unpopulated north, the deserts of dorne, the mountais of the vale, the stormlands "trees and rocks" what you get is a continent with a low population density, if you add to that the low quality of life in a feudal-like enviroment with a low life expectancy you'll hardly reach those 20 millions.