Blue Roses

[Hodorific]

So... for those of you not new, let us newbies go here a bit.

I'm rereading AGoT and was slapped in the face with the flowers. Jon has a dream with him laurel-ed in blue roses. When the Dragon won the tourney, he pissed off Robert by laying blue roses in Ned's sister's lap (a little heavy handed... putting the symbolic Jon in her belly).

WEAK SPOILER

Later in the series, Dany has a dream about a blue flower growing in the wall. Case closed for me.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Jon has a dream where he is covered in blue flowers? What part of the book does that happen? I don't remember it.

Anyway, I too have always thought that the blue rose in Dany's vision is symbolic of Jon, because I buy into the R+L=J theories. I can't imagine who else it could be referring to.

[Alia of the knife]

I believe in the theory as well, but here is a bit of trivia.

In the book Martin makes Lyannas favorite flower the "Winter" rose, which happens to be blue, we can surmise that Rhaegar planned the winter roses for Lyannas crown, (pretty confident he'd win I'd say), because why would this tourney beyond the lands of Winter, (the North) have for it's laurel wreath, the "Winter" roses, or blue roses?

The trivia:

Two different meanings for the blue rose, and I'm paraphrasing:

1. "Blue roses symbolize mystery, or something desired but unattainable.

An individual experiencing unrequited love could present a blue rose to his/her object of affection."

2. "Something of a fairytale. The meaning of this rose is unattainable and impossible. This is not a good gift to give someone you want a longterm relationship with."

Now Martin may have used the blue rose to symbolize the imagry of "Winter," as you can associate blue with ice, but Martin could also have it be a double meaning, which was the mystery and unattainability of Lyanna, perhaps by both men.

OR, maybe her circumstances made her unattainable by both men.

Rhaegar: He's married with children, and she is betrothed to another, so physically she is unavailable

Robert: For Robert, she is emotionally unavailable.

[Hodorific]

This is driving me crazy. I didn't mark the page, and now I can't find it. I thought it was Jon's dream, but maybe it was someone else's. But Jon had a necklace of blue flowers. Damn, I hope it wasn't my dream, I may be spending too much time on this series.

[Alia of the knife]

This is driving me crazy. I didn't mark the page, and now I can't find it. I thought it was Jon's dream, but maybe it was someone else's. But Jon had a necklace of blue flowers. Damn, I hope it wasn't my dream, I may be spending too much time on this series.

I don't remember a dream where Jon was wearing a lei of blue flowers, however, I am a notorious speed reader.

If you dreamed it, don't feel bad.

It's review time at work, and I dreamed that my Supervisor was Caitlyn! :P

[lostinwesteros]

This is driving me crazy. I didn't mark the page, and now I can't find it. I thought it was Jon's dream, but maybe it was someone else's. But Jon had a necklace of blue flowers. Damn, I hope it wasn't my dream, I may be spending too much time on this series.

Not to worry -- I started the series last week in October and had finished all 5 books by mid-January, racing through to find out what happened next. Consequently, along with the many things I can't remember clearly are the ones I CAN remember clearly but just can't find again, no matter how diligently I search, like you. I KNEW I'd seen Stone Hedge on a map somewhere in the Trident region but looked over and over every single map I'd ever seen online or had printed out and couldn't find it (when I first glanced at it I remember thinking it said Stonehenge, thus remembered that on second look it was Stone Hedge instead). It wasn't until today, when I discovered that wonderful Illustrated map that OiL had done of Westeros that I saw, sure enough, there's Stone Hedge.

[Hodorific]

I am just shocked how much I missed on my first read through. Thanks to this forum, I now pause at the end of each chapter to reflect and make sure to re-read any paragraph that I "missed" by following my Monkey of the Mind down a tangential trail.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I think that the blue flowers always represent Jon. Rhaegar giving them to Lyanna is him giving her a son (Jon) the image Dany has of a blue flower growing out of a wall is obviously Jon Snow at the wall.

[Hodorific]

Agreed... I mean he laid crown of blue roses in her lap. Jeebus, any more clear and it would have gone, "he knocked the broad up."

[Casperjd2]

In the house of the Undead Dany also sees rhaegar in a window with a female and a baby boy. He tells her that his is a song of ice and fire, he is the Prince that was promised.

[Alia of the knife]

In the house of the Undead Dany also sees rhaegar in a window with a female and a baby boy. He tells her that his is a song of ice and fire, he is the Prince that was promised.

Martin clarified in an interview that the woman was definitely Elia, but yes, at first read before the interview, it made you think it was Lyanna, and the baby, Jon.

[Bolivar]

^ That passage in ACoK was when I first realized R+L=J, but it makes more sense now that he was with Elia & Griff (haha maybe not).

I'm not sure about the theory anymore, though. I feel like it would've been revealed already, but then again, you would have thought Winter would be in full force and Dany would have landed in Westeros already.

[Alia of the knife]

^ That passage in ACoK was when I first realized R+L=J, but it makes more sense now that he was with Elia & Griff (haha maybe not).

I'm not sure about the theory anymore, though. I feel like it would've been revealed already, but then again, you would have thought Winter would be in full force and Dany would have landed in Westeros already.

Just in my humble opinion, when I read that, my feeling was that that vision was pivotal and he was telling her either he needed another wife, (and of course he already had Lyanna in mind), and would have to put her aside, or he was just going to take Lyanna as another wife, whether anyone liked it, or not.

If it is an accurate vision, then at that point, Rhaegar knows Elia is barren, (the Maesters told him she would bear no more children, not if she tried again she would die), so I think his birth injured her beyond the thought of even attempting to try again, so prophesy aside, he did have a succession arguement that validated him taking another wife, because he couldn't just have one Heir as Aegon could die.

I do believe Jon is their son, but in the off chance he ends up being someone entirely unexpected, there will still most likely be a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. :)

[vogorroswhore]

I do believe Jon is their son, but in the off chance he ends up being someone entirely unexpected, there will still most likely be a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. :)

OMG, maybe Aegon is really dead as described at the hand of Gregor Clegane, and Young Griff/"Aegon" is really Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard!!!! And he's faking as Aegon because he's baseborn.

Or, nah, it's probably Jon Snow. :)

[Alia of the knife]

OMG, maybe Aegon is really dead as described at the hand of Gregor Clegane, and Young Griff/"Aegon" is really Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard!!!! And he's faking as Aegon because he's baseborn.

Or, nah, it's probably Jon Snow. :)

IMO, I think that Aegon is a Dragon- just not Rhaegars.

I tend to think he is a Blackfyre from the Dunk and Egg Lore.

Note Bloodravens re-appearance, and ironically, Jon would be Rhaegars legitimate Heir which would again pit a trueborn Targ. against a Blackfyre Pretender.

[AryaPrevails]

This is driving me crazy. I didn't mark the page, and now I can't find it. I thought it was Jon's dream, but maybe it was someone else's. But Jon had a necklace of blue flowers. Damn, I hope it wasn't my dream, I may be spending too much time on this series.

HTH...

In AGoT, when Ned confronts Cersei about the incest and meets her in the garden, Cersei talks about Robert whispering Lyanna’s name on their wedding night; Ned thinks of pale blue roses, “…and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”’, he said to Cersei.

Then, Ned Stark has a dream in AGoT, around the time when Robert is gored by the boar, (Eddard POV, ch. 47) of walking through the crypts at Winterfell “…as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all. he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood….” Perhaps that’s the dream you thought Jon had?

When Ned is in the black cells, he also has a dream/memory of grasping the blue roses at the tourney and his sister whispering “Promise me, Ned” from “her bed of blood.”

I’ve read a bit about R+L=J on this forum and find the theory intriguing…the more I reread, the more I see; I’m also guilty of reading all five existing books in quick succession and too quickly to truly appreciate the nuances. I’m really savoring the re-reads, and all the terrific info in these forums!

[YUNG LYANNA]

I believe in the theory as well, but here is a bit of trivia.

In the book Martin makes Lyannas favorite flower the "Winter" rose, which happens to be blue, we can surmise that Rhaegar planned the winter roses for Lyannas crown, (pretty confident he'd win I'd say), because why would this tourney beyond the lands of Winter, (the North) have for it's laurel wreath, the "Winter" roses, or blue roses?

The trivia:

Two different meanings for the blue rose, and I'm paraphrasing:

1. "Blue roses symbolize mystery, or something desired but unattainable.

An individual experiencing unrequited love could present a blue rose to his/her object of affection."

2. "Something of a fairytale. The meaning of this rose is unattainable and impossible. This is not a good gift to give someone you want a longterm relationship with."

Now Martin may have used the blue rose to symbolize the imagry of "Winter," as you can associate blue with ice, but Martin could also have it be a double meaning, which was the mystery and unattainability of Lyanna, perhaps by both men.

OR, maybe her circumstances made her unattainable by both men.

Rhaegar: He's married with children, and she is betrothed to another, so physically she is unavailable

Robert: For Robert, she is emotionally unavailable.

I just wanted to add that I also looked up the symbolism for blue roses after re-reading the visions Dany had & the website I found mentioned the above meanings but also included that blue roses could be symbolic for royal blood, which would also fit the R+L theory.

[Alia of the knife]

I just wanted to add that I also looked up the symbolism for blue roses after re-reading the visions Dany had & the website I found mentioned the above meanings but also included that blue roses could be symbolic for royal blood, which would also fit the R+L theory.

Yes, "regal majesty." :)

[Giants bane]

On this site the citadel has a very solid argument for R+L=J. It breaks down the time line and about where everybody was during Jon's conception and how damn near imposoble it is for Jon to be anybody else's child but lyanna's

[Dragonstar]

Just did a kindle powered search for the term blue rose in aGoT and only found two instances both involving only Eddard. The first is during his confrontation w Cersei and the second is in a dream he had where Lyannas statue is garlanded in blue roses and weeps blood and the words promise me. Couldn't locate the passage about Jon dreaming of blue roses