Hodorific Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 So... for those of you not new, let us newbies go here a bit.I'm rereading AGoT and was slapped in the face with the flowers. Jon has a dream with him laurel-ed in blue roses. When the Dragon won the tourney, he pissed off Robert by laying blue roses in Ned's sister's lap (a little heavy handed... putting the symbolic Jon in her belly). WEAK SPOILERLater in the series, Dany has a dream about a blue flower growing in the wall. Case closed for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Wun Wun Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Jon has a dream where he is covered in blue flowers? What part of the book does that happen? I don't remember it.Anyway, I too have always thought that the blue rose in Dany's vision is symbolic of Jon, because I buy into the R+L=J theories. I can't imagine who else it could be referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I believe in the theory as well, but here is a bit of trivia.In the book Martin makes Lyannas favorite flower the "Winter" rose, which happens to be blue, we can surmise that Rhaegar planned the winter roses for Lyannas crown, (pretty confident he'd win I'd say), because why would this tourney beyond the lands of Winter, (the North) have for it's laurel wreath, the "Winter" roses, or blue roses?The trivia:Two different meanings for the blue rose, and I'm paraphrasing:1. "Blue roses symbolize mystery, or something desired but unattainable.An individual experiencing unrequited love could present a blue rose to his/her object of affection."2. "Something of a fairytale. The meaning of this rose is unattainable and impossible. This is not a good gift to give someone you want a longterm relationship with."Now Martin may have used the blue rose to symbolize the imagry of "Winter," as you can associate blue with ice, but Martin could also have it be a double meaning, which was the mystery and unattainability of Lyanna, perhaps by both men.OR, maybe her circumstances made her unattainable by both men.Rhaegar: He's married with children, and she is betrothed to another, so physically she is unavailableRobert: For Robert, she is emotionally unavailable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodorific Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is driving me crazy. I didn't mark the page, and now I can't find it. I thought it was Jon's dream, but maybe it was someone else's. But Jon had a necklace of blue flowers. Damn, I hope it wasn't my dream, I may be spending too much time on this series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is driving me crazy. I didn't mark the page, and now I can't find it. I thought it was Jon's dream, but maybe it was someone else's. But Jon had a necklace of blue flowers. Damn, I hope it wasn't my dream, I may be spending too much time on this series.I don't remember a dream where Jon was wearing a lei of blue flowers, however, I am a notorious speed reader.If you dreamed it, don't feel bad.It's review time at work, and I dreamed that my Supervisor was Caitlyn! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinwesteros Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 This is driving me crazy. I didn't mark the page, and now I can't find it. I thought it was Jon's dream, but maybe it was someone else's. But Jon had a necklace of blue flowers. Damn, I hope it wasn't my dream, I may be spending too much time on this series.Not to worry -- I started the series last week in October and had finished all 5 books by mid-January, racing through to find out what happened next. Consequently, along with the many things I can't remember clearly are the ones I CAN remember clearly but just can't find again, no matter how diligently I search, like you. I KNEW I'd seen Stone Hedge on a map somewhere in the Trident region but looked over and over every single map I'd ever seen online or had printed out and couldn't find it (when I first glanced at it I remember thinking it said Stonehenge, thus remembered that on second look it was Stone Hedge instead). It wasn't until today, when I discovered that wonderful Illustrated map that OiL had done of Westeros that I saw, sure enough, there's Stone Hedge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodorific Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 I am just shocked how much I missed on my first read through. Thanks to this forum, I now pause at the end of each chapter to reflect and make sure to re-read any paragraph that I "missed" by following my Monkey of the Mind down a tangential trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I think that the blue flowers always represent Jon. Rhaegar giving them to Lyanna is him giving her a son (Jon) the image Dany has of a blue flower growing out of a wall is obviously Jon Snow at the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodorific Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Agreed... I mean he laid crown of blue roses in her lap. Jeebus, any more clear and it would have gone, "he knocked the broad up." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casperjd2 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 In the house of the Undead Dany also sees rhaegar in a window with a female and a baby boy. He tells her that his is a song of ice and fire, he is the Prince that was promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 In the house of the Undead Dany also sees rhaegar in a window with a female and a baby boy. He tells her that his is a song of ice and fire, he is the Prince that was promised.Martin clarified in an interview that the woman was definitely Elia, but yes, at first read before the interview, it made you think it was Lyanna, and the baby, Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 ^ That passage in ACoK was when I first realized R+L=J, but it makes more sense now that he was with Elia & Griff (haha maybe not).I'm not sure about the theory anymore, though. I feel like it would've been revealed already, but then again, you would have thought Winter would be in full force and Dany would have landed in Westeros already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 ^ That passage in ACoK was when I first realized R+L=J, but it makes more sense now that he was with Elia & Griff (haha maybe not).I'm not sure about the theory anymore, though. I feel like it would've been revealed already, but then again, you would have thought Winter would be in full force and Dany would have landed in Westeros already.Just in my humble opinion, when I read that, my feeling was that that vision was pivotal and he was telling her either he needed another wife, (and of course he already had Lyanna in mind), and would have to put her aside, or he was just going to take Lyanna as another wife, whether anyone liked it, or not.If it is an accurate vision, then at that point, Rhaegar knows Elia is barren, (the Maesters told him she would bear no more children, not if she tried again she would die), so I think his birth injured her beyond the thought of even attempting to try again, so prophesy aside, he did have a succession arguement that validated him taking another wife, because he couldn't just have one Heir as Aegon could die.I do believe Jon is their son, but in the off chance he ends up being someone entirely unexpected, there will still most likely be a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vogorroswhore Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I do believe Jon is their son, but in the off chance he ends up being someone entirely unexpected, there will still most likely be a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. :)OMG, maybe Aegon is really dead as described at the hand of Gregor Clegane, and Young Griff/"Aegon" is really Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard!!!! And he's faking as Aegon because he's baseborn.Or, nah, it's probably Jon Snow. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 OMG, maybe Aegon is really dead as described at the hand of Gregor Clegane, and Young Griff/"Aegon" is really Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard!!!! And he's faking as Aegon because he's baseborn.Or, nah, it's probably Jon Snow. :)IMO, I think that Aegon is a Dragon- just not Rhaegars.I tend to think he is a Blackfyre from the Dunk and Egg Lore.Note Bloodravens re-appearance, and ironically, Jon would be Rhaegars legitimate Heir which would again pit a trueborn Targ. against a Blackfyre Pretender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaPrevails Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 This is driving me crazy. I didn't mark the page, and now I can't find it. I thought it was Jon's dream, but maybe it was someone else's. But Jon had a necklace of blue flowers. Damn, I hope it wasn't my dream, I may be spending too much time on this series.HTH...In AGoT, when Ned confronts Cersei about the incest and meets her in the garden, Cersei talks about Robert whispering Lyanna’s name on their wedding night; Ned thinks of pale blue roses, “…and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”’, he said to Cersei.Then, Ned Stark has a dream in AGoT, around the time when Robert is gored by the boar, (Eddard POV, ch. 47) of walking through the crypts at Winterfell “…as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all. he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood….” Perhaps that’s the dream you thought Jon had?When Ned is in the black cells, he also has a dream/memory of grasping the blue roses at the tourney and his sister whispering “Promise me, Ned” from “her bed of blood.”I’ve read a bit about R+L=J on this forum and find the theory intriguing…the more I reread, the more I see; I’m also guilty of reading all five existing books in quick succession and too quickly to truly appreciate the nuances. I’m really savoring the re-reads, and all the terrific info in these forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNG LYANNA Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I believe in the theory as well, but here is a bit of trivia.In the book Martin makes Lyannas favorite flower the "Winter" rose, which happens to be blue, we can surmise that Rhaegar planned the winter roses for Lyannas crown, (pretty confident he'd win I'd say), because why would this tourney beyond the lands of Winter, (the North) have for it's laurel wreath, the "Winter" roses, or blue roses?The trivia:Two different meanings for the blue rose, and I'm paraphrasing:1. "Blue roses symbolize mystery, or something desired but unattainable.An individual experiencing unrequited love could present a blue rose to his/her object of affection."2. "Something of a fairytale. The meaning of this rose is unattainable and impossible. This is not a good gift to give someone you want a longterm relationship with."Now Martin may have used the blue rose to symbolize the imagry of "Winter," as you can associate blue with ice, but Martin could also have it be a double meaning, which was the mystery and unattainability of Lyanna, perhaps by both men.OR, maybe her circumstances made her unattainable by both men.Rhaegar: He's married with children, and she is betrothed to another, so physically she is unavailableRobert: For Robert, she is emotionally unavailable.I just wanted to add that I also looked up the symbolism for blue roses after re-reading the visions Dany had & the website I found mentioned the above meanings but also included that blue roses could be symbolic for royal blood, which would also fit the R+L theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I just wanted to add that I also looked up the symbolism for blue roses after re-reading the visions Dany had & the website I found mentioned the above meanings but also included that blue roses could be symbolic for royal blood, which would also fit the R+L theory.Yes, "regal majesty." :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giants bane Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 On this site the citadel has a very solid argument for R+L=J. It breaks down the time line and about where everybody was during Jon's conception and how damn near imposoble it is for Jon to be anybody else's child but lyanna's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonstar Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Just did a kindle powered search for the term blue rose in aGoT and only found two instances both involving only Eddard. The first is during his confrontation w Cersei and the second is in a dream he had where Lyannas statue is garlanded in blue roses and weeps blood and the words promise me. Couldn't locate the passage about Jon dreaming of blue roses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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