439 replies to this topic

[Rapsie]

I note that the thread about Sandor Clegane v 19 has been closed down with quite a stern MOD warning about even discussing Sansa and Sandor. As the issue of any potential relationship between them may raise it's self with some form as we read future chapters, can I please ask all contributors to this thread to be careful what they write as the re-read has so far been very enlightening and I would hate to see this thread shutdown and deleted.

[Grail King]

Rapsie, on 24 February 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

I note that the thread about Sandor Clegane v 19 has been closed down with quite a stern MOD warning about even discussing Sansa and Sandor. As the issue of any potential relationship between them may raise it's self with some form as we read future chapters, can I please ask all contributors to this thread to be careful what they write as the re-read has so far been very enlightening and I would hate to see this thread shutdown and deleted.

Out of curiosity what shut it down, someone post bodily injury to someone?

[brashcandy]

Grail King, on 24 February 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Out of curiosity what shut it down, someone post bodily injury to someone?

Perhaps. Anyways, any other queries should be made via PM.

To get back on topic!

2 questions:

1.Just why was Cersei trying to get Sansa drunk again?
2. Is there anything concerning Cersei's "lessons" that Sansa could find useful or instructive? Or is Cersei more of a cautionary tale?

[childofsummer]

brashcandy, on 24 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Perhaps. Anyways, any other queries should be made via PM.

To get back on topic!

2 questions:

1.Just why was Cersei trying to get Sansa drunk again?
2. Is there anything concerning Cersei's "lessons" that Sansa could find useful or instructive? Or is Cersei more of a cautionary tale?

IMO, Cersei was both trying to rationalize her own response to the situation (drinking) and sadistically wanting to make Sansa uncomfortable.  She couldn't handle seeing Sansa cope with the stress gracefully, so she made Sansa drink much more than she wanted in an attempt to break Sansa's calm.  I guess Cersei's inviting the ladies to shelter in the keep was a positive thing for Sansa, because it reinforced the notion that queenship comes with certain social and other obligations, but I see Cersei much more as a warning to Sansa of what she does not want to become.

[brashcandy]

childofsummer, on 24 February 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

IMO, Cersei was both trying to rationalize her own response to the situation (drinking) and sadistically wanting to make Sansa uncomfortable.  She couldn't handle seeing Sansa cope with the stress gracefully, so she made Sansa drink much more than she wanted in an attempt to break Sansa's calm.  I guess Cersei's inviting the ladies to shelter in the keep was a positive thing for Sansa, because it reinforced the notion that queenship comes with certain social and other obligations, but I see Cersei much more as a warning to Sansa of what she does not want to become.

Yes, I agree. There seems to be something about Sansa's innocence that pisses her off, and her lessons are not geared at mere enlightening, but rather an attempt to corrupt the girl. And you made this point earlier, COS, about how Sansa sees the people in the hall as people, with needs and fears, but Cersei cannot relate to the women in any sympathetic light. She thinks of them as only being valuable because of their men: the "cocks" that she needs to impress by keeping their "hens".

Edited by brashcandy, 24 February 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[childofsummer]

brashcandy, on 24 February 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Yes, I agree. There seems to be something about Sansa's innocence that pisses her off, and her lessons are not geared at mere enlightening, but rather an attempt to corrupt the girl. And you made this point earlier, COS, about how Sansa sees the people in the hall as people, with needs and fears, but Cersei cannot relate to the women in any sympathetic light. She thinks of them as only being valuable because of their men: the "cocks" that she needs to impress by keeping their "hens".

Love the pun!  And while they're all "cooped" up in the castle, too.  

[bgona]

About the lessons of Cersei taught is more the How Not To Proceed. But also taught her valuable things as how some people can behavior in a city laid siege. People can run out, but it was wise to kill them as an example to others to not round out. Or it will be more intelligent to led them run out but not coming back.

Also taught Sansa who lived Cersei, trusting no one. It is interesant how both don´t trust anyone, but they have different arguments.

Sansa doesn´t trust anybody cause she is a prisioner, and she hasn´t any kind of power.

Cersei doesn´t trust anybody cause she is the queen, and she has all the power.

Here it is show also Cersei soul, been a very disturbing one.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

This is a Sansa thread but meh....Cersei just has penis envy and it shows in her manners/speech

[brashcandy]

Cersei just came off as a complete hypocrite. There she is complaining to Sansa about how she was given over to a marriage where she was beaten at will etc, and she's fine with Sansa marrying her son, whom she knows is mistreating the girl terribly.

[bgona]

That´s true and one of the worst part: Cersei is letting Joffrey to beat Sansa. She knows it and she doesn´t do nothing. Not for Sansa, but for Joffrey. Keeping him in that way will only make him a worst king and person. Here she shows how she is spoiling her son.

[Summerqueen]

I'm not sure whether I believe this is the case or not, but I do wonder if Cersei doesn't imagine that Sansa's innocence and good-heartedness is all an act, or possibly an act. I remember how she spoke with Ned, and she seemed to think, mistakenly, that he was hypocritical (IIRC?) because she cannot imagine what it must be like to not be self-serving. Remember what she was up to around Sansa's age? Yeah, pushing her friends down wells.

So, it occurs to me that when she orders Sansa to drink and then scares her with Ilyn, it might be to shake her up enough to babble out whether she has protectors or a source of info, etc., check to see if she has some sort of play or game on. Sansa is carefully guarded and the object of a lot of scrutiny. It isn't unreasonable for dissenters to have reached out to her by that time, though, and she probably worries about Sansa getting free or becoming some sort of rallying point as her own popularity falters. Plus, why does Sansa even care about these ladies? Are they important to her? Are they helping her? Cersei has a suspicious mind. She may have just wanted to feel Sansa out and thought alcohol would make that easier. For all Cersei knows, Sansa is the young queen from Maegi's prophecy, after all. We know how paranoid Cersei becomes in later books, how obsessed with this "young queen". She may be wondering if she can get a potential arch-nemesis to talk freely with a little wine.

[Caro99]

i don't have time today to comment on the new analysis sadly, but tomorrow this will be the frist thing i do! all the posts i've quickly read so far seem really good, but i do have one quick question not regarding the chapter. there was some talk before as to why they shut down the thread sandor clegane v. 19, so does anyone know if sandor clegane v.20 will begin soon, cause so far i checked and nothing.

[brashcandy]

Caro99, on 24 February 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

i don't have time today to comment on the new analysis sadly, but tomorrow this will be the frist thing i do! all the posts i've quickly read so far seem really good, but i do have one quick question not regarding the chapter. there was some talk before as to why they shut down the thread sandor clegane v. 19, so does anyone know if sandor clegane v.20 will begin soon, cause so far i checked and nothing.

Caro, I'll PM you.

[Grail King]

I think Cersei shows a bit of mistrust for her because she can't believe anyone could be so naive and nice and caring, she actually sees in the background how Sansa carries herself and how people seem at ease with her.

She may also see it as a total act on Sansa's part, that if true Sansa at this point is hiding it very well.
I also think Cersei and Joff talk things over and inside her gut Cersei is actually starting to think the Little Dove may not be as stupid as she thought and the prophecy may be coming true, and last thing Cersei could be jealous of the love and upbringing that Sansa and her family actually have (basically they got from their family what she didn't get from hers ).

[Grail King]

brashcandy, on 24 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Perhaps. Anyways, any other queries should be made via PM.

To get back on topic!

2 questions:

1.Just why was Cersei trying to get Sansa drunk again?
2. Is there anything concerning Cersei's "lessons" that Sansa could find useful or instructive? Or is Cersei more of a cautionary tale?

May I?

[brashcandy]

Summerqueen, on 24 February 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

I'm not sure whether I believe this is the case or not, but I do wonder if Cersei doesn't imagine that Sansa's innocence and good-heartedness is all an act, or possibly an act. I remember how she spoke with Ned, and she seemed to think, mistakenly, that he was hypocritical (IIRC?) because she cannot imagine what it must be like to not be self-serving. Remember what she was up to around Sansa's age? Yeah, pushing her friends down wells.

So, it occurs to me that when she orders Sansa to drink and then scares her with Ilyn, it might be to shake her up enough to babble out whether she has protectors or a source of info, etc., check to see if she has some sort of play or game on. Sansa is carefully guarded and the object of a lot of scrutiny. It isn't unreasonable for dissenters to have reached out to her by that time, though, and she probably worries about Sansa getting free or becoming some sort of rallying point as her own popularity falters. Plus, why does Sansa even care about these ladies? Are they important to her? Are they helping her? Cersei has a suspicious mind. She may have just wanted to feel Sansa out and thought alcohol would make that easier. For all Cersei knows, Sansa is the young queen from Maegi's prophecy, after all. We know how paranoid Cersei becomes in later books, how obsessed with this "young queen". She may be wondering if she can get a potential arch-nemesis to talk freely with a little wine.

And yet Cersei has been the one to take advantage of Sansa's innocence more than any of the other Lannisters. She used Sansa's information to have her locked into Maegor's Holdfast, and prevent Ned from getting the girls away; she played on Sansa's fears for her father in order to get her to write the letter to the Lannisters, and she's threatened and derided Sansa at every turn. It seems hard to believe that she doesn't have a genuine appreciation of Sansa's innocence, even though she might remain naturally suspicious.

[brashcandy]

Grail King, on 24 February 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

May I?

Yes.

[Grail King]

brashcandy, on 24 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Perhaps. Anyways, any other queries should be made via PM.

To get back on topic!

2 questions:

1.Just why was Cersei trying to get Sansa drunk again?
2. Is there anything concerning Cersei's "lessons" that Sansa could find useful or instructive? Or is Cersei more of a cautionary tale?

Forgot this, of course she can like anyone else and she would tweak it to fit her own purpose, when she said she be a Queen like her I believe in her head it would be deeper she be a much better queen.

[Summerqueen]

brashcandy, on 24 February 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

And yet Cersei has been the one to take advantage of Sansa's innocence more than any of the other Lannisters. She used Sansa's information to have her locked into Maegor's Holdfast, and prevent Ned from getting the girls away; she played on Sansa's fears for her father in order to get her to write the letter to the Lannisters, and she's threatened and derided Sansa at every turn. It seems hard to believe that she doesn't have a genuine appreciation of Sansa's innocence, even though she might remain naturally suspicious.

This is certainly true. But time has passed, and it seems possible that Cersei has become increasingly suspicious of the courtesy front. It obviously hides something, and Sansa is clearly saying what she ought, not what she really thinks. That much would be clear to anyone. Children who have to grow up fast learn fast. And, IDK, I sort of like the idea that Cersei may have a mirroring moment with Sansa where she identifies strongly with the girl and ends up reassessing her because of that identification. Surely all the talk about the abuse she has suffered does not fail to strike a  chord of similarity with what she knows Sansa goes through. ... I say that, but if irony were to be lost on anyone, it'd be Cersei. XD

[brashcandy]

Summerqueen, on 24 February 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

This is certainly true. But time has passed, and it seems possible that Cersei has become increasingly suspicious of the courtesy front. It obviously hides something, and Sansa is clearly saying what she ought, not what she really thinks. That much would be clear to anyone. Children who have to grow up fast learn fast. And, IDK, I sort of like the idea that Cersei may have a mirroring moment with Sansa where she identifies strongly with the girl and ends up reassessing her because of that identification. Surely all the talk about the abuse she has suffered does not fail to strike a  chord of similarity with what she knows Sansa goes through. ... I say that, but if irony were to be lost on anyone, it'd be Cersei. XD

Indeed I agree that she's suspicious of the courtesy front, and thinks that the meetings in the godswood are only about Sansa praying for the Lannisters' downfall. It still amazes me that the Lannisters seem to be resentful of this. What do they expect? Even Tyrion, who is the kindest of all to Sansa, still seems a little put off about her prayers. About Cersei and the mirroring moment, it would have been possible if not for the small problem that Cersei's mirror reflects nothing back but her own concerns and interests