From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa II

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Foreshadowing Sansa – AGOT and ACOK Sansa I

Firstly, sorry because this should have gone up on Monday…..life’s been a little hectic.

As Brashcandy has given her excellent synopsis of ACOK Sansa I, I have also added in something vaguely in line with foreshadowing regarding her and also some of the other characters, from chapters we haven’t discussed and possible foreshadowing regarding Sansa there.

Anyway foreshadowing points:

1.The Death of a Lady

In AGOT it is heavily implied that the Direwolves are important to the Stark children. The death of Lady therefore has several possible foreshadowing elements for Sansa. Ned notes how all the Direwolves’ names fit them perfectly and also fit the children they belong to. Lady, it the smallest and most gentle of the Direwolves, reflecting Sansa’s position as the gentlest of her siblings and possibly the least wolf like. Both girl and wolf are Ladies first and foremost.

Lady’s death however seems to hint that Sansa could become permanently separated from the Stark side of her self or that the Lady she was once going to be, has been sacrificed. Also unlike the other Starks she now no longer has her “wolf” to protect her.

This connects to the throw away line by King Robert,

“Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it”

However no replacement pup is found and instead we see Sansa interact with Sandor Clegane, known as The Hound. Although the nature of the relationship is not hinted at, this line could certainly foreshadow Sandor Clegane taking Lady’s place as important to Sansa’s arc. She has already mistaken his hand for that of her father’s.

2. Two Sides of the Same Coin: Cersei and Sansa

Although this points to future chapters and Cersei chapters, even as early as AGOT there seems to be a parallel arc in the development of these two characters. Sansa’s first chapter is pivotal in highlighting how a twist of fate in the same place will and has effected both their lives: namely the fights at the Trident. Both have been set up to marry Princes and both lose their Princes at the same spot in the Trident. Rhaegar is killed by Robert and Arya injures Joff, which turns him against Sansa. The Arya/Joff fight could foreshadow Sansa growing into a similar character arc as Cersei, but succeeding where Cersei failed. Whilst talking to the Queen after Eddard has been arrested, Sansa says

I’ll be a Queen just like you, I promise.

But does this mean she will be exactly like Cersei or that Sansa will be able to become like the Cersei she thought was real: beautiful, loved and powerful.

3. A Gown of Gold: Golden Gowns, Sansa and Cersei

Sansa dreams

That night she dreamt of Jeffery on the throne, with herself seated beside him in a gown of woven gold. She had a crown on her head, and everyone she had ever known came before her, to bend knee and say their courtesies.

We are all aware of the Maggy the Frog Prophecy and the significance of Gold and death to Cersei’s children. However it is also interesting to note that golden gowns do not seem common in the series. Indeed the only references to women wearing completely golden gowns are the following two.

Cersei in ACOK, the morning after the BBW

At the Council table, Queen Cersei shimmered in a cloth-of-gold gown

Olenna Tyrell in ASOS, when she rearranges Sansa’s hairnet at Joff’s wedding.

Lady Olenna Tyrell told Sansa when she tottered up to them in a cloth-of-gold gown

These three instances seem to encompass the idea of Joff’s death and Queens wearing Gold while defeating their enemies, or being paid homage. Did Sansa’s dream foreshadow Joff’s death at the hands of Olenna, or a future date when she will herself be Queen? Or does her wearing a golden gown, herald her own death?

4. A Gown of Gold: Cersei and Sansa 2

Sansa’s dream also contrasts with Cersei’s dream in AFFC.

She dreamt she sat the Iron throne, high above them all. the courtiers were brightly coloured mice below. Great lords and proud ladies knelt before her. Bold young knights laid their swords at her feet and pleaded for her favours, and the queen smiled down at them. Until the dwarf appeared as if from nowhere, pointing at her and howling with laughter. The lords and ladies began to chuckle too, hiding their smiles behind their hands. Only then did the queen realize she was naked. Horrified, she tried to cover herself with her hands. The barbs and blades of the Iron Throne bit into her flesh as she crouched to hide her shame. Blood ran red down her legs, as steel teeth gnawed at her buttocks. When she tried to stand, her foot slipped through a gap in the twisted metal. The more she struggled the more the throne engulfed her, tearing chunks of flesh from her breasts and belly, slicing at her arms and legs until they were slick and red, glistening. And all the while her brother capered below, laughing.

In Cersei’s dream, she is on the Iron Throne and it is her humiliation and perhaps a foreshadowing of her naked walk. In fact her brother laughs as her attempt to sit in the Iron throne destroys her. In Sansa’s dream however, she is seated beside the King, but people bend knee to her. I wondered if this foreshadowed Sansa’s ability to play the game better and accepting a role of consort, but as everyone bent knee to her, then she is really the power behind the throne. Sansa doesn’t want power, but has it.

5. The Troublesome Attire of Sansa Stark

As the dream analysis above shows, dress is important in Sansa’s arc. It is the armour of a Lady as much as courtesy. In AGOT we see find out Sansa has been given a dress be Cersei and Arya ruins it by throwing a blood orange at it. It is later dyed black and she pleads for her father’s life in it. However after the initial ruining, she strips it off and throws it in the cold fireplace (echoing her actions when she later gets her period). Indeed as with the next dress Cersei gives her (for her Wedding to Tyrion) this dress causes her nothing but despair.

Her choice of disposal is also interesting and may in fact be more relevant in ACOK, but already by throwing her dress ruined by

Blood

oranges in the

Fire,

do we see some hint as to her future being connected to a house that might have a motto concerning those two elements?

6. Life is not a song: Songs and Tales

One of Sansa’s major ties is her love of Songs and Tales. Could these in fact be hinting at any future path for her character arc? Those focused on in AGOT are

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield

: Which focuses on a Knight of the KG who kills a dragon, rescues a princess from giants and feels guilt over the people he has killed.

Prince Aemon the Dragonknight

: The KG member who may have had an illicit affair and was the true love of a queen.

Florian and Jonquil

: A homely looking fool who fought as a knight trying to win his love Jonquil.

Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight

: A love story

All Sansa’s favourite stories seem to involve either illicit love, unfulfilled love, trials to rescue maidens and members of the KG or other Knights. Again these could foreshadow a possible romance with her and someone other than a future husband she doesn’t love. Also the Rainbow knight, could reference Brienne as she was part of Renlys’s Rainbow Guard.

7. The Second Monster: Ser Ilyne Payne

Sansa gets creeped out by Ser Ilyne every time she sees him. Could this foreshadow her father’s death, or is there something more to it?

8. The first of many Cloaks for Sansa Stark

When Sansa begs for her father’s life, she kneels on the disguarded cloak of Barristan Selmy. Given the significance of cloaks in Westeros, this again could represent how his cloak represented something that should protect a future Queen, or it could represent that Sansa is being protected by a true KG member. Will Barristan one day be sworn to protect her again? Either way, cloak and clothing and the men who offer her cloaks represent a symbolic role in Sansa’s arc.

9. Wargmaster Sansa: The Deanna Troi of Westeros

Sansa has lost her wolf, but GRRM has said all the Stark children are Wargs to some degree. Sansa seems to have a huge amount of empathy. This lets her connect with people. At one point she thinks she can almost hear the rest of Sandor Clegane’s thoughts, although not in a warg way, but I see what your are driving at type of way.

10. Feeling a bit Peaky? : The Grey Plague

As of ADWD, there has been a lot of speculation over the Grey Plague, a variant of Greyscale. Due to the power of Kindle it appears that (as opposed to greyscale) the grey plague is only mentioned twice in AGOT and both times by Sansa: once when the maids flee from her and then in the court room. It is only mentioned on three other occasions: referenced by Aurane Waters (Yi TI) and Pycelle (Oldtown) in AFFC and once by Illyario in ADWD.

I'm not sure if this is prophetic but with Sansa's possible future connection to Aegon and her current connection to Tyrion (who may have greyscale) this maybe more than coincidence. Or does it hint at a future outbreak in KL, or something else

.

11.

Wish upon a Star: Sometimes wishes do come true

wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw

him

down and cut off his head.

So Sansa wants a hero to cut off Janos Slynt’s head…….4 books later…and we have Jon Snow do that exact thing. However this highlights another interesting point. Both Sansa and Arya have certain wishes and they are slowly but surely turning out to be true. Arya’s death list and Sansa’s wish about Janos Slynt. Certainly this is one of the best pieces of foreshadowing that has come to pass in terms of Sansa.

12. The Savage Giant

Since we have already started our analysis of ACOK, I thought I might as well include this.

“I am only a little lion, child, and I vow, I shall not

savage

you.”

Given the prophecy about Sansa slaying a savage Giant, Tyrion’s nickname from Shae and the comment about savaging, their wedding, etc I think this is the first hint that Sansa may one day kill Tyrion. I know it is almost a given that it is LF, but there is still room for speculation.

[brashcandy]

Excellent discussion on the foreshadowing Rapsie! :) I'll respond more in depth later, but I just wanted to add also with the blood orange splattering on her dress, the suggestion that her experience of maturity/growing up will be painful/bloody (as you noted the blood is linked to her period and she has very similar reactions in both those scenes). We've seen this already come to pass as now she's being subjected to frequent beatings by the KG.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

']

6. Life is not a song: Songs and Tales

One of Sansa’s major ties is her love of Songs and Tales. Could these in fact be hinting at any future path for her character arc? Those focused on in AGOT are

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield

: Which focuses on a Knight of the KG who kills a dragon, rescues a princess from giants and feels guilt over the people he has killed.

Prince Aemon the Dragonknight

: The KG member who may have had an illicit affair and was the true love of a queen.

Florian and Jonquil

: A homely looking fool who fought as a knight trying to win his love Jonquil.

Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight

: A love story

All Sansa’s favourite stories seem to involve either illicit love, unfulfilled love, trials to rescue maidens and members of the KG or other Knights. Again these could foreshadow a possible romance with her and someone other than a future husband she doesn’t love. Also the Rainbow knight, could reference Brienne as she was part of Renlys’s Rainbow Guard.

All of these ideas for possible foreshadowing are really interesting but I think the songs are just songs. The stories focus on illicit love, because they're about courtly love, and courtly love does not take place between married couples. Marriage in feudal society is a legal contract which has absolutely nothing to do with love, though it's certainly possible that it might be a perk or a side-effect if you're lucky. In RL courtly love was a way to engage in an emotional, but often unconsummated, love relationship with someone outside of marriage, and it was idealized and sung about. The famous Arthurian love stories are all in the vein of Naerys and the Dragonknight and Florian and Jonquil. Tristan and Isolde, Lancelot and Guinivere, Romeo and Juliet, the most famous love stories of Medieval and early Rennaissance societies were about affairs or star-crossed lovers, so I think the series' stories are derived from that. Right now I'm also not seeing a detailed love story in Sansa's near future. Sansa's affinity for these songs of courtly love are because that's her nature, she's a romantic, naturally attracted to the love stories, and almost all the love stories are going to be about illicit or inauspicious relationships if our own history is anything to go by.

So Sansa wants a hero to cut off Janos Slynt’s head…….4 books later…and we have Jon Snow do that exact thing. However this highlights another interesting point. Both Sansa and Arya have certain wishes and they are slowly but surely turning out to be true. Arya’s death list and Sansa’s wish about Janos Slynt. Certainly this is one of the best pieces of foreshadowing that has come to pass in terms of Sansa.

The funny thing is that Arya and Sansa have rarely been getting the kind of satisfying personal vengeance that they want. Sansa never got to see Janos Slynt beheaded, probably doesn't even know he's dead, and I will bet everything I own that she'll have no personal hand in the undoing of Illyn Payne. Even Joff dies a horrible death, not because of anything a Stark does, but through the sly planning of an entirely different family working in their own interests, and witnessing his death isn't even that satisfying for Sansa. The ability to exact vengeance is actually very romantic, and never turns out the way you want as any one who's felt that desire would know. It's actually rather amusing to watch people fall, not because of some karmic effect from something they'd done in the past, but because of their persistent stupidity running against someone who isn't going to take their shit. Slynt beheads Ned on the whim of a boy king, against the wishes of the Queen Regent, and the Hand, the people who actually do the planning and the ruling. He thus proves himself to be a self-entitled, sadistic, slimy little snot, but his undoing is not because of the act that earns readers' and Sansa's hatred. It's because he continues to be an ass at the wall, and happens to run up against someone who isn't going to take his crap. Vengeance is all the sweeter in this series because it's so rare. I'm not sure anyone is going to be able to claim the revenge they want, which makes me wonder, who is that giant that Sansa is going to slay? Which brings me to...

Given the prophecy about Sansa slaying a savage Giant, Tyrion’s nickname from Shae and the comment about savaging, their wedding, etc I think this is the first hint that Sansa may one day kill Tyrion. I know it is almost a given that it is LF, but there is still room for speculation.

Yeah, there is definitely room for speculation here. I had always just assumed it would be LF or Robert Strong, but the other day I just had the random thought that Tyrion is the one always described as a giant, by Shae, master Aemon, Jon etc. If Sansa is going to do some killing in a castle of snow, and Winterfell rather than the Eyrie is that castle, it may work out that she kills Tyrion when he tries to claim his "rights" through their marriage that was never annulled. Tyrion being the giant would be ironic because though he didn't exactly abuse Sansa (he did bad things WRT their wedding, I've posted my thoughts on this in other places), she doesn't harbor any emotions for him, negative or otherwise. If he's the giant she slays, it will work out the way it seems always to work in this series: he'll want something that she's not willing to give, and they'll clash in defense of their respective interests.

[brashcandy]

All of these ideas for possible foreshadowing are really interesting but I think the songs are just songs. The stories focus on illicit love, because they're about courtly love, and courtly love does not take place between married couples. Marriage in feudal society is a legal contract which has absolutely nothing to do with love, though it's certainly possible that it might be a perk or a side-effect if you're lucky. In RL courtly love was a way to engage in an emotional, but often unconsummated, love relationship with someone outside of marriage, and it was idealized and sung about. The famous Arthurian love stories are all in the vein of Naerys and the Dragonknight and Florian and Jonquil. Tristan and Isolde, Lancelot and Guinivere, Romeo and Juliet, the most famous love stories of Medieval and early Rennaissance societies were about affairs or star-crossed lovers, so I think the series' stories are derived from that. Right now I'm also not seeing a detailed love story in Sansa's near future. Sansa's affinity for these songs of courtly love are because that's her nature, she's a romantic, naturally attracted to the love stories, and almost all the love stories are going to be about illicit or inauspicious relationships if our own history is anything to go by.

I have to disagree with you here a bit. Whilst I accept your point that most stories of courtly romance - especially those that would be appealing for the long haul - would concern illicit romance, I don't think it can be easily underestimated when it comes to Sansa's arc. It's not a coincidence that Joff compares himself to Aegon the Unworthy, whilst Sansa esteems Aemon the Dragonknight. Then we have the referencing of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, someone whose life and times sounds eerily similar to that of Sandor Clegane. Florian and Jonquil is another song that has special significance for Sansa, in that she does end up getting her "fool", but it's in the form of a real drunk fool, Ser Dontos. So whilst Sansa may enjoy these stories, GRRM is making it clear that they all have special relevance to her in particular.

As for not seeing a detailed love story in her future, Revenge, you need to pay closer attention ;) There is something developing between her and the Hound right before our eyes. What did you think of how they played off each other in Sansa I of ACOK?

The funny thing is that Arya and Sansa have rarely been getting the kind of satisfying personal vengeance that they want. Sansa never got to see Janos Slynt beheaded, probably doesn't even know he's dead, and I will bet everything I own that she'll have no personal hand in the undoing of Illyn Payne. Even Joff dies a horrible death, not because of anything a Stark does, but through the sly planning of an entirely different family working in their own interests, and witnessing his death isn't even that satisfying for Sansa. The ability to exact vengeance is actually very romantic, and never turns out the way you want as any one who's felt that desire would know. It's actually rather amusing to watch people fall, not because of some karmic effect from something they'd done in the past, but because of their persistent stupidity running against someone who isn't going to take their shit. Slynt beheads Ned on the whim of a boy king, against the wishes of the Queen Regent, and the Hand, the people who actually do the planning and the ruling. He thus proves himself to be a self-entitled, sadistic, slimy little snot, but his undoing is not because of the act that earns readers' and Sansa's hatred. It's because he continues to be an ass at the wall, and happens to run up against someone who isn't going to take his crap. Vengeance is all the sweeter in this series because it's so rare. I'm not sure anyone is going to be able to claim the revenge they want, which makes me wonder, who is that giant that Sansa is going to slay?

Again, I disagree :) Joff may have been offed by another family, but it was Sansa's testimony that probably convinced Marg and the Queen of Thorns more than anything else LF told them at Highgarden. And Sansa carried the poison in her hair. She may not have been involved in the planning to murder Joff, but it was sweet irony that she not provided the weapon, but that it was awful treatment of her that doomed him.

Which brings me to...

Yeah, there is definitely room for speculation here. I had always just assumed it would be LF or Robert Strong, but the other day I just had the random thought that Tyrion is the one always described as a giant, by Shae, master Aemon, Jon etc. If Sansa is going to do some killing in a castle of snow, and Winterfell rather than the Eyrie is that castle, it may work out that she kills Tyrion when he tries to claim his "rights" through their marriage that was never annulled. Tyrion being the giant would be ironic because though he didn't exactly abuse Sansa (he did bad things WRT their wedding, I've posted my thoughts on this in other places), she doesn't harbor any emotions for him, negative or otherwise. If he's the giant she slays, it will work out the way it seems always to work in this series: he'll want something that she's not willing to give, and they'll clash in defense of their respective interests.

Yes; more and more I'm leaning towards thinking Tyrion could be the savage giant. His arc after ADWD seems to be taking a darker turn, so it could bring him into conflict with Sansa, and Tyrion hasn't forgotten how he was mistreated in the Vale.

[Grail King]

I have to disagree with you here a bit. Whilst I accept your point that most stories of courtly romance - especially those that would be appealing for the long haul - would concern illicit romance, I don't think it can be easily underestimated when it comes to Sansa's arc. It's not a coincidence that Joff compares himself to Aegon the Unworthy, whilst Sansa esteems Aemon the Dragonknight. Then we have the referencing of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, someone whose life and times sounds eerily similar to that of Sandor Clegane. Florian and Jonquil is another song that has special significance for Sansa, in that she does end up getting her "fool", but it's in the form of a real drunk fool, Ser Dontos. So whilst Sansa may enjoy these stories, GRRM is making it clear that they all have special relevance to her in particular.

As for not seeing a detailed love story in her future, Revenge, you need to pay closer attention ;) There is something developing between her and the Hound right before our eyes. What did you think of how they played off each other in Sansa I of ACOK?

Again, I disagree :) Joff may have been offed by another family, but it was Sansa's testimony that probably convinced Marg and the Queen of Thorns more than anything else LF told them at Highgarden. And Sansa carried the poison in her hair. She may not have been involved in the planning to murder Joff, but it was sweet irony that she not provided the weapon, but that it was awful treatment of her that doomed him.

Yes; more and more I'm leaning towards thinking Tyrion could be the savage giant. His arc after ADWD seems to be taking a darker turn, so it could bring him into conflict with Sansa, and Tyrion hasn't forgotten how he was mistreated in the Vale.

I got to think a bit more on this, I don't think she hates Tyrion enough to do him in at this point, but if Tyrion comes with Danny and the head to the Vale to lay a claim on Winterfell that could totally change who she sees as more as a threat and take action to save her family home, as of right now I think the stone giant is her target.

[brashcandy]

1.The Death of a Lady

In AGOT it is heavily implied that the Direwolves are important to the Stark children. The death of Lady therefore has several possible foreshadowing elements for Sansa. Ned notes how all the Direwolves’ names fit them perfectly and also fit the children they belong to. Lady, it the smallest and most gentle of the Direwolves, reflecting Sansa’s position as the gentlest of her siblings and possibly the least wolf like. Both girl and wolf are Ladies first and foremost.

Lady’s death however seems to hint that Sansa could become permanently separated from the Stark side of her self or that the Lady she was once going to be, has been sacrificed. Also unlike the other Starks she now no longer has her “wolf” to protect her.

I do agree that Robert's statement "get her dog, she'll be happier for it", foreshadows the Hound's importance in Sansa's life, primarily as a Lady replacement. In getting past my outrage over the unfair nature of her death, I've come to realise that the wolf would have died anyways. Even if it had made the journey to KL, there is no way that by the time Ned got arrested, and Sansa was locked in Maegor's Holdfast, that she would have had access to the animal. Cersei would probably have ordered it killed on the spot. So, there was always going to be a need for Sansa to have another form of protection. Enter the Hound. He has all the ferociousness of a real animal, but the benefit to Sansa is that he's not seen as being loyal to her. He's supposed to be Joff's sworn shield, but starting in the current chapter under discussion, we see him protecting Sansa more actively, even supporting her lie to Joff about the bad luck of killing on one's name day. Lady would have always been viewed as a threat, and would have been killed the first time she tried to prevent Sansa's abuse. So whilst Lady's death might have been unfair, it would have happened eventually.

9. Wargmaster Sansa: The Deanna Troi of Westeros

Sansa has lost her wolf, but GRRM has said all the Stark children are Wargs to some degree. Sansa seems to have a huge amount of empathy. This lets her connect with people. At one point she thinks she can almost hear the rest of Sandor Clegane’s thoughts, although not in a warg way, but I see what your are driving at type of way.

If Sandor is indeed Lady's replacement, then it makes sense that Sansa might establish a warg connection with him. Indeed, she does seem to sense his feelings, although this isn't hard, guess C for anger :) - but certainly she's a lot more aware of what is behind that rage, and she's sympathetic to him. Just like all the Starks treat their wolves like friends and not pets, Sansa manages to establish a relationship with Sandor that goes beyond the norm of how he's treated by his employers - a dog that bites on command.

Anyways, I won't get ahead of the chapter, and it will be interesting to see bit by bit how their relationship progresses and aids in Sansa's development. Certainly if Sandor hadn't rescued her in this chapter she would have been in for a terrible beating. I wonder if he was inwardly cursing her when she suggested that Dontos be made Joffrey's fool? He could have felt that she was pushing her luck.

[Caro99]

@raspie, your foreshadowing points were brilliant, really!

and given all the points that have been mentioned about tyrion being the giant, i am also starting to think of this as a very likely posibility for the end of the series. but if she does end up slaying the giant of lannister, what could be the consequences? by this point sansa could have already been declared as the queen of the north or the vale or something. i've read before people comparing her to elizabeth I, but what if she ends up like mary queen of scots? if danny arrives in westeros and has agreed to take tyrion as one of her advisors, it would be kind of sad to see danny ordering sansa to be killed not only to rid herself of an opponent, but also for murdering her new little friend.

[Caro99]

I do agree that Robert's statement "get her dog, she'll be happier for it", foreshadows the Hound's importance in Sansa's life, primarily as a Lady replacement. In getting past my outrage over the unfair nature of her death, I've come to realise that the wolf would have died anyways. Even if it had made the journey to KL, there is no way that by the time Ned got arrested, and Sansa was locked in Maegor's Holdfast, that she would have had access to the animal. Cersei would probably have ordered it killed on the spot.

So whilst Lady's death might have been unfair, it would have happened eventually.

I wonder if he was inwardly cursing her when she suggested that Dontos be made Joffrey's fool? He could have felt that she was pushing her luck.

agreed on the points you gave. about lady, i think we all agree that it was better for lady to die in the hands of ned than by someone in the red keep. it might have been more "heroic" of lady dying after she tried to save sansa from a beating or something, but i still prefer her to have died with ned by her side...

and to me sandor is lady's replacment. he even appears on the scene moments after lady died, so...

i'm sure sandor cursed in his mind when sansa cried out to joff that he couldn't kill dontos. but i'm sure he was also surprised & pleased with the lie she came up with. again, sansa surprised some people's views of how "stupid she is" here. instead of crying for mercy or something, she is indeed learned quickly how to survive.

[Raksha the Demon]

@raspie, your foreshadowing points were brilliant, really!

and given all the points that have been mentioned about tyrion being the giant, i am also starting to think of this as a very likely posibility for the end of the series. but if she does end up slaying the giant of lannister, what could be the consequences? by this point sansa could have already been declared as the queen of the north or the vale or something. i've read before people comparing her to elizabeth I, but what if she ends up like mary queen of scots? if danny arrives in westeros and has agreed to take tyrion as one of her advisors, it would be kind of sad to see danny ordering sansa to be killed not only to rid herself of an opponent, but also for murdering her new little friend.

I never thought of the Sansa-slaying-a-giant as being a harbinger of her killing Tyrion, of all people; but it's certainly as likely as her killing UnGregor. Sansa has a personal connection to Tyrion; she is his wife. If he comes back to Westeros more bitter and malicious than before, which certainly can be the case, given his attitude in ADWD, Tyrion might contest the annulment to their marriage out of spite or a desire to claim Winterfell in his bride's name. That would give Sansa a motive to kill him. Or suppose that Sansa has had an annulment granted in Tyrion's absentia and made a marriage that is making her happy; perhaps she is pregnant; and Tyrion returns and tells her he will contest the annulment and say that they consummated the marriage. I could see Sansa being motivated to kill Tyrion, if she cannot persuade him not to contest the annulment, especially if Sansa is pregnant; she knows first-hand what bastardy would mean for her child; she has been one and she has seen how Jon Snow was treated. Sansa could kill to protect her child. Tyrion is physically strong enough to strangle a healthy young woman; but if Sansa took him by surprise, with a dagger; he has always underestimated her intelligence and determination, she could incapacitate him and then finish him off.

It could happen. I don't want to see Sansa kill Tyrion, they both deserve better than to have their final confrontation be a fatal one; but it is not impossible. The comparison to Mary Queen of Scots is interesting, and not totally invalid; Mary was attractive, charming, well-educated, romantic; and exhibited very poor judgment as an adult at least.

[brashcandy]

i'm sure sandor cursed in his mind when sansa cried out to joff that he couldn't kill dontos. but i'm sure he was also surprised & pleased with the lie she came up with. again, sansa surprised some people's views of how "stupid she is" here. instead of crying for mercy or something, she is indeed learned quickly how to survive.

Precisely. She's gotten this reputation as stupid, do nothing Sansa, but she isn't stupid and she does very important things like saving people's lives. This is what I hope will distinguish her as a player in the game of thrones. LF is quick to dispose of people, but I hope that Sansa keeps that awareness of the value of human life, even when it's in the form of a drunken oaf like Dontos. And she notices how Sandor manages to keep his voice very neutral when he's agreeing about the name day bad luck, so hopefully this is something she'll remember whilst she's at the Gates of the moon.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I have to disagree with you here a bit. Whilst I accept your point that most stories of courtly romance - especially those that would be appealing for the long haul - would concern illicit romance, I don't think it can be easily underestimated when it comes to Sansa's arc. It's not a coincidence that Joff compares himself to Aegon the Unworthy, whilst Sansa esteems Aemon the Dragonknight. Then we have the referencing of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, someone whose life and times sounds eerily similar to that of Sandor Clegane. Florian and Jonquil is another song that has special significance for Sansa, in that she does end up getting her "fool", but it's in the form of a real drunk fool, Ser Dontos. So whilst Sansa may enjoy these stories, GRRM is making it clear that they all have special relevance to her in particular.

The thing is, Joff has absolutely nothing in common with Aegon IV, other than being a jerk, and there are plenty of jerks in this series so I don't see that as a significant parallel. There isn't a single area of like-for-like comparison between their lives, and if anything Joff is the worse person, an actual monster. Aegon was just a hedonist and womanizer and idiot who legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed and gave one of them the family sword. Joffrey is a sadist. I can understand Joff relating to this King in particular, because he also wielded absolute power quite selfishly. Joff probably thinks that's badass but I don't think that's particularly symbolic.

I don't deny that the stories have a significance in Sansa's life. But it's not an organic significance, or foreshadowing something that'll happen on its own. The stories have significance because Sansa tries to fit her life into them before her awakening, and other people try to manipulate her by using them as devices. In normal foreshadowing, the significance is something the character is unaware of, but the text conveys it clearly to the omniscient reader.

The only reason Sansa's relationship with Dontos in any way mirrors Florian and Jonquil, is because Sansa herself is obsessed with that story, revealed her romanticism to LF, and then became caught in the spiderweb he constructed for her using her own predisposition to try to fit her life into these stories. The story has significance because Sansa and LF gave it significance, and both had this story in mind, guiding their actions (and in Sansa's case perceptions). It's actually a complete subversion of the trope of a person's inner romanticism being fulfilled externally by chance, with the symbolism hidden from the character.

As for not seeing a detailed love story in her future, Revenge, you need to pay closer attention ;) There is something developing between her and the Hound right before our eyes. What did you think of how they played off each other in Sansa I of ACOK?

I agree with you that there's definitely something going on here, I just don't know what that is. I'm not entirely convinced at this point that any of these almost-ships are going to meet again, and I can't imagine how a truly detailed unfolding of a relationship would fit into the story. The Hound and Sansa are clearly really significant factors in each other's lives, but I'm not convinced they're going to end up together or even see each other again, though the latter is more likely.

Even if they do end up together, the Hound isn't a knight in any sense of the word. He is absolutely nothing like those heroes Sansa likes to hear about in songs. He's blunt, rough, kind of rude, intimidating, unkempt, certainly not heroic though very sympathetic and a protagonist or anti-hero in his own right, and he's not a knight. He spits on knightly vows because he understands their inherent hypocrisy, and he has nothing but contempt for the fake courtesy and gallantry that goes with the stereotypical image of knights. If he and Sansa do end up together, it's not going to be a fulifllment of her romantic songs, it's going to be another subversion of a cliched trope, one where Sansa realizes that a real man, well-intentioned but imperfect, is better than the cardboard cut-outs of the songs.

Again, I disagree :) Joff may have been offed by another family, but it was Sansa's testimony that probably convinced Marg and the Queen of Thorns more than anything else LF told them at Highgarden. And Sansa carried the poison in her hair. She may not have been involved in the planning to murder Joff, but it was sweet irony that she not provided the weapon, but that it was awful treatment of her that doomed him.

I'm not denying that Sansa had a huge role in how that wedding fiasco went down. That wasn't the point of my comment about vengeance. I was just pointing out that so far in the series, it seems like no one ever gets it the way they want. Sansa wasn't actively plotting Joff's downfall when she was telling Olenna about him. She was not privy to the hairnet scheme, had no idea what that was for. And IIRC she was kind of robbed of any satisfaction at Joffrey's death because of how horrible it was. She wanted his head on a platter, and to be happy about it, and I would guess, to be active and aware in her role in all of that, but instead she got a complete surprise, and a horrible, confusing scene that ended with her "Florian" getting gutted with a crossbow bolt, after demanding payment for his role in delivering her to LF.

[brashcandy]

The thing is, Joff has absolutely nothing in common with Aegon IV, other than being a jerk, and there are plenty of jerks in this series so I don't see that as a significant parallel. There isn't a single area of like-for-like comparison between their lives, and if anything Joff is the worse person, an actual monster. Aegon was just a hedonist and womanizer and idiot who legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed and gave one of them the family sword. Joffrey is a sadist. I can understand Joff relating to this King in particular, because he also wielded absolute power quite selfishly. Joff probably thinks that's badass but I don't think that's particularly symbolic.

It's not symbolic on its own, it's symbolic in relation to Sansa's earlier comparison of their romance to the one Naerys has with the Dragonknight. So if Joff fancies himself Aegon the unworthy - no matter if he isn't strictly like this king - it symbolizes the unhappy relationship that he and Sansa come to share.

I don't deny that the stories have a significance in Sansa's life. But it's not an organic significance, or foreshadowing something that'll happen on its own. The stories have significance because Sansa tries to fit her life into them before her awakening, and other people try to manipulate her by using them as devices. In normal foreshadowing, the significance is something the character is unaware of, but the text conveys it clearly to the omniscient reader.

That's the thing. This is operating like textbook foreshadowing and dramatic irony too. Sansa believes that Joff fulfills the essense of these legendary heroes, but the reader knows that he's really a cruel, sadistic coward. Where I really see the importance of the foreshadowing is not just in revealing the breakdown of their relationship, but hinting at someone else fulfilling the role of these heroes for Sansa. She comes to hate Joffrey, but she does develop a strange friendship with a member of his Kingsguard.

The only reason Sansa's relationship with Dontos in any way mirrors Florian and Jonquil, is because Sansa herself is obsessed with that story, revealed her romanticism to LF, and then became caught in the spiderweb he constructed for her using her own predisposition to try to fit her life into these stories. The story has significance because Sansa and LF gave it significance, and both had this story in mind, guiding their actions (and in Sansa's case perceptions). It's actually a complete subversion of the trope of a person's inner romanticism being fulfilled externally by chance, with the symbolism hidden from the character.

I disagree strongly here. In the very chapter that we're at currently we see that Sansa is the one to rescue Dontos. She gets Joffrey to agree to spare his life by literally turning him into a fool. So we have a subversion of the trope where the fool isn't the one performing the heroics, it's actually the supposed "damsel in distress". I think LF thought to use Dontos after this incident, but really it doesn't matter. Sansa had already created the fool, even if the symbolism ultimately escaped her, which I don't think it does as we see by her feelings towards the "saviour" Dontos later on. So whilst the trope is subverted, it doesn't happen by LF's machinations.

I agree with you that there's definitely something going on here, I just don't know what that is. I'm not entirely convinced at this point that any of these almost-ships are going to meet again, and I can't imagine how a truly detailed unfolding of a relationship would fit into the story. The Hound and Sansa are clearly really significant factors in each other's lives, but I'm not convinced they're going to end up together or even see each other again, though the latter is more likely.

Ok, that's fine. I don't expect everyone will see it as I do, but at least we agree there's something happening there. :)

Even if they do end up together, the Hound isn't a knight in any sense of the word. He is absolutely nothing like those heroes Sansa likes to hear about in songs. He's blunt, rough, kind of rude, intimidating, unkempt, certainly not heroic though very sympathetic and a protagonist or anti-hero in his own right, and he's not a knight. He spits on knightly vows because he understands their inherent hypocrisy, and he has nothing but contempt for the fake courtesy and gallantry that goes with the stereotypical image of knights. If he and Sansa do end up together, it's not going to be a fulifllment of her romantic songs, it's going to be another subversion of a cliched trope, one where Sansa realizes that a real man, well-intentioned but imperfect, is better than the cardboard cut-outs of the songs.

Yes, and I think is Martin's entire point. She invests so much in these songs and stories of romance and dashing knights, but she's not going to "find" this ideal suitor. Real life - something that we know Sansa struggled with grasping in early AGOT - is about interacting with what you find there, making things happen for you, playing the game. Sansa was looking to fit herself into a story that had already been written, now she has to write her own song, she has to deal with the challenges and the problems of life and romance, and it's not going to be easy. I think Sandor, amongst other things, represents that challenge for her and vice versa.

I'm not denying that Sansa had a huge role in how that wedding fiasco went down. That wasn't the point of my comment about vengeance. I was just pointing out that so far in the series, it seems like no one ever gets it the way they want. Sansa wasn't actively plotting Joff's downfall when she was telling Olenna about him. She was not privy to the hairnet scheme, had no idea what that was for. And IIRC she was kind of robbed of any satisfaction at Joffrey's death because of how horrible it was. She wanted his head on a platter, and to be happy about it, and I would guess, to be active and aware in her role in all of that, but instead she got a complete surprise, and a horrible, confusing scene that ended with her "Florian" getting gutted with a crossbow bolt, after demanding payment for his role in delivering her to LF.

I agree that seldom anyone gets the vengeance they desire, but in this case Sansa all but signed Joff's death warrant. If she hadn't told Marg what kind of man he was, the Tyrells might have decided to hedge their chances and let him live. It's clear they were primarily concerned with Joff's treatment of Marg, not his refusing to give bread to the poor. And wearing the hairnet was absolutely imperative to the entire plan. Also, I think Sansa senses that she had a part in his death. She feels some alarm when she notices that one of the stones is missing from the hairnet.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Also, I think Sansa senses that she had a part in his death. She feels some alarm when she notices that one of the stones is missing from the hairnet.

IIRC, doesn't LF confirm for her that the hairnet was the carrier of the poison, with his clever little Q&A about someone straightening the hairnet at the wedding? He never comes right out and says it (in true LF style) but he asks the pointed questions and Sansa draws the conclusions he obviously wants her to draw.

I have a whole crackpot theory about how the hairnet was not ultimately what poisoned Joff (not that they didn't try to use it, but that they failed, and Varys installed himself as a backup plan and finally got the deed done right), but sadly I seem to be the only one who believes it. It has to do with very closely following the timeline of events at the wedding combined with the location(s) of the chalice, and a certain servingman whom I believe was Varys in disguise, either working with LF (or simply knowing of LF's plan via his little bird system) as a backup plan to make absolutely sure the job got done.

[brashcandy]

IIRC, doesn't LF confirm for her that the hairnet was the carrier of the poison, with his clever little Q&A about someone straightening the hairnet at the wedding? He never comes right out and says it (in true LF style) but he asks the pointed questions and Sansa draws the conclusions he obviously wants her to draw.

I have a whole crackpot theory about how the hairnet was not ultimately what poisoned Joff (not that they didn't try to use it, but that they failed, and Varys installed himself as a backup plan and finally got the deed done right), but sadly I seem to be the only one who believes it. It has to do with very closely following the timeline of events at the wedding combined with the location(s) of the chalice, and a certain servingman whom I believe was Varys in disguise, either working with LF (or simply knowing of LF's plan via his little bird system) as a backup plan to make absolutely sure the job got done.

Yes, you're right about him all but coming out and telling her how it all went down, I had forgotten that :) Crackpots can be frustrating, but that one sounds interesting! I wouldn't put anything past Varys honestly.

[Summerqueen]

What do you all think about the idea that "killing the savage giant" may not mean literally killing the savage giant?

That is, in one way at least, we see that she has already killed Tyrion's ego (not that his ego is so large) by rejecting him in their marriage bed. That could be the whole of the foreshadowing right there. Or, when Tyrion returns with Dany's army/dragons, Sansa may be instrumental in soothing him, slaying his thirst for vengeance (his savagery). I'm not sure the words mean that, but I play with the idea that I may be reading the action involved too literally from time to time.

Honestly, when I first read those words, I thought immediately of the Mountain (and did a little dance :D ).

She feels some alarm when she notices that one of the stones is missing from the hairnet.

I'd like to see her deliberate more on her part in the assassination. If she begins to work out how to use the people who made use of her, we'll know she's become a real player.

[brashcandy]

What do you all think about the idea that "killing the savage giant" may not mean literally killing the savage giant?

That is, in one way at least, we see that she has already killed Tyrion's ego (not that his ego is so large) by rejecting him in their marriage bed. That could be the whole of the foreshadowing right there. Or, when Tyrion returns with Dany's army/dragons, Sansa may be instrumental in soothing him, slaying his thirst for vengeance (his savagery). I'm not sure the words mean that, but I play with the idea that I may be reading the action involved too literally from time to time.

Honestly, when I first read those words, I thought immediately of the Mountain (and did a little dance :D ).

:) I think you make some valid points. I'm leaning towards it being Tyrion and it being a violent confrontation because of the "slaying" aspect, and because of the unfinished business between Tyrion and the Vale, along with Sansa, which could see them fighting against each other. The savage giant could still be Gregor or LF, I just find the use of the same words in different contexts interesting, and Tyrion has already promised Sansa a lot of things that he never delivered on, so promising not to savage her might be hollow as well. Plus Gregor as a literal giant seems too easy, unless this all boils down to Sweetrobin's doll, I like the metaphorical options of Tyrion or Littlefinger.

I'd like to see her deliberate more on her part in the assassination. If she begins to work out how to use the people who made use of her, we'll know she's become a real player.

Agreed.

[1234567]

ACOK Sansa II Summary

Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home.

The chapter starts with Sansa in her chambers reading a message she found folded up under one of her pillows. She is unsure what to do and first thinks that she should take it to the Queen to show she was being good. As she thinks this, she rubs her stomach where she is still badly bruised from Ser Meryn punching her with a mailed fist for saying she hoped the Others would kill Janos Slynt within Joff’s hearing range. She thinks

It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffery.

She reflects again on the words “Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home” and thinks that she has prayed so hard for a true knight to save her and wonders who it could be. She thinks it maybe one of the Redwyne Twins, Balon Swann or Beric Dondarrion. Then she worries that it is a trick by Joffery. Or a trap to prove her a traitor and that Ser Ilyn Payne will be waiting for her in the Godswood with Ice.

The door opens and a servant enters. Sansa quickly hides the note and asks the girl to set a fire. She doesn’t trust the girl and notes that the Queen changes her servants every fortnight so that she doesn’t befriend them. Sansa thinks that the girl seems stupid, but that she has sly eyes.

Doubtless, she was scurrying off to report to the queen, or maybe Varys. All her maids spied on her, she was certain.

Once the girl has left, she burns the note and looks out to see Ser Preston Greenfield of the KG pacing the drawbridge between Maegor’s and the rest of the castle. She realises she can’t get past him without her being questioned so undresses and goes to bed. She wonders is her True Knight is waiting for her and how long will he wait for her.

She wishes she had someone to talk to and advise her, like Septa Mordane or Jeyne Poole, who she remembers as her truest friend and had never been mentioned again after she was taken away by LF.

She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears. Once in a while, Sansa even missed her sister. By now Arya was safe back in Winterfell, dancing and sewing, playing with Bran and baby Rickon, even riding through the winter town if she liked.

During her reflections she hears shouting from outside. She thinks she should go back to her bed and that this is just some new trouble like the gossip being spoken about at the wells. Then she sees that the drawbridge is unguarded. Even though she thinks it is madness, she quickly dresses and takes a knife and hurries towards the Godswood. She avoids being seen by Soldiers, the KG and Joff. She hides in the shadows and at one point

When something brushed against her leg, she almost jumped out of her skin, but it was only a cat, a ragged black tom with a chewed-off ear. The creature spit at her and leapt away.

She finally reaches the Godswood. She notes the smells and thinks

Lady would have liked this place

She notes that there is something wild about even this Godswood which is in a city and that she could feel the old gods watching her. She thinks that she had preferred her mother’s gods with their statues, stained glass windows, incense, crystals and glitzy rainbow colours, but at the same time, she could not deny the power of the Godswood and notes that it is especially powerful at night.

Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me…

As she prays, she moves from tree to tree, feeling the rough bark of the trees and the leaves on her face. She wonders if she has arrived to late.

Then a man appears: Ser Dontos. A very drunk Ser Dontos. He tries to reach out for her and she warns him off while her hand goes to her knife. He says he is there to help her. She says he’s drunk and he says it was one cup to help his courage as they will skin him if they catch him.

And what will they do to me? Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could, but she was dead, father had killed her, on account of Arya. She drew the knife and held it before her with both hands.

Dontos asks if she is going to stab him and she says “I will. Tell me who sent you”, to which Ser Dontos replies no one. Sansa gets upset and says she prayed to the gods for a knight and they have sent her a drunken old fool. Ser Dontos says he was a fool, but her courageousness in saving him from Joff has also saved him from himself and says the greatest knight of all was a fool and falls to his knees in front of her. Sansa thinks of Florian, and a shiver runs through her. Dontos says he can be her Florian, and she asks how he will get her away from the Lannisters, while thinking that it is madness to trust him, but it maybe the only chance she gets. He tells her the hardest part is getting out of the castle, but once they have done that, they’ll get a boat. Sansa asks if they can leave tonight. Dontos says no and asks her to put away her blade.

Dontos then says that her father was a true man and that he stood by and let him be slain, yet when he was in peril, she spoke up for him. He says that he was never a hero,

but I was a knight once and you have helped me remember what that meant.

He then places his hand on the Heart Tree and swears an Oath to the Old Gods that he will send her home. Sansa thinks that a solemn oath before the gods is important and accepts his offer of an escape plan.

He tells her that she must come to the Godswood as often as she can as it is the only place they can talk freely and that all conversations can be heard everywhere else, because the stones have ears. He says that he maybe cruel and mocking outside the Godswood, but it is a role he must play and she must play her role too if they want to keep their heads. he tells her

you will need to be brave and strong… and patient, patient above all.”

He then says she should go before she is missed and they should not be seen together so she must leave first. Sansa kisses him on the cheek and thinks, the Gods heard my prayer, and that she has her Florian.

As she is hurrying back, she thinks about Florian and Jonquil and how it is her favourite song.

Florian was homely too, though not so old. She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway.

She knocks into him and begins to fall, but he grabs her wrist and says it’s a long way down and does she want to kill them both, and perhaps she does. She realizes it’s the Hound. She tries to get free of his grasp and tells him that he’s hurting her. He asks what she is doing at the serpentine steps and when she doesn’t answer, he shakes her and demands to know where she was. She tells him she was in the Godswood praying for her father and Joff. Sandor says he’s not so drunk as to believe that and lets her arm go. He then tells her

You look almost a woman … face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost … ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you? Singing all the songs they taught you … sing me a song, why don’t you?

After going on about songs about Knights and maidens he says she likes Knights and Sansa responds that she likes True Knights. The Hound laughs at this and says that he is no more a Lord than a Knight and asks if he has to beat that into her. He then mentions that he has had too much wine and says she has to go back to her cage.

I’ll take you there. Keep you safe for the King.” The Hound gave her a push, oddly gentle, and followed her down the steps.

They walk in silence until they reach Maegor’s Holdfast and Sansa gets alarmed when she sees Ser Boros on the Bridge. Sansa thinks that he is the worst of the KG. The Hound however notices her apprehension and tells her that Ser Boros is not someone to be afraid of and compares him to a toad painted with tiger stripes. Ser Boros tries to question them and Sandor tells him to f*** off and reminds him that he’s not a Ser, he’s the king’s dog. When questioned by Ser Boros, Sansa says she was in the Godswood praying for Joff and thinks the lie sounds more convincing this time. Sandor intervenes and says she could hardly be expected to sleep with all the racket. Ser Boros says there are people rioting because of the food for Tyrek’s wedding feast. Joff led a sortie and Clegane mockingly says a brave boy. Sansa thinks

Let us see how brave he is when he faces me brother

As they walk on, Sansa asks why Sandor lets people call him a dog and doesn’t let anyone call him a knight. Sandor tells her that he likes dogs better than knights and tells her that his grandfather was a kennelmaster who saved Tytos Lannister from a Lioness. Three of his dogs died, and his grandfather lost a leg and in exchange Tytos gave them a Towerhouse, lands and made his father a squire. he notes

A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he’ll look you straight in the face.

He notes that she still won’t look at him and says that he never got his song. Sansa says she will gladly sing for him and mentions Florian and Jonquil, to which Sandor says spare me and describes them as a fool and his cunt, but says he’ll get a song from her one day whether she wills it or not. She says she’d gladly sing for him and he snorts

“ Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here … and every one better than you.

Analysis

This is another great chapter for seeing the development of Sansa. Her response to the note is not naïve but a realisation that it could be many things from real to a trap to a cruel jape. She deliberates on the best course of action and also destroys the note which shows a lot of sense. She also doesn’t trust her maids and has already worked out they are spies for the Queen or Varys, which is interesting as she doesn’t seem to have much to do with him, but is aware that he maybe spying on her.

We also see her realise that she has to guard what she says more and only think things, whilst hiding her feelings. The beatings she endures sound unpleasant to say the least.

We also see more of the religious side to Sansa. Whether that has become more developed due to her captivity and it being her only course of action or already deep seated beliefs is debatable. Certainly her love of the Seven comes across as childish infatuation with the exterior elements of it, while the Godswood seems to resonant with her. Similarly, she is still thinking it terms of being rescued rather than trying to orchestrate her own escape attempt. However when she goes to the Godswood, she does arm herself with a knife, thinking

If it is some trap, better that I die than let them hurt me more

This struck me as very brave, but also very sad. She is clearly being beaten frequently and is having to play a mummer’s part to survive. She can no longer be Sansa Stark. She must be a modified version that always watches what she says. With Ser Dontos, she pulls a knife on him and is reluctant to drop it until he swears his oath. She is not going to believe the first thing anyone says anymore. She has become more distrustful and we see more perspective as she asks him who he is working for. On a side note, I always wondered if LF was hiding in the Godswood listening to this conversation. Sansa is much more of a player than pawn in this encounter with Ser Dontos.

Also she thinks about Jeyne Poole and Septa Mordane and enviously of Arya, who she thinks is safely in Winterfell. She is also still blaming Lady’s death on Arya. I don’t have a sibling, but it occurs to me that although Arya and Sansa are sisters, Sansa cared more about Jeyne Poole. She was more of a sister to her than Arya.

Her interaction with the Godswood and her prayer are also interesting, as she prays for

Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me…

. She then thinks after meeting Dontos that Florian was homely but younger and almost instantly runs into Sandor Clegane, who despite being an ass, sees her safely past Ser Boros and when she is frightend of Ser Boros, tries to comfort her. Also the Sandor Lady parallel is also highlighted again in this chapter.

And what will they do to me? Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could, but she was dead.

“ Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here … and every one better than you.

Also despite her mummer’s act and watching what she says, she never seems to do so with Sandor. She talks to him quite openly, even though he scares her.

There is also the strange interaction with the cat, which we know is Belarion, Rhaenys’ kitten. It doesn’t like Sansa and I wonder if this is foreshadowing of Sansa going against the Targs. Again fitting into the Younger Queen theory if she is married to Aegon and he is a Blackfyre.

Also in the Godswood, Sansa notices that there is more power at night and this seems to echo Bran’s dream call to Jon about liking it in the dark.

We have more fears about Ser Ilyn Payne and there certainly seems to be some idea that he is waiting for.

[the Scorpion Knight]

maybe the cat it trying to scare sansa into her hed and away from dontos (and in this way LF)

[brashcandy]

Nice review Rapsie. Again, that link between Sandor and Lady is established which has important implications both now and later (I hope) for Sansa's arc. She prays for a true knight, but what we see again is that her "idea" of what this is, will never be met - not by Sandor, Dontos, or any other candidate. Sansa is going to have to come to terms with the men in her life, accept them for their "good" qualities, as well as their failings. She realises that Dontos is a drunken fool, but we still see a naivete (borne admittedly of desperation) to accept him as her Florian, and agree to him making arrangements to get her away. In retrospect, it was a clever ruse by LF, to use the fool created by Sansa to in turn make her believe that her real Florian had come alive. Can we blame Sansa for falling for the trick, for not realising that a "fool" like Dontos wasn't likely to be able to pull off any heroics? I'll leave that open for now.

I do like how Martin contrasts the falsity and naivete of her meeting with Dontos to the harshly honest, open one she shares with the Hound. He suspects right away that her story is bogus, and calls her on it, and it's notable how she finds it difficult to lie to him, but easier to do so with Boros Blount. Not only is there a sense that lying to him simply wouldn't work, he can "smell" it anyways, she also gets courage when he's by her side. She's beginning to realise that he can offer support and encouragement even if it is in the unconventional form of telling her Boros is only a toad with tiger stripes. And once again he shields her from danger with the KG knight, telling Boros:

You expect her to sleep with all the noise?"

I think your analysis on the effect of the godswood on her is spot on. Something resonates with her in the place. She senses that Lady would have liked it and notes that

even here, in the heart of the castle at the heart of the city, you could feel the old gods watching with a thousand unseen eyes.

Wasn't Bloodraven described as having a thousand eyes and one? I think the hint of a connection here between Sansa and the old gods, reveals that the death of Lady doesn't mean that she's been deserted or abandoned as a daughter of the North. She can still feel the power of these places.

ETA: I thought the mention of the cat was a funny way for Martin to tell us that Sansa is much more of a dog person. :cool4:

[Grail King]

What do you all think about the idea that "killing the savage giant" may not mean literally killing the savage giant? That is, in one way at least, we see that she has already killed Tyrion's ego (not that his ego is so large) by rejecting him in their marriage bed. That could be the whole of the foreshadowing right there. Or, when Tyrion returns with Dany's army/dragons, Sansa may be instrumental in soothing him, slaying his thirst for vengeance (his savagery). I'm not sure the words mean that, but I play with the idea that I may be reading the action involved too literally from time to time. Honestly, when I first read those words, I thought immediately of the Mountain (and did a little dance :D ). I'd like to see her deliberate more on her part in the assassination. If she begins to work out how to use the people who made use of her, we'll know she's become a real player.

Oh so yes on this and in spades.