Blue Roses

[theGhostOfHarrenhall]

This is probably starting to get off topic a little, but I thought I would add my thoughts about some of the things mentioned earlier in this thread.

1. When it mentions about Rhaegar reading a book one day and then becoming a knight, I believe that he read about the The One That Was Promised and believed this was refering to him. This is why he started training in the martial arts.
   
2. This is also probably the reason he lost to Robert. He probably had the belief that he would survive as he was the OTWP. This might have meant that he didn't take the fight as serious as he probably should have.
   
3. Also, in Dunk and Egg, we learn of the strength created in marrying for love. This is the whole premise for the last Dance of Dragons. We have numerous occasions where targaryans having a baby with someone through love, not duty, creates a more powerful dragon(metaphorical). This is how I believe Jon gets his power.
   
4. Lastly, I believe we are supposed to know who Jons mother is. GRRM has pretty much confirmed this.
   

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hi @theGhostOfHarrenhall.

welcome to the forum!

This is probably starting to get off topic a little, but I thought I would add my thoughts about some of the things mentioned earlier in this thread.

1. When it mentions about Rhaegar reading a book one day and then becoming a knight, I believe that he read about the The One That Was Promised and believed this was refering to him. This is why he started training in the martial arts.
   

Actually, he wasn't doing much else but reading books. We are told that he did in fact stumble over the prophecy called The Prince That Was Promised (not The One...) and that he thought that must have been he...

2. This is also probably the reason he lost to Robert. He probably had the belief that he would survive as he was the OTWP. This might have meant that he didn't take the fight as serious as he probably should have.

No, he had earlier changed his mind about himself as being TPTWP. We learn first in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying ones that Rhaegar thought his son by Elia, Aegon was The Prince That Was Promised and his song was the Song Of Ice And Fire. Later Maester Aemon tells Samwell the same.

3. Also, in Dunk and Egg, we learn of the strength created in marrying for love. This is the whole premise for the last Dance of Dragons. We have numerous occasions where targaryans having a baby with someone through love, not duty, creates a more powerful dragon(metaphorical). This is how I believe Jon gets his power.

Uh, where in Dunk and Egg? Can you point out the story and what happens, that makes you think that way?

4. Lastly, I believe we are supposed to know who Jons mother is. GRRM has pretty much confirmed this.

Not that I know of. Can you point me to where and how he did that?

[Julia H.]

For me, it's agonizing to continue to believe in R + L = J when there are people out there who are trying to disprove the theory, and they have every right to do so, but I hate that it puts doubt in my head. :( I don't want to doubt who I believe Jon really is.

And we all know G.R.R.M doesn't go online reading the theories people have of his characters, so if Jon really turns out to be who he is, I will be very happy that it came out of his own story creation though most of us are already firm believers in R + L = J.

I'm just scared I am believing in a theory, and what if it turns out to be wrong? :( Then again, all the subtle symbolism we've been given about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna is definitely something that can't be ignored...

I'm convinced that R+L=J, and I think GRRM put the clues there so we can figure it out. It probably means he has some other surprise in store for us. It is possible that the consequences of the revelation will not be what readers expect at first glance, for example. I have a feeling that there will be a twist somewhere, but Jon is definitely L+R's son, I'm quite sure of that.

The Harrenhal Tourney was in the Year of the False Spring. Winter (blue) roses were probably the only roses blooming at the time.

Good idea, but we also know that Lyanna “loved the scent of winter roses” and it was easy to associate the flowers of winter with the daughter of Winterfell anyway. If blue roses were to be used for the crown anyway (because of the season), it may have inspired Rhaegar to win and to use the occasion to declare his love for Lyanna. But I don't put it past him to have a crown privately made for Lyanna in advance, hoping that he would win and would have a chance to give it to her. If he had not won, the rare flowers would have been wasted, but Rhaegar was a royal prince, he could afford to be a little extravagant.

In reading this thread, I idly wondered about blue roses so I searched some sites to learn more about them. From a site called Roses for Love, I found this statement about the receiver of blue roses: A truly wonderful personality, almost chimera-like (underlining mine) is what the blue rose says about the receiver.

A chimera in genetics, is an individual who has genetically distinct cells. A chimera may have two different blood types, or even male and female sex organs. Wikipedia tells me that ... Normally, chimerism is not visible on casual inspection; however, it has been detected in the course of proving parentage.

I am not a geneticist or a botanist but the idea of Jon being both the song of fire and the song of ice springs to my mind immediately.

Intriguing.

I've noticed this:

When Ned thinks or dreams of blue roses, they are usually associated with blood. Of course, blood is a reference to Lyanna's death, but perhaps it can also refer to the blue roses being associated with Lyanna's blood, meaning Lyanna's child, a child of her own blood.

In Ned's dream the thorns of Lyanna's crown hurt his fingers and he sees “the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers...”. This is Ned's blood. Of course, the image means that Ned suffered, too, but perhaps it can have an additional meaning on a different level. Ned tells Catelyn “He (Jon) is my blood”. For Ned, the blue roses mean Lyanna's blood and his own blood, Jon Snow.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

In Ned's dream the thorns of Lyanna's crown hurt his fingers and he sees “the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers...”. This is Ned's blood. Of course, the image means that Ned suffered, too, but perhaps it can have an additional meaning on a different level. Ned tells Catelyn “He (Jon) is my blood”. For Ned, the blue roses mean Lyanna's blood and his own blood, Jon Snow.

There's a nice find and a valid interpretation!