123 replies to this topic

[Gala]

So1ar, on 11 January 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

That sounds like something Darth Vader would say.

Well, probably, but we are not at the Star Wars universe here

[Knight Of Winter]

Night, on 11 January 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Bran may not knowingly choose evil, but I'm not sure his tutelage under Bloodraven is going to be entirely benign.  "Never fear the darkness, Bran.....the strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

I imagine Melisandre would not be pleased when she hears this .

Actually, when she glimpses Bran and Bloodraven in her fires, she immediately assumes they are potential enemies. Which leads to interesting point: is Great Other connected with actual Others or Children of the Forest (any by extension, Old Gods)?

[RandomWanderer]

Personally I think it's about perspective.. I honestly don't see anything evil or dark about the faceless men.. they perform a service that is needed. I guess you could say the assassination part of their services might be " evil" but they also allow those who choose to, to obtain the gift.


as for the children and Bran, I again see things differently then most people.. just because theres a bunch of skeletal parts in a cave doesn't mean "oooh it's like halloween so they must be evil". Many cultures keep the skeletal remains of their ancestors and dig them up every few years etc, ancient cultures were much more use to death and stuff like that, especially if you are a nature based type of race/culture.

Edited by RandomWanderer, 11 January 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[Francis Buck]

Well, I'm one of those wackos that thinks the Starks are the Kings of Winter and will ally with the Others in the end, so yes I definitely think the Stark children are following a "darker" path, though I do believe it's all up to perspective. Regardless, it certainly isn't a coincidence that they're all being taught different skills which will help them claim their "revenge" with the coming of winter. Assassin, politician, magician, etc.

I actually think Jon's "role" is fairly clear as well: ruler and commander. His "training" was the Night's Watch itself, in particular his time spent as Lord Commander.

Rickon's the wildcard, since it's hard to imagine exactly what purpose he'll serve at such a young age. That being said, I do think there are many misconceptions about Skagos. As others have mentioned, we know they have Houses pledged to the Starks, so they're at least somewhat organized. Whether or not they're actually cannibals is harder to say. If they are, then I think it has something to do with wargs, greenseers, and/or the Old Gods, all of which may tie into the whole "Jojen Paste" theory (I'm not sold on that, but I don't think it's totally bullshit either).

Edited by Francis Buck, 11 January 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[RandomWanderer]

So1ar, on 11 January 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

That sounds like something Darth Vader would say.

or uh... batman The Darkness doesn't always have to hide bad/evil types . It is neutral in whom it hides.. muahha.

[Feather Crystal]

I'm surprised your interpretation is of "darkness". I see 5 "bastards", outcasts rather, each in their own way who have better powers of observation and understanding than the people around them. Or rather, en-lightened. Not only that, these 5 each are reborn in some way. Bran is a bastard by being a cripple and he is reborn after Lady's death causes him to wake up and realize his 3rd eye. Jon is the traditional definition of bastard and I'm expecting him to be reborn of Ice. Dang is an exiled princess, a bastard to her kingdom and was reborn of fire. Arya was a tomboy, a bastard to her gender and reborn as Arry. And lastly, Tyrio said all dwarfs are bastards to their father's, and he was reborn as the Hand, although we may see something further. Unfortunately Sansa so far hasn't shown any higher enlightenment or rebirth. I have seen perhaps an awakening that her life isn't a fairy tale.

[AxB]

Skagos is an island. An island is something that, by definition, is surrounded by Fish. So you have hundred of people, for generations, feasting on human flesh, because they don't like the taste of fish?

We haven't seen that many picky eaters in Westeros before.

About Machiavellianism. GRRM may show that Machiavellian people rise to power succesfully, but in no way does he show that they are better (or happier) people becuase of it. Whilst you could read the series as a whole-hearted endorsement of Mach. theory (and people who share that mindset probably do read it that way), I think it's more an exploration of power and what it does to people.

But if you were asked, who is the best person in the books (not your favourite character, the best person), how many would say Tywin Lannister? Not many. Most would probably say Ned... and for all Tywin's skill and power, for all Ned's compassion, they're both as dead as each other right now.

Who is the happiest person in the books? Who, across the series, is the most comfortable and is enjoying thier life the most? Because the people who seemed pretty pleased with themselves in the beginning, they aren't too happy with themselves now.

[Black Crow]

AxB, on 12 January 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

Skagos is an island. An island is something that, by definition, is surrounded by Fish. So you have hundred of people, for generations, feasting on human flesh, because they don't like the taste of fish?

Wasn't the cannibalism a one-off due to some famine rather than a regular taste for human flesh?

[Capon Breath]

Won't it be terrible if the Stark kids get into horiffic situations because of their own and thier fathers honoruable actions and then end up in much better situations by following a much darker path?

[JP Dayne]

I think bran is the most impressionable of the kids. BR can do whatever with him. While I dont think he's grey nor evil (hell, I even think he's the most engaging character in the series determined to stop the Others invasion). See evidence in his demeanor when listening to stories from nan's, luwin, meera, jojen, osha, whoever.
Rickon doesnt seem to have a personality to take any sort of shit. Specially after spending like 6 months with a hardened badass wildling spearwife. Davor will have his hands full

Samsa, I think she's just plain stupid and naive, still dreaming the fairytale waiting for a gallant white knight in his stallion to rescue and marry her. We've been teased for 4 and a half books, waiting for her to snap. Closest we had was when joff made her look at the heads in KL gates. I'm done waiting, lol

[babyberic]

Melisandra, on 12 January 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

I'm surprised your interpretation is of "darkness". I see 5 "bastards", outcasts rather, each in their own way who have better powers of observation and understanding than the people around them. Or rather, en-lightened. Not only that, these 5 each are reborn in some way.

I really like the notion of rebirth. It's definitely a major theme in the novels. The whole cycle of winter/spring is also a cycle of rebirth. Winter is coming -- it's going to get darker and the night's going to get longer, folks.

AxB said:

Skagos is an island. An island is something that, by definition, is surrounded by Fish. So you have hundred of people, for generations, feasting on human flesh, because they

don't like the taste of fish?

Island terrain doesn't always mean fish are abundant for subsistence farmers / hunters gatherers, etc. Ireland had a famine, and it's an island. Easter Island and other isolated islands have histories of famine.

Edited by babyberic, 13 January 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[Feather Crystal]

babyberic, on 13 January 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

I really like the notion of rebirth. It's definitely a major theme in the novels. The whole cycle of winter/spring is also a cycle of rebirth. Winter is coming -- it's going to get darker and the night's going to get longer, folks.

That was a very insightful observation! I like it!

I am thinking of starting a thread about "symbolism", and I may insert your post when I first write the topic.

I've edited this post to add that someone already started a Symbolism topic/thread under the General area of A Song of Ice and Fire. If you want to join in, just search the word "symbolism". It will bring up a google search. Click on the first link that pops up and you'll be brought back into this website.

Edited by Melisandra, 13 January 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[Grail King]

JP Dayne, on 13 January 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I think bran is the most impressionable of the kids. BR can do whatever with him. While I dont think he's grey nor evil (hell, I even think he's the most engaging character in the series determined to stop the Others invasion). See evidence in his demeanor when listening to stories from nan's, luwin, meera, jojen, osha, whoever.
Rickon doesnt seem to have a personality to take any sort of shit. Specially after spending like 6 months with a hardened badass wildling spearwife. Davor will have his hands full

Samsa, I think she's just plain stupid and naive, still dreaming the fairytale waiting for a gallant white knight in his stallion to rescue and marry her. We've been teased for 4 and a half books, waiting for her to snap. Closest we had was when joff made her look at the heads in KL gates. I'm done waiting, lol

If you're expecting Sansa to be in your face badass then stop holding your breath, unlike Robb, Jon, and Arya, Sansa is a behind the scene player it's her powers of observation and her ability to ferret out little nuances of plans that she is learning and has learned, if you expect her to go ape shit that may only happen if she finds out what Little Finger did to her family and even then, she just may kiss the man as she drops the strangler in his drink and watch him die as she did the knight at the Hands tourney.

[Feather Crystal]

JP Dayne, on 13 January 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

I think bran is the most impressionable of the kids. BR can do whatever with him. While I dont think he's grey nor evil (hell, I even think he's the most engaging character in the series determined to stop the Others invasion). See evidence in his demeanor when listening to stories from nan's, luwin, meera, jojen, osha, whoever.
Rickon doesnt seem to have a personality to take any sort of shit. Specially after spending like 6 months with a hardened badass wildling spearwife. Davor will have his hands full

Samsa, I think she's just plain stupid and naive, still dreaming the fairytale waiting for a gallant white knight in his stallion to rescue and marry her. We've been teased for 4 and a half books, waiting for her to snap. Closest we had was when joff made her look at the heads in KL gates. I'm done waiting, lol

Bran is the most insightful character so far. It's important for him to "see". I think this was part of why he liked to climb. He wanted the highest view to see more than what everyone was seeing. Pearson Moore suggested in his essays on the series that Bran believed Old Nan's stories were true because they were Bran's stories. I also think Rickon has the same gift of "sight", because we learn that he saw his father, Ned in the crypts after he was beheaded. Rickon, being as young as his is, just simply accepted that his father was there. He's been missing from the story so long that it makes me feel he has a huge reveal coming in the plot ahead.

And I am sooooo with you as a Sansa hater! We've seen many of the Stark children being very perceptive of the events surrounding them except Sansa...well, I think we can include Robb too. He didn't seem to indicate that he knew what was about to hit him. The other Starks also have been through, or are about to go through, a rebirth of some kind. Arya was reborn as Arry. Bran was reborn seeing with his third eye. Rickon's turn is coming, and I think Jon will be reborn of Ice. I do think though that Sansa has finally woke up to reality. GRRM hints that the end will be bittersweet. I hope the bittersweet part is Sansa's death.

[Gala]

Melisandra, I agree with you about Bran-he is the most insightful and very talented, obviously. Arya is quite strong and smart too! May be Rickon is now older and more "intelligent"!
I would like to see Jon to be alive and still be a strong person with clear understanding and with more abilities (don't sure about reborn of Ice, though).

But I don't agree about Sansa! Won't it be nice if somebody states "clean" and nice in the end? I don't know, she made a lot of mistakes, I hoped she would realize them, but it didn't happen. May be later, when she discovers truth about LF! I actually like Grail King's idea about standing and watching. I think she is not that weak as she think she is!

I also think that BR in reality wasn't bad at all. His reputation would be so "dark" because of his appearance (wouldn't you agree it's terrifying?!) and his abilities to sorcery, as well as his tough decisions (also probably because his was a bastard, even Great one, and we know what Westerosi think of them). When I read about him in Dunk and Egg stories he didn't seem to be that even, but apparently very talented, insightful and smart person!

[Feather Crystal]

Gala, on 13 January 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

Melisandra, I agree with you about Bran-he is the most insightful and very talented, obviously. Arya is quite strong and smart too! May be Rickon is now older and more "intelligent"!
I would like to see Jon to be alive and still be a strong person with clear understanding and with more abilities (don't sure about reborn of Ice, though).

But I don't agree about Sansa! Won't it be nice if somebody states "clean" and nice in the end? I don't know, she made a lot of mistakes, I hoped she would realize them, but it didn't happen. May be later, when she discovers truth about LF! I actually like Grail King's idea about standing and watching. I think she is not that weak as she think she is!

I also think that BR in reality wasn't bad at all. His reputation would be so "dark" because of his appearance (wouldn't you agree it's terrifying?!) and his abilities to sorcery, as well as his tough decisions (also probably because his was a bastard, even Great one, and we know what Westerosi think of them). When I read about him in Dunk and Egg stories he didn't seem to be that even, but apparently very talented, insightful and smart person!

I think a lot of my Sansa hate is because I've read too many "Official Sansa Appreciation" threads praising her actions up to this point. I really don't think there's too much to praise, but she is showing signs of realizing that she's not in a fairy tale with brave prince's coming to rescue her.

I too have read the three Dunk and Egg stories. He was an imposing, but righteous character. I do not think of him as "dark" because dark usually equates "evil". Brynden Rivers isn't evil. He's a true servent of the Realm regardless of who is on the Iron Throne.

[ElizaMartell]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 10 January 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Actually, I'm hoping for the Starks to get a little darker. Don't get me wrong, I'm not meaning "evil" darker but "we are freaking badasses and you're gonna pay for what you did to my family" darker   And I can't wait for Davos to find Rickon, I mean, Davos is just awesome and the wild little Stark could learn a lot from him, I just hope Davos doesn't pull a Quentyn and gets eaten by Shaggy

I was nodding my head along with your points then I got to the last sentence, burst out laughing.

[Gala]

Melisandra, on 13 January 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I think a lot of my Sansa hate is because I've read too many "Official Sansa Appreciation" threads praising her actions up to this point. I really don't think there's too much to praise, but she is showing signs of realizing that she's not in a fairy tale with brave prince's coming to rescue her.

I too have read the three Dunk and Egg stories. He was an imposing, but righteous character. I do not think of him as "dark" because dark usually equates "evil". Brynden Rivers isn't evil. He's a true servent of the Realm regardless of who is on the Iron Throne.

It's understandable (about Sansa appreciation threads)-there're too many.

And yes, I also do not see him as evil, just people saw him that way because of his look, his intelligence and his talents (which are very rare, I presume). I also thought about some similarity with Tyrion: ugly look, very smart and has never been liked by people (I mean common people in general).

Edited by Gala, 13 January 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

ElizaMartell, on 13 January 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

I was nodding my head along with your points then I got to the last sentence, burst out laughing.

Cannot help it, I'm really concerned about Davos safety with Shaggydog around, he's wild!

[Feather Crystal]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 13 January 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Cannot help it, I'm really concerned about Davos safety with Shaggydog around, he's wild!

Perhaps, "pull a Quentyn" will become a common saying?