496 replies to this topic

[ManyFacedOne]

Glyn Tarvoke, on 21 January 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

If Theon is "redeemed" as you think, can you explain to me why Theon--when Theon lept from the tower with Jeyne-- took it upon himself to land on top of Jeyne Poole rather than being a man and placing her on top so she'd land on him?  Or why Theon did not tell Jeyne's true identity when they reached the Umbars?  Or when they reached Stannis?

I never said he was redeemed. The atrocities he committed in the past will remain so no matter what he does; however, I do think he's a much better person for all he's gone through. As for leaping from the tower, what makes you think he wanted to land on her? Or that it was in any way in his control? That's quite the assumption considering the situation.

And isn't it obvious why he doesn't reveal her true name? As Jeyne, she's worthless; as Arya, she has great value. Who knows what they would've done to her had they known she was a fake, but as Arya she'll definitely be treated kindly and receive help.  

Quote

I'm hopeful Theon will improve as a human being but IMO even in the Dec 2012 sample that Theon's still the self centered selfish jerk, aspiring for wealth and glory and so egocentric he believes himself honest, but no more honest or trustworthy than when we first met him in AGOT.  Whatever his flaws, I think flawed Theon will try and redeem his betrayal of the Starks.

Wealth and glory? How in any way did his ADwD chapters or this one gave you that idea? Also, the Theon from ACoK is done. His experiences as Reek saw to that.

Edited by ManyFacedOne, 22 January 2012 - 07:07 PM.

[The Drunkard]

On the topic of Theon, why doesn't he tell Stannis that Bran and Rickon are alive? He's got so much motive to get back at the Bolton's, and that sort of information could be the thing that keeps him alive.

[FanTasy]

The Drunkard, on 22 January 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

On the topic of Theon, why doesn't he tell Stannis that Bran and Rickon are alive? He's got so much motive to get back at the Bolton's, and that sort of information could be the thing that keeps him alive.

Because of 'Arya'.

[Manuel Zavatta]

FanTasy, on 22 January 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Because of 'Arya'.

He don't even know where they are, how can he know if they're alive?

[Lady Octarina]

Grail King, on 21 January 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

Well he made the trek in blizzard conditions, got word to Stannis about the Karstarks , so I would not call him a coward, I thought it meant protecting the IB interest, or very tough negotiator.

A coward from Theon's perspective, not a coward from his own action. Anyway, that was just a guess at interpreting his words

[Rose of Winterfell]

The Drunkard, on 22 January 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

On the topic of Theon, why doesn't he tell Stannis that Bran and Rickon are alive? He's got so much motive to get back at the Bolton's, and that sort of information could be the thing that keeps him alive.

Perhaps his trying to protect them out of guilt. The more people who know they're alive, the more danger that puts them in.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Its likely no one would believe him anyway.  He has no proof that he lied.  The fact that his actions led to the downfall of House Stark also weighs very heavily against him.

Another explanation is guilt.  He may feel that he should pay for the lives of those two innocent boys.

[Carey Snow]

Jaehaerys I, on 18 January 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

I can't wait for Stannis to crush the Boltons and Freys. Am I one of the only people that doesn't feel bad at all for Theon and still wants him to die? I have no sympathy for him.

Theon killed a lot of people that he grew up with at Winterfell and would have killed Bran and Rickon if he would have caught them early in the chase. Plus he betrayed his best buddy Robb. He deserves death and no way will Stannis let those crimes slide. Theon will die, Stannis does not have it it in him to let Theon live. Of course, the battle could happen and Stannis lose and then Theon would be back in Bolton's hands. A much worse fate.

I want to see Theon die.

Edited by Carey Wilson, 23 January 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[Carey Snow]

Rose of Winterfell, on 22 January 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Perhaps his trying to protect them out of guilt. The more people who know they're alive, the more danger that puts them in.

I agree, plus Theon is so guilt wrecked and insane at this point he is not thinking logically. He is all for the death Stannis has in mind for him. Theon's story is a sad one even though he deserves his fate.

[WetHair]

Carey Wilson, on 22 January 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

I agree, plus Theon is so guilt wrecked and insane at this point he is not thinking logically. He is all for the death Stannis has in mind for him. Theon's story is a sad one even though he deserves his fate.

I don't believe that he is actually "for" the death Stannis has in mind for him; though he's not dead set againist it either.  If he was really so keen, he wouldn't have wanted Jeyne to correctly answer Mors Umber's questions so badly.  "Mikken, Theon thought.  His name was Mikken....Remember, damn you.  Your father was the steward, he had charge of the whole household.  The smith's name was Mikken, Mikken, Mikken."

And, I agree with many others, Asha is very fishy.  When she is asking Stannis to spare Theon (though this was the opposite of what she supposedly came to him for.....) she says,  "Theon is my mother's last surviving son.  When his brothers died, it shattered her."

Why say "my" mother, not "our" mother?  Why say "his" brothers rather than "our" brothers?

[Tini]

Asha wanted to use Theon to call for another kingsmoot, to overthrow the decision that made Euron King. I wonder if Theon in his current state is of any use to her. It's possible that the Ironborn will either claim that the wreck Ramsay created is not Theon, or that he is a cripple unfit to rule and refuse to call another kingsmoot. Asha herself didn't recognize her brother right away. And she knows how the Ironborn think, being one herself.

She doesn't really need Theon if she still intends to call for another kingsmoot - an imposter will serve her just as well, maybe even better. As long as the real Theon is no longer around to confuse matters.

I don't think that her lines are that fishy. She was not really close to her brothers, she was closer to her mother - hers, not theirs. Her choice of words expresses detachment.

She may also strive for detachment if she is just upset by her brother's impending doom - it might be easier for her to speak about her mother's feelings than to express her own grief.

[SynthFG]

Tini, on 23 January 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Asha wanted to use Theon to call for another kingsmoot, to overthrow the decision that made Euron King. I wonder if Theon in his current state is of any use to her. It's possible that the Ironborn will either claim that the wreck Ramsay created is not Theon, or that he is a cripple unfit to rule and refuse to call another kingsmoot. Asha herself didn't recognize her brother right away. And she knows how the Ironborn think, being one herself.

She doesn't really need Theon if she still intends to call for another kingsmoot - an imposter will serve her just as well, maybe even better. As long as the real Theon is no longer around to confuse matters.

She needs the real Theon,
The Damphir may not like Euron but he won't go against the rules to depose him and he won't nulify the Moot becasue of a fake,
The Iron Borne are about to get there asses handed to them as soon as the Redwyne fleet gets around the continent, the'll be pinned against a hostile shore by supertior forces unless they give up their gains and retreat to the islands and they are not the types to retreat,
So expect a repeat of Stannis's massacre of the Iron Fleet during the 1st rebellion
Also expect Euron to take off after Victaron as soon as he susspects betrayal, abandoning the Iron Islanders to the vengance of Highgarden

With Euron and Victaron missing Asha can use Theon to have the moot declared void and then give him to Stannis to lop his head off as Justice for the family from the Mill

[Tini]

No she does not need the real Theon. She does need a person who is believed to be Theon and fit to rule, to challenge Euron.

Are you sure that the Damphair would recognize the fake? Or that he would recognize Theon in the state he is in? And if he recognized Theon, that he would admit it, or call a vote for a candidate so obviously unfit? I don't think so.

[Ghost Rider]

ManyFacedOne, on 22 January 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

And isn't it obvious why he doesn't reveal her true name? As Jeyne, she's worthless; as Arya, she has great value. Who knows what they would've done to her had they known she was a fake, but as Arya she'll definitely be treated kindly and receive help.  

Is she really worthless as Jeyne Poole? If the Northerners and Stannis aren't complete idiots, they could make use of her. She could expose Ramsay Snow! Surely, that's worth something. If everybody knew that Ramsay Snow had married a fake Arya, the tenous hold of the Boltons on power would be further strained. As it is, still nobody knows that "Arya" is not Arya.

So who does it really benefit, if Theon doesn't want anybody to know that "Arya" isn't really Arya?
1) Most importantly Ramsay Snow and the Boltons
2) Possibly Theon Greyjoy: because he couldn't claim any longer that he rescued Arya Stark. Even though he could claim that by rescuing Jeyne he helped exposing the Boltons. Well, the Northerners want him dead either way. Just like Stannis. Maybe he hopes that FakeArya can make them feel more inclined to mercy toward him? Hmm, I really wonder at his motives now... that I think of them. Maybe he was afraid of the risk involved in telling the truth? Or maybe he thinks of the Northerners and Stannis as idiots who won't make use of exposing the Boltons? Or he still suffers from Stockholm syndrom?

The preview chapter imho increases the chances of Stannis' corroborated death to be true. FakeArya is sent away together with Justin Massey which explains why Ramsay Bolton wouldn't have found her. She is sent to the Wall, just the place where Ramsay suspects her to be.   Something will happen with Theon while he is with the trees (I suppose Asha could be there too) that could explain why Ramsay Bolton thought he escaped to the Wall.

And if Theon is right and Ramsay himself is going to take part in the battle, chances of him just being fooled by Manderly forces seem to dwindle. The more so because Manderly himself won't be with his forces, he is sick at Winterfell, possibly dying.

It could still be possible of course that Ramsay lost and just wanted to troll Jon. But then again... what does he gain from it? When I first read the pink letter, I really believed that it was written in desperation because it seemed so crazy. Looking at it now I am more inclined to believe that Ramsay is goading Jon. He sounds confident to the point of calling Jon to Winterfell to have a look at the corpses.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Ghost Rider, on 23 January 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

The more so because Manderly himself won't be with his forces, he is sick at Winterfell, possibly dying.

He’s not sick; he’s injured.

Count no one in this series dead did you have seen the body — drawn, quartered, and burnt to ashes. Probably best to wait for the ashes to cool, too, and scattered across the waters.

[Feather Crystal]

The Drunkard, on 22 January 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

On the topic of Theon, why doesn't he tell Stannis that Bran and Rickon are alive? He's got so much motive to get back at the Bolton's, and that sort of information could be the thing that keeps him alive.

Good question. I think Theon/Reek is very careful with whatever he says. He's been tortured to be sure to give the "right" answers. I think if it's clearly in his favor to do so, he will tell the truth of it. I do not see how his keeping Bran and Rickon a secret has anything to do with Arya/Jeyne. Perhaps FanTasy can explain?

[FanTasy]

Someone called out my name, I heard it resonating in the dungeon where the heretics linger

What I meant ... my thoughts are a bit fuzzy:

Theon is now seen as the one who saved Arya. But he is also still seen as the one who killed Bran and Rickon. ETA Who will believe him if he says they are not dead? He can't prove they are not dead.
Saving Arya for the North and getting her away from Bolton, therefore weakening Boltons claim, this could give him some goodwill, small change.

However, when it is known that Arya is a fake - and that Theon knew she is a fake, he looses this goodwill alltogether.
More so if it is known that he actively participated in making the fake wedding possible.
Theon was the one who gave Fake Arya away at the wedding at Winterfell.

I don't think he is afraid that they will kill him if the truth comes out.
But he is probably very, very afraid if they chose to sent him back to Ramsay, as his punishment.

And maybe Theon is genuinely concerned what will happen to Jeyne if her true identity is known.

Edited by FanTasy, 23 January 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[The Anti-Targ]

Great chapter.

I do wonder at all the enthusiasm over the apparently immenent arse whooping of the Boltons and Freys. Seems like people are a bit to sure of Stannis' victory. I'm not sure things will be quite so cut and dried. Stannis still thinks Manderly filled Davos, and until he's disabused of that ruse then he'll be out for Manderly blood. Until I see evidence that Manderly has got a message to Stannis that Davos is alive and well and on a secret mission then I'm not at all sure that Manderly will turn on Bolton and Frey at this time.

Personally I don't want Roose or Ramsey to come to an end until they have been publicly humiliated by being shown in front of gods and men that the Lannisters paid them false coin with the fake Arya. Theon, obviously, is the key here, unless Jon makes it back from the grave with all faculties in tact. And Theon will only expose Jeyne if he is assured of his and Jeyne's safety.

I want them humiliated, more than I want them executed.

[Carey Snow]

Tini, on 23 January 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

No she does not need the real Theon. She does need a person who is believed to be Theon and fit to rule, to challenge Euron.

Are you sure that the Damphair would recognize the fake? Or that he would recognize Theon in the state he is in? And if he recognized Theon, that he would admit it, or call a vote for a candidate so obviously unfit? I don't think so.

I agree. Theon, in his current state, hurts Asha much more than he helps her with the Damphair. Theon is pretty insane at this point and he is very incoherent (not to mention physically handicaped in their eyes as not being able to bear arms for battle). The Ironborn would dismiss him at first glance if Asha dragged him to a Kingsmoot.

Edited by Carey Wilson, 23 January 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

Theon is a Coward and will always be one.  I  bet when Stannis goes to cut off his head, Theon will tell him about Bran and Rickon to save his own ass. This dude fucked the starks over enough, but when his ass is on the line he will gladly sell-out the stark boys. Lets think about what kind of life that Bran or Rickon will live if held by stannis, they would be a hostage/ward just like Theon, but not treated as well as Theon because Ned and Stannis are not alike and Stannis will look down on them and be harsh, and if he can't find a use for them, he would just have them killed or do it himself.

I hope Stannis doesnt give him a chance to have any last words, just swings the sword and is done with it. We get rid of a useless character and Stannis gain respect with the Northern troops, its a win-win.