442 replies to this topic

[Angalin]

Last posts from the previous thread:

Dragonfish, on 22 January 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Brandon was dead before Jon was conceived. We know this because George said that Jon was born about 8-9 months before Daenerys, putting his birth at around the Sack of King's Landing, which itself was close to a year into the war. That is why we don't seriously entertain the possibility that Brandon is his father. I don't blame you for not knowing this about the timeline, though, since none of this info is in the books themselves.

Ghost714, on 22 January 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I understand why Ned would raise Jon, but why would Ned have to claim Jon as his own if this is true? Why would Ned have to lie and say he cheated on Cat, if Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara??? It makes sense that Ned would lie about cheating on Cat, and about being Jon's father, in the case of R+L=J.
But I can't see how it would make sense in the case of B+A=J.
And all of this is without regards to the timeline (which the timeline alone makes it impossible)

Alia of the knife, on 22 January 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Exactly.

He could just be the dutiful Ned everyone knows, and is taking responsibility, (yet again), for something else that was "meant for Brandon."

Of course for Caitlyn, her situation doesn't change, and she's haunted by Ashara again.


Personally, I do hope that Brandons character is fleshed out more.

Edited by Angalin, 22 January 2012 - 11:28 PM.

[Rose of Winterfell]

Catelyn's situation would change, in that it would remove the only strain on her relationship with Ned. She'd be upset about Brandon having a bastard, but surely she'd get over it, him being dead and all. Even if Ned had wanted to protect Ashara's reputation, and/or take responsibility for what Brandon did, there's no reason 14 years into his marriage when he now knows he can trust her, for him not to tell Catelyn the truth. Only R+L=J really justifies the lie to Catelyn...

[Revan Baratheon]

U know by the time its found out what really happened,after the release of the seventh book,this will be on v.200 .And if u turn out to be wrong then oh what  a waste of 200 threads and 1k replies 1M views...itll be fun to see so many people pissed lol

[Lady Greeneyes]

I think GRRM will change this just to mess with the fans. I don't believe he stays away from all boards and has no clue what we have all guessed.

[ForeverBallin]

I'm betting Aegon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard. Would make him being in the Golden Company ironic and stuff.

[Revan Baratheon]

ForeverBallin, on 23 January 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

I'm betting Aegon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard. Would make him being in the Golden Company ironic and stuff.

More believable than Jon..atleast he has the targ look

[ForeverBallin]

Revan Baratheon, on 23 January 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

More believable than Jon..atleast he has the targ look

Or Jon could take after Lyanna.

[Apple Martini]

ForeverBallin, on 23 January 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

I'm betting Aegon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard. Would make him being in the Golden Company ironic and stuff.

I believe he's said that he doesn't really read fan theories and wouldn't change anything just because some people had figured it out.

Revan Baratheon, on 23 January 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

More believable than Jon..atleast he has the targ look

To which I say, Baelor Breakspear and Rhaenys.

[Revan Baratheon]

Apple Martini, on 23 January 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

To which I say, Baelor Breakspear and Rhaenys.

although i dont remember Rhaenys description..which one is this anyway? There are so many...

[Apple Martini]

Revan Baratheon, on 24 January 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

although i dont remember Rhaenys description..which one is this anyway? There are so many...

Rhaenys was Elia Martell's daughter. She looked like her Dornish mother, even though she's just as much of a Targ as her brother.

[Falrinn]

Lady Greeneyes, on 23 January 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

I think GRRM will change this just to mess with the fans. I don't believe he stays away from all boards and has no clue what we have all guessed.

The problem is then he'd have to ignore the hints he had scattered throughout the books so far.

The biggest one in my opinion is that the Three remaining members of the loyalist Kingsguard were guarding the Tower of Joy and completely disregarding the safety of the apparent Targaryen King, Viserys.

The only logical solution I can figure is that the Targaryen King was not Viserys at all, but Jon Targaryen.  Who was right there at the Tower of Joy, having just been born to Lyanna.  We do know that the Targaryen's practiced polygamy in the past, so it's not impossible for Jon to be the legitimate heir (barring marriage, Rhaegar might of coaxed his father into legitimizing any children he had by Lyanna).

[Ghost714]

Revan Baratheon, on 23 January 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

More believable than Jon..atleast he has the targ look

Just because Jon does not look Targaryen, doesn't mean he isn't the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
I am referring to this quote,

The hedge knight 
Page # 23

He does not look a Targaryen in truth, with that dark hair. Dunk said as much to Egg.
“It’s said he favors his mother,” the boy reminded him. “She was a Dornish princess

So Jon could easily favor Lyanna's 'Stark look", over Rhaegar's "Targaryen look". From the quote above it is very clear that the "Targaryen look", is not always dominant.
I am really getting tired of people using that argument, as "proof" against R+L=J. I believe GRRM put that information in The Hedge Knight for a reason.

And as for GRRM changing his work, because fans figured out the "secret"
Here is a link to an hour long video, of an interview with GRRM.

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

In this interview he specifically said, that he would not change something just because fans figured it out. And he explains how it would be worse for the story if he changes "the big secret", to something random, because there would be no foreshadowing to hint towards the "changed secret". And he said if you change it, then you make all the previous foreshadowing mean nothing. So thats why he thinks it best to just stay away from fan forums. (this all pretty much in my own words, and it's explained much better in the video, so I suggest to watch it for yourselves, if you haven't already seen it)
In short GRRM won't change the story, just because fans figured it out.

[FanTasy]

Falrinn, on 24 January 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

The problem is then he'd have to ignore the hints he had scattered throughout the books so far.

The biggest one in my opinion is that the Three remaining members of the loyalist Kingsguard were guarding the Tower of Joy and completely disregarding the safety of the apparent Targaryen King, Viserys.

The only logical solution I can figure is that the Targaryen King was not Viserys at all, but Jon Targaryen.  Who was right there at the Tower of Joy, having just been born to Lyanna.  We do know that the Targaryen's practiced polygamy in the past, so it's not impossible for Jon to be the legitimate heir (barring marriage, Rhaegar might of coaxed his father into legitimizing any children he had by Lyanna).

Yes, very possible! But there'could be another reason why the three Kingsguard were there - if they were guarding Baby Aegon.
After ADWD this can't be excluded,
I have not found conclusive evidence in the text that Baby Jon was at the Tower of Joy. Ned could have picked him up somewhere else.
Lyanna and her room filled with roses and with a bed of blood probably was at the Tower of Joy, but I have found no conclusive evidence that the events of the fight with the Kingsguard were at the same time as when Ned found Lyanna.

It fits in the construct of R+L=J though, which I believe is true.
But there are other possibilities.

Edited by FanTasy, 24 January 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Ygrain]

Besides, planting carefully all those hints and foreshadowings would make no sense if he got pissed because the readers figured it out - it's in fact, his reward for doing it well. The readers are interested enough to read the novels a couple of times, not to miss out on any, they spend their time thinking about what they have read and they are able to grasp his train of thoughts - these are the sings of a well-done job. And, the most basic rule says, you don't poke things which work.

[Westerosi Dude]

I finished reading the series, and stumbled upon this theory on here a few days ago and I must say that it is an amazing theory which I hope it true. But I kinda wish that I'd worked it out for myself through re-reading the series (which I plan to do either this Summer or definetly before Book 6 is released). No doubt this has been asked before but:

How can Jon become king, since he has joined the Night's Watch, and as Maester Aemon said, they renounce all claims to the throne upon joining?

Actually, I just thought of a way around this - if the Others are what cause the years-long winters, and they are defeated at the end of Book 7, then maybe the Night's Watch will be disbanded since there is no longer the threat from the Others, the Wildlings have been integrated into the North, and without the long winters the Wall will eventually melt? Again, I'm sure this has been thought of before.

[LongclawGirl]

Here's a thought on Jon being able to become king without breaking his oath......

He is sworn to the Night's Watch until his death.  At the end of DWD, Jon is "killed" by other NW members.  He "dies" and comes back to life as AA/TPWWP (however this happens....he wargs into Ghost and Melissandre revives him, a prophecy is fulfilled, etc....not sure how it will happen, but I feel pretty strongly that it will).  Technically, he has fulfilled his oath to the NW, as he is a different person now.
Just my opinion......

[Ghost714]

I really don't think the purpose of R+L=J, is to make Jon a King. It's just to late in the game for him to become a serious contender for the Iron Throne.
It could be possible if Danaerys wins the Iron Throne, and if she were to find out about Jon being the son of Rhaegar, then I could see her wanting Jon to be her King, as one of the heads of the Dragon.
I could maybe see Jon becoming King of the North via Robb's will.
But to me, I believe the purpose of R+L=J, is to make Jon Azor Ahai, or The Prince that was Promised, or at minimum one of the three heads of the Dragon(Jon could be one of the 3 heads of the Dragon, while also being AA, or TPTWP)


Ya this is my personal belief, but I don't think Jon would care about being King, at least not until the Others are defeated. Jon knows that nothing else matters, besides stopping the Others, at this time. The only way I can see Jon becoming King before the Others are taken care of, is if he becomes King in the North, to rally everyone together, and then go fight the Others.
But that's the only way I can see Jon being the King of anything before the fight with the Others.

[Ladywhiskers]

FanTasy, on 24 January 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

Yes, very possible! But there'could be another reason why the three Kingsguard were there - if they were guarding Baby Aegon.
After ADWD this can't be excluded,
I have not found conclusive evidence in the text that Baby Jon was at the Tower of Joy. Ned could have picked him up somewhere else.
Lyanna and her room filled with roses and with a bed of blood probably was at the Tower of Joy, but I have found no conclusive evidence that the events of the fight with the Kingsguard were at the same time as when Ned found Lyanna.

It fits in the construct of R+L=J though, which I believe is true.
But there are other possibilities.

Don't you think that if Lyanna's bed was still bloody and she was still lying in it, that the baby would probably still be there? Seems to me that if they'd had time to remove the baby, (locate a wetnurse, etc....) they'd have had time to change the bed.

[Alia of the knife]

Lady Greeneyes, on 23 January 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

I think GRRM will change this just to mess with the fans. I don't believe he stays away from all boards and has no clue what we have all guessed.

I think he stays away because the theories are overwhelming.
I would.
Sometimes, these blogs, (though I enjoy them), do interfere with the literary perception.

He started writing this book before the internet, and his concern has been that the mystery is ruined for the entire fanbase by the one, or two who guesses it and spreads it, but he by no means is changing his story as that would cause the unraveling of some very intricate storylines.

The Producers of the HBO series have already guessed, and he was quite pleased, so notice the LACK of flashback shots such as the TOJ scenes, because on television it would be glaringly obvious rather than spread out between hundreds of pages and five books.

[FanTasy]

Ladywhiskers, on 24 January 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Don't you think that if Lyanna's bed was still bloody and she was still lying in it, that the baby would probably still be there? Seems to me that if they'd had time to remove the baby, (locate a wetnurse, etc....) they'd have had time to change the bed.

Dunno ... I'm on a re-read watching out for everything related to Rhaegar and Lyanna and specifically for timelines, locatons and connections, who was where when and who said what.
Just noticed that the song that was probably made about the affair is known by Asha, she tells Theon about this in ACOK.