[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4

[Mairon]

Sorry, can't get on the Stannis bandwagon.. He helped to kill my beloved Robb and his father - The Ned

Can you really blame Stannis for that. His part in that was very indirect.

[MtnLion]

Stannis and Melisandre will have a very dark future together. Daenerys will expose that Stannis is not AA to discredit his bid for the throne. After he loses his bid for the throne, I see him inhabiting the Night Fort and slowly getting darker and darker.

[Melifeather]

I think we can anticipate many characters killed by dragon fire. I hope Stannis ends up fighting along side Daenerys against the Others. I am hoping that the pink letter is not true.

[Timmay]

I'd like to see Brienne, the First Female KingsGuard, Kingslayer Stan, and become just like her true love.

[Rockroi]

Stannis and Melisandre will have a very dark future together. Daenerys will expose that Stannis is not AA to discredit his bid for the throne. After he loses his bid for the throne, I see him inhabiting the Night Fort and slowly getting darker and darker.

His claim to the throne has nothing to do with the prophecy or his claim as AA Reborn. They are two separate and distinct issues. Stannis is Robert's closest living heir. Hence he's King. Nobody wants him as King, but that's immaterial, least of all to Stannis. If Stannis found out tomorrow (what I believe he already suspects) that he is not AA reborn he would not break stride, and he would have no reason to.

Sorry, can't get on the Stannis bandwagon.. He helped to kill my beloved Robb and his father - The Ned

Stannis had nothing really to do with either. First, Robb was way too busy killing himself to let Stannis help. Stannis' leech move had nothing to do with Robb's Herculean incompetence. And Robb was a traitor to the crown who refused to recognize the true King, so Stannis must protect the realm from criminal elements and therefore Robb had to go. And Ned's death was a product of Ned. Again, Stannis has little to do in that regard given the amazing efforts Ned took to make sure Cersei knew everything. Poor good, ol' dead Ned. Also, there is no way Stannis could have foreseen how amazingly inept Ned would be.

I mean if there is one sin, its that he killed Renly (his only defense is that he did not know Mal was sending in shadow babies etc). Then again Renly was a rebel lord at that point and therefore his death is really understandable.

Finally, if after all that we conclude that Stannis killed Robb (which I do not, but even if I did, Robb was a rebel), then well, Stannis would also get credit with killing Joffery. And that's gotta be big points right there. And bonus: killed Balon "Head Clean Up My Own Ass" Greyjoy. That's gotta be worth it.

I hope Stannis ends up fighting along side Daenerys against the Others. I am hoping that the pink letter is not true.

My pet theory (which I must admit are always wrong when trying to ascertain what characters WILL do [as opposed to what characters have done- ie: who are John Snow's parents?]) is that when confronted with Dany's return and Mel's realization that Jon Snow is AA Reborn, I think Stannis is going to get angry and mopey and despondent. But with the Others going all "Zombie Apocalypse", I think Stannis decides that he needs to destroy the Others, not continue to fight a meaningless Civil War. So he goes to Dany and says that he will 1) NEVER recognize her as Queen [because its Stannis and he's a dick] 2) that he will take as many volunteers as will be able and lead them on an attack against the Others. His goal will be to force as many Others into one concentrated spot as possible, 3) Stannis will then "recommend" to Dany that when all the Others are attacking his host that at that precise moment Dany and her two other heads unleash the 3 dragons and burn the Others (and his army) with dragonfire. With that (and still claiming himself to be the rightful King of Westeroes). with that, Stannis will assemble a motley crew of the cast-offs and crazies of Westeroes for one last glorious mission- so you get maybe Jaime Baristan Selmy, Theon, maybe the Hound, Brienne, etc. With his (completely fraudulent, but very bright) Lightbringer he will find a defensible position and allow all the Others to stream at him, he will keep his sword high above his head to give the Dragins a good target...

.. And he will die a glorious, honorable, hard-assed, duty-filled death. He will probably be miserable the whole time so everyone wins.

I'd like to see Brienne, the First Female KingsGuard, Kingslayer Stan, and become just like her true love.

And you could add that in- just as Stannis is about to give the order, Brienne stabs him in the back... and then SHE raises Lightbringer and you get the same result.

[Maxpey]

Well, I guess you can lead a horse to water....

It is quite clear that it is textual evidence to support that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, had a son at the Tower of Joy, and the King's Guard died defending him there. So, I guess we will have to wait until GRRM writes explicitly that for some people to get the message.

ETA: You are correct that it can be dismissed if a person does not comprehend more than one sentence at a time. If one considers the whole of the parts related to that scene, it is impossible to dismiss. Sorry, it is as plain as if GRRM had written exactly that. Of course GRRM can change people's eye colors and the sexes of horses, or the shape of a woman's hips; but it seems clear that he intended for the reader to understand the meaning of the scene as Jon being born as an heir, at that point the heir.

The biggest issue I have with the theory that the presence of the Kings Guard at the Tower of Joy proves that Jon is the rightful heir is how Ned views Jon. In GoT (I can't remember which chapter) Ned is thinking about Robert's bastards and then he sees "Jon Snow's face in front of him, so much like a younger version of his own." He then goes on to question why the Gods made men lust after woman, if they looked down so much on bastards. It is clear from this passage that Ned considers Jon a bastard. Why would Ned identify Jon as being a bastard if he was the rightful heir to the Targaryen dynasty?

[Rockroi]

It is quite clear that it is textual evidence to support that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, had a son at the Tower of Joy, and the King's Guard died defending him there. So, I guess we will have to wait until GRRM writes explicitly that for some people to get the message.

There is no evidence at all, actually.

You make a very specific claim and that claim requires very specific evidence. You state that the evidence "can be dismissed if a person does not comprehend more than one sentence at a time. If one considers the whole of the parts related to that scene, it is impossible to dismiss. Sorry, it is as plain as if GRRM had written exactly that. Of course GRRM can change people's eye colors and the sexes of horses, or the shape of a woman's hips; but it seems clear that he intended for the reader to understand the meaning of the scene as Jon being born as an heir, at that point the heir."

I just call bullshit frankly.

There is no passage nor set of passages that can be read that provide the barest hint of evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were, in fact, married.

This i snot to say that they were not, in fact, married; just that the books do not point us that way (yet). There are ample threads dedicated to this topic so I need not reinforce what has been said (and debated) in other ways. But I did not like your tone when you said that one needed to comprehend more than one sentence at a time and then had the nerve to say that GRRM has pretty much spelled it out. ORLY?!?! Then how come there is actually MORE evidence to suggest that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna than that they were married (there is more evidence, though, to support the claim that they ran off together willingly).

I find it galling when people claim something is clear and then provide zero evidence for the very claim.

[Melifeather]

I think Daenerys is Azor Ahai and she will wield Lightbringer. She will bring the dragon fire to fight the Others.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

There is no evidence at all, actually.

You make a very specific claim and that claim requires very specific evidence. You state that the evidence "can be dismissed if a person does not comprehend more than one sentence at a time. If one considers the whole of the parts related to that scene, it is impossible to dismiss. Sorry, it is as plain as if GRRM had written exactly that. Of course GRRM can change people's eye colors and the sexes of horses, or the shape of a woman's hips; but it seems clear that he intended for the reader to understand the meaning of the scene as Jon being born as an heir, at that point the heir."

I just call bullshit frankly.

There is no passage nor set of passages that can be read that provide the barest hint of evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were, in fact, married.

This i snot to say that they were not, in fact, married; just that the books do not point us that way (yet). There are ample threads dedicated to this topic so I need not reinforce what has been said (and debated) in other ways. But I did not like your tone when you said that one needed to comprehend more than one sentence at a time and then had the nerve to say that GRRM has pretty much spelled it out. ORLY?!?! Then how come there is actually MORE evidence to suggest that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna than that they were married (there is more evidence, though, to support the claim that they ran off together willingly).

I find it galling when people claim something is clear and then provide zero evidence for the very claim.

Yeah I agree with the bullshit part....i've pretty much read and reread all 5 books (save skipping a few of the boring Jon Snow and Bran chapters) and I have yet to see anything that says Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

How exactly did he get rid of his marriage to Elia? More importantly even IF he somehow got it dissolved that doesn't change the fact that Aegon would still the elder son. And thus the true heir to the throne....

Unless you buy the theory (which I think is nonsense) that Varys and even Jon Connington are lying and Young Griff is nothing but a pretender.

I think Daenerys is Azor Ahai and she will wield Lightbringer. She will bring the dragon fire to fight the Others.

I don't think this will be the case. It just doesn't make sense. Also doesn't another character mention that Lightbringer while glowing doesn't give off heat like the TRUE sword is supposed to?

[Melifeather]

Yeah I agree with the bullshit part....i've pretty much read and reread all 5 books (save skipping a few of the boring Jon Snow and Bran chapters) and I have yet to see anything that says Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

How exactly did he get rid of his marriage to Elia? More importantly even IF he somehow got it dissolved that doesn't change the fact that Aegon would still the elder son. And thus the true heir to the throne....

Unless you buy the theory (which I think is nonsense) that Varys and even Jon Connington are lying and Young Griff is nothing but a pretender.

I don't think this will be the case. It just doesn't make sense. Also doesn't another character mention that Lightbringer while glowing doesn't give off heat like the TRUE sword is supposed to?

The true Lightbringer should give off heat, that's what Maester Aemon said after Sam described the sword Stannis had. Maester Aemon didn't think he had Lightbringer because there was no heat. Benerro, high priest of R'hllor declared that Daenerys was Azor Ahai and I think she fits the description better than Stannis or Jon.

[alienarea]

The true Lightbringer should give off heat, that's what Maester Aemon said after Sam described the sword Stannis had. Maester Aemon didn't think he had Lightbringer because there was no heat. Benerro, high priest of R'hllor declared that Daenerys was Azor Ahai and I think she fits the description better than Stannis or Jon.

Have we ever discussed that Lightbringer only gives off heat if in the hands of the right person? For example the Dayne longsword Dawn doesn't give off heat as far as I know, but maybe it does wielded by ... (insert Jon, Daenerys, Stannis, ...).

[CrypticWeirwood]

Dragon is Lightbringer: he gives off heat, and Dany wields him.

[ThundergodCid]

Have we ever discussed that Lightbringer only gives off heat if in the hands of the right person? For example the Dayne longsword Dawn doesn't give off heat as far as I know, but maybe it does wielded by ... (insert Jon, Daenerys, Stannis, ...).

Or does Lightbringer need to be forged with blood like Azor Ahai's? Didn't he have to kill his wife for it to work? So could Stannis stab Melisandre and "awaken" the sword?

Not Melisandre probably, but something costly to him...Shireen? God, I would hope not.

[Melifeather]

Or does Lightbringer need to be forged with blood like Azor Ahai's? Didn't he have to kill his wife for it to work? So could Stannis stab Melisandre and "awaken" the sword? Not Melisandre probably, but something costly to him...Shireen? God, I would hope not.

I'm thinking that if the sword already exists, that it would not need to be tempered again. And for some reason, I have the impression that it will be found near Asshai. Doesn't Dany's prophecy say she's to pass beneath the shadow near Asshai?

[alienarea]

I'm thinking that if the sword already exists, that it would not need to be tempered again. And for some reason, I have the impression that it will be found near Asshai. Doesn't Dany's prophecy say she's to pass beneath the shadow near Asshai?

If Lightbringer is a real sword and not a dragon or the Night Watch I have to favorites: Either Ice needs to be reforged (stabbing UnCat as it was Ned's sword and she his wife?) or Dawn (with a name like this it is destined for the battle of the dawn).

Crackpot: Jaimie being brought before UnCat, sentenced to trial by combat against Brienne, neither wants to fight so UnCat gets stabbed with Oathkeeper (part of Ice).

[baxter]

I'm thinking that if the sword already exists, that it would not need to be tempered again. And for some reason, I have the impression that it will be found near Asshai. Doesn't Dany's prophecy say she's to pass beneath the shadow near Asshai?

Here's the things, does anyone ever recall Dany wielding a sword? I mean, it may just be me, but I would think having an incompetent (in that sense) wielding the most powerful sword in the world (metaphorically) would end rather poorly. What, is she going to all of a sudden become a mighty swordsman? If she is AA, I've always thought of Drogon as her sword. If the sword is literal (or there are multiple AA's) I think of Jon Snow's dream, of being armored in black ice, his blade burning red in his fists. In the following paragraph he screams "I am the Lord of Winterfell." Perhaps his heritage has been revealed, though he chooses the song of Ice (explaining his armor and still being at the wall and claiming to be of Winterfell). To me this is the foreshadowing of his future as AA with Lightbringer, and following this line, "It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off." So Longclaw becomes Lightbringer.

I keep thinking about the tempering of Lightbringer from the old story of AA, and how he had to quench the blade in his lovers heart. Part of me wonders if perhaps he does this by killing Ghost since they are connected so deeply... I've also thought of other people at the wall this could be, it could be Mel, it could be Val, but they wouldn't match the emotional equivalent of a wife, it sounds like the sword may just need a soul attached to it. Also for some who think Arya will be sent to dispatch Jon (I hardly believe this) but in this case, she's the only one he truly ever connected with, perhaps it's her. However, if you read the prophecy "In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." Perhaps it only has to be drawn from flame.

To me, I feel like there could be TWO AA's, Jon and Dany, or that they together are AA. First, I watched an interview on thronecast w/ GRRM, and when asked about how a movie would have worked he said they would have been forced to follow the story of two characters, Dany and Jon in order to capture the story and miss a lot of developments. He said there is no single character that is more important, again drawing me to think the two are linked in more ways than one. To me that was very telling, A Song of Ice and Fire in his eyes is revolved around these two. If that is the case, then Jon is not dead dead, because he's a part of the story, part of Dany's story. So perhaps they are both required, or both sum up to AA. Dany pulled her sword, Drogon from the flames when birthing the dragons. Jon rises from the "dead" most likely from the store room under the ice. Jon can't defeat the Others on his own and dreams how the NW have all left him.

I don't know, I'm not GRRM and lack the imagination to how it all can come together, but to me I feel like they aren't mutually exclusive. I just don't see Jon wishing to rule the kingdom, so perhaps he will rule the North as Ice and protect the realm from any other threats, and Dany will sit on the throne and nourish the south. Oh well, just blindly guessing now.

[aryagonnakill]

If Theon is "redeemed" as you think, can you explain to me why Theon--when Theon lept from the tower with Jeyne-- took it upon himself to land on top of Jeyne Poole rather than being a man and placing her on top so she'd land on him? Or why Theon did not tell Jeyne's true identity when they reached the Umbars? Or when they reached Stannis? I'm hopeful Theon will improve as a human being but IMO even in the Dec 2012 sample that Theon's still the self centered selfish jerk, aspiring for wealth and glory and so egocentric he believes himself honest, but no more honest or trustworthy than when we first met him in AGOT. Whatever his flaws, I think flawed Theon will try and redeem his betrayal of the Starks.

Theon states directly in his head in the gift chapter that he thinks about telling stannis that is is jeyne pool and not arya but that she might come to danger because they would have no more use for her... so your basically argueing that theon is redeemable. Tho i agree with your point about him landing on her instead of the other way around