423 replies to this topic

[Howdyphillip]

Page after page of the debate on who gets in a playoff system prove my point to me that a playoff system is just as flawed as the current system, and does nothing but take away from the regular season. No matter where you cut off, or who selects the format, someone is left out. It is still possible that the fifth, or ninth rated team could have beaten any other team on the board on any given Saturday.

Not only do we still have controversy, but rooting interest changes. You are now rooting against teams in your conference at times that are not head to head match ups. The more teams let in to a playoff system, the greater that chance becomes.

The bottom line is, that now, three of the best four teams in the land will go home a loser instead of one or two of them. All of this, so we can now talk about how screwed up another system is intead of the one that we used to have.

[lockesnow]

So does Penn State get the death penalty before the season starts or after the season ends?

I presume after, but I can't imagine any different outcome for the school at this point.

Actually, I can, as an USC alumnus, I'm well aware that sports agents recruiting an athlete to leave school early (and the athlete not telling the program about the recruitment) is the second worst violation to occur at any NCAA football school ever, so I imagine a program-wide conspiracy to cover up rape and child abuse is not as severe in the sight of the NCAA.

[Triskele]

I don't know if there's any punishment that is too much for Penn State.

On the one hand, there are so many people who had nothing to do with this at all who would be harmed.

On the other hand, I think child molestation is one of the uglier things in our world, and that an institution like this could have knowingly swept it under the rug and allowed it to continue is unconscionable.

[Bronn Stone]

I trust the basketball committee a LOT more than I would trust football.  The NCAA football hierarchy has already intentionally and willfully tweaked the Strength of Schedule component beyond recognition.  Any SoS measure that disregards home/away and treats all Div 1 FBS conferences equally.  A 6-6 Sun Belt team is not the same as a 6-6 Big 12 team.

Any conference that needs a waiver to qualify for Div1 status (looking at you Sun Belt and Big West) should count a LOT less in SoS than one with rich traditions, full stadia and expensive TV contracts.  Record on the field comes first, but records gained at the expense of FCS teams or teams from conferences that are only FBS by courtesy (ie SEC arm-twisting) should not count nearly as much.  But they do.  Because the SEC wanted it that way and got their way.

Edited by Bronn Stone, 12 July 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[lockesnow]

Trzysztof Trieślowski, on 12 July 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

On the other hand, I think child molestation is one of the uglier things in our world, and that an institution like this could have knowingly swept it under the rug and allowed it to continue is unconscionable.

BUT! is it worse than Mike Garrett not pretending to be Mr. Nice Guy to the NCAA?

I think not, the one is clearly worse because it is so disrespectful and hurt my feelings.

[Rhom]

Penn State will certainly be hit with millions and millions of dollars worth of punitive civil judgments in the years to come.  That said, I do not believe that it is an NCAA issue.  Its disgusting in every sense of the word, but it had nothing to do with competition which is what the NCAA is there to enforce.  The SMU death penalty case and the USC sanctions both directly involved student athletes receiving benefits they were not entitled to.  This case is only related to football in that the principals happened to coach football. The closest correlarly that I'm aware of would be the Baylor murder and cover-up by Dave Bliss, but even so I don't feel that this case falls under the jurisdiction of NCAA enforcement.

With all that said, I'm firmly in the "Take down the Paterno statue" camp.

[kalbear]

It's very related to football. It's a coverup of massive premeditated crimes that could have been stopped. And the coverup happened solely because of the effect on the football program. That means they did it to gain unfair advantage in football. And that means its also a NCAA rule violation.

[Rhom]

Kalbear, on 13 July 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

It's very related to football. It's a coverup of massive premeditated crimes that could have been stopped. And the coverup happened solely because of the effect on the football program. That means they did it to gain unfair advantage in football. And that means its also a NCAA rule violation.

I dunno if I'm buying that argument.  Yes its tangentially related, but I'm not positive that I can draw a direct line to on the field competition.  Its obvious that it was done to "protect the shield" and the legacy of Joe Pa; but I just have a real problem with the NCAA stepping into an issue that has been properly handled (to this point) in the criminal court system.

I think it would be fascinating to see if JoePa were to face criminal charges had he lived.  I think the evidence is clearly there for interfering in an investigation and perhaps even naming him as a criminal co-conspirator.

[Howdyphillip]

I'm not ready to call covering up for a child molester an unfair competitive advantage, but the NCAA needs to shut the program down. It is blatantly obvious that football was more important to these people then the fact that children were being raped.

I also would call for any University scheduled to play Penn State to do the right thing and refuse to get on the field with that team if the NCAA will not act.

[Rhom]

I can't help but wonder how this will all play out when Law and Order: SVU gets their hands on it...

[Greywolf2375]

Rhom, on 13 July 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

I dunno if I'm buying that argument.  Yes its tangentially related, but I'm not positive that I can draw a direct line to on the field competition.  Its obvious that it was done to "protect the shield" and the legacy of Joe Pa; but I just have a real problem with the NCAA stepping into an issue that has been properly handled (to this point) in the criminal court system.

I think it would be fascinating to see if JoePa were to face criminal charges had he lived.  I think the evidence is clearly there for interfering in an investigation and perhaps even naming him as a criminal co-conspirator.

I think the direct line correlation is in what it would have done to the name of PSU back then if it had come out and the impact on recruiting.  It was covered up so that there was no negative impact. They were still able to get more top flight recruits because the name and reputation of the school didn't have anything to tarnish it.

No, what Sandusky committed did not have a direct impact on someone scoring or not (point shaving, etc) but the cover up did allow them to get players that might have chosen to go somewhere else had this been brought to light.  Even if they had all done the right thing, it would have had a short term impact....now, since this was institutionally supported, the impact from this should be felt for a very long time.

[Triskele]

http://espn.go.com/c...all-partnership

[S John]

Yep, just saw that myself Trisky, too bad.  I'm surprised they couldn't work something out.  I wonder what the hold ups were.  I bet this is somehow Notre Dame's fault.

[lockesnow]

That stinks, I'm pretty certain USC was behind this.

Just Wait, though, for the epic hissy fits over the 9 conference games vs 8 conference games debate and how the super-playoff-friends-committee factors that into their strength of schedule, win/loss and other such considerations when they pick their annual two SEC teams and two lucky other people for the 4 team playoff.

Leagues like the SEC being too pussy to play 9 conference games is a MASSIVE competitive advantage in the stats department and those stats will be a huge consideration in the playoff committee's decision.

[kalbear]

USC and Utah were the primary folks stating things weren't good. And with actual reasonable reason. USC had their annual game with ND and a game with Texas; that means their schedule would look something like the Pac-12 9 games + ND, Texas and OSU.

That's a brutal schedule.

What really killed it was the lack of conference champion as the guarantor of a playoff berth. If it's only conf champs the Pac-12 would be fine. If it isn't, well, you've got to worry about rankings and records instead of results.

[Bronn Stone]

Too bad.  I would LOVE a two-year 'all comers' matchup.  Basically designate two dates in two seasons (say the Saturday after the 5th week after Labor Day for 2019 and 2020).  In 2019 the Big 10 hosts, in 2020 the Pac 12.  Matchups based solely on finishes from the year before.  Scheduling isn't a huge problem as long as nobody schedules a team from the other conference.  The publicity would wipe the other conferences off of ESPN-et al. for the week.  Great for the fans and would work with the issues inherent in long-term collegiate scheduling.

[Rhom]

I had a bit of a Penn State epiphany today that may have changed my outlook on NCAA sanctions or no.  While listening to a generally anti-sanctions discussion on Mike and Mike this morning, they mentioned the inappropriateness of comparing the scandal to the USC or Ohio State situations.  At one point they even said "This isn't trading pants for tattoos here."

That got me spinning this entire thing in another direction.  Would I be okay with sanctions if Paterno and company had decided to cover up sex abuse allegations for a star player?  In a situation like that, I think I'm 100% on board with a penalty.  Now that I've made that leap, I just need to further evaluate where I draw the line between player and coach.  

[lockesnow]

I'm really disappointed how across the board anti-sanctions for Penn State ESPN is.  What a fucking poisonous corporate policy.

[BLU-RAY]

Really? I feel like a bunch of their talking heads came out pro-death penalty immediately following the Freeh Report.

[Rhom]

Bobby Bowden is now the all time wins leader.



I had come around to the camp that some form of punishment would be forthcoming and perhaps justified, but I didn't know they were going to vacate almost 15 years worth of wins!  That's amazing.  Not that it really matters other than removing him from the top of the record books.

4 year bowl ban
20 scholarship reduction
Vacated wins back to 1998
$60 million penalty

This isn't the death penalty... but its damn close.

I hate to see the penalties come this late (or early?) into the football year.  Most of the top schools already have their 85 schollies spoken for, so even if the current players want to leave there's not any good options for them to take.

On a purely selfish and perhaps completely out of line note... it means that Tim Couch and Kentucky actually won that 1999 Outback Bowl.  

Edited by Rhom, 23 July 2012 - 08:41 AM.