125 replies to this topic

[Waterfall]

It might be that the series are going on a different path then the books. In the latest trailer you already see Catelyn pointing a blade at LF, that doesn't happen in the books. Offcourse it could also be Cat pointing the blade at Jaime, and just be a clever piece of editing.

Personally I would like to see the whole series being adapted, but is going to be a difficult job for D&D indeed. I hope they split aSoS into two parts, and for season 3 cut down a number of POV's immensly. Out of trailers and other released material for the next season we see Jaime already on the loose, which might mean they mean to start his developement earlier. I think they're doing that with Jon as well.

[Leuf]

Padraig, on 01 February 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

I don't think so.  People have asked but, naturally enough, he has avoided it and focused on how far in the future we are jumping to.  3 years in TV world is indeed massive.

They may very well have at least discussed it privately if not gone so far as to plan anything out.  But there isn't really anything to be gained by saying anything publicly.  All they could do is piss off the purists.

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If they split aCoK into 2 seasons, it would be almost impossible to get the series done in 8-10 seasons (given that the subsequent books are unlikely to be smaller than aCoK).  You'd probably need at least 12!  So that's a non-runner.

Well it would have bought them more time, since we have no idea when the books will be done.  They would have that time before the characters are as spread out, and before some of them are dead.  But they are pushing through the material quickly so far, which I think is for the best, but sets up a collision with the availability of the material.

[Padraig]

Werthead, on 01 February 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

GRRM's answer seems to have been that the TV show is the TV show and the books are the books, they are different things and will become more and more different as they continue on.

He has said something like that but i'm not sure was it is answer to the question "what happens if they pass you out"?  I thought that answer was to the question "will the TV series stay very faithful to the books"?  And even then, he hopes they will remain reasonably faithful.  For the former question, I have only seen him avoid the question (and I don't blame him for doing that) but I could have missed something.

Leuf, on 01 February 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

They may very well have at least discussed it privately if not gone so far as to plan anything out.  But there isn't really anything to be gained by saying anything publicly.  All they could do is piss off the purists.

True enough.  No point doing that until they are sure.  And they could always change their minds (a little anyhow).

Waterfall, on 01 February 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Out of trailers and other released material for the next season we see Jaime already on the loose, which might mean they mean to start his developement earlier.

I don't think we have seen that from the trailers.  We have seen that Jaime will be dragged along with Robb, which is obviously a change but he is a prisoner either way.  There will be changes but I think it is arguable about how big they are.  While Jaime and Sam are new POVs in aSoS, we are already spending time with them, so I don't think the number of POVs in aSoS is an issue.  (In fact, we have to see what they'll do with Theon yet).  So I don't think S3 has an issue with POV numbers.  That crops up later.

[Arrogant Bastard]

I used to think the show would make it to about 3 seasons before it became too expensive, but with the latest numbers that have been coming in, I think it could definitely go five. A third season is virtually guaranteed; the season 2 premiere should be higher than the season one finale, so HBO will renew it the following Tuesday.

I think the show can stay mostly faithful to the books until it goes past ASOS. Obviously there will be some changes and omissions, like the absence of the Reeds, but I don't see the need for any drastic changes in this coming season or the next two that cover ASOS, and I don't think any will be made. The biggest question for seasons 3 and possibly 4 is what they're going to do with Theon; he's not in ASOS at all, and it looks like GoT this season is expanding characters who were hardly in ACOK eg. Robb and Jaime. That's trickier with Theon, because there's nothing really for them to show in ASOS unless they change his storyline, plus the fact that there's so much going on in that book that adding Theon to the mix is probably covering too much.

Really, once it hits season 5, assuming ASOS is two seasons, the show will really need to diverge pretty significantly from the books. I don't think there's any way they do AFFC as a single season; leaving out perhaps the three biggest characters in the series for a whole season is not a good option. The problem is, if combined, AFFC and ADWD have too much for one season and just way too many characters all in different locations. Some of these can be cut or greatly condensed--the Iron Islands, Dorne and Quentyn, Brienne's travels, Sam's travels--but some are necessary. Even with cutting the storylines I just mentioned, that still leaves a lot of POVs--Bran, Arya, Sansa, Jaime, Cersei, Jon, Dany, Theon, Davos, Tyrion--to cover. Definitely too many where they can feature each one an episode, so some will have to be split up, which means maybe doing AFFC in like a six episode arc or something. Ultimately, the realist in me believes that after it hits ASOS, the show will continue in a direction pretty different from the book. Even if ADWD/AFFC covered two whole seasons, Arya and Sansa, two major characters, really don't do a whole lot in both books, and if they stayed faithful to the series would be in only like a sixth of those seasons.

But I'm ok with some major changes or omissions after ASOS, as I'd be happy for them just to do justice to that book. As far as the series ending in say five or six seasons, I'm not sure how that will be done in any satisfactory manner without enormous changes. If GoT stays relatively faithful to ASOS and everyone's arc ending how it did in that book, I don't see them wrapping up the show in one or two seasons. I tend to think that hte show will probably end without a real ending, or it will end wildly different than how Martin envisioned his ending and will probably feel very rushed.

[master]

Personally I'd rather they stayed true to the plot than the chronology. So instead of haveing feast and dance be two seasons, the first alf of feast and the first third [or whatever the number is] could be put into one season. And the rest into onother season.

[Padraig]

Arrogant Bastard, on 01 February 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Even with cutting the storylines I just mentioned, that still leaves a lot of POVs--Bran, Arya, Sansa, Jaime, Cersei, Jon, Dany, Theon, Davos, Tyrion--to cover. Definitely too many where they can feature each one an episode, so some will have to be split up, which means maybe doing AFFC in like a six episode arc or something. Ultimately, the realist in me believes that after it hits ASOS, the show will continue in a direction pretty different from the book. Even if ADWD/AFFC covered two whole seasons, Arya and Sansa, two major characters, really don't do a whole lot in both books, and if they stayed faithful to the series would be in only like a sixth of those seasons.

When you say it like that, it does highlight the challenges of those 2 books.  There are a few things they could do.  For example, they could effectively delay much of the later Sansa stuff in aSoS into aFfC.  They can easily create new stuff for Arya but the problem with her is that she is pretty isolated from everyone else (in a new city), while there are so many other characters to cover.   They could show some of Theon's experiences after aSoS.  Tough viewing but i'm not sure why people rule it out.

The show Lost was interesting because it focused on a set of characters for 1 episode and another set in the next.  Eventually, they did merge of course.

[DaveSumm]

There's a lot of scepticism around the show getting to the end.......am I naive to think it will? Somebody mentioned that this is the third highest rated HBO series already, if that's true I think it's got every chance. A lot of the issues that people raise aren't really that hard to get around: GRRM hasn't finished aDoS in time? Wait. They did it with The Sopranos. Sure, 7+ seasons is a lot, but it's not at all unheard of........plus the biggest reason other shows go downhill is writing, but this is based on pre-existing books.

I also don't see any reason to change things that much. Possibly condense and combine aFfC/aDwD, thats about it. D&D have made pretty clear they love the material, I think the only changes we'll see are ones that have to be made for TV.

I'm really hoping we start getting longer seasons, I think aSoS would be much better suited to 13/14/15 episodes than two seasons (the book isn't actually that eventful for the firs half, and would make a weak season) then maybe a longer season for a combined aFfC/aDwD.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Padraig, on 02 February 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

When you say it like that, it does highlight the challenges of those 2 books.  There are a few things they could do.  For example, they could effectively delay much of the later Sansa stuff in aSoS into aFfC.  They can easily create new stuff for Arya but the problem with her is that she is pretty isolated from everyone else (in a new city), while there are so many other characters to cover.   They could show some of Theon's experiences after aSoS.  Tough viewing but i'm not sure why people rule it out.

The show Lost was interesting because it focused on a set of characters for 1 episode and another set in the next.  Eventually, they did merge of course.

They could move Sansa's later ASOS arc into the next season, but I don't it would work as effectively. Littlefinger pushing Lysa out the moon door is a great end to a season; not as effective as just the end of one episode at the start of the next season. Plus, then Sansa would be absent from the last few episodes of that season.

I don't think new stuff for Arya really works. It would mostly be filler, plus there's so much other stuff to cover in a limited number of episodes, and since Arya's is the least connected to any other stories it probably doesn't warrant more time.

I'll have to disagree with Theon and ASOS. His experiences in the dreadfort just would make for nauseating television. Pretty much all he does there is get tortured; he sort of escapes once, but even that was just a trick. I don't think viewers would want to tune in to Theon being flayed every couple episodes. Plus, as with Arya in AFFC, there are a lot of other stories that need coverage and showing more of Theon detracts time from them.

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I'm really hoping we start getting longer seasons, I think aSoS would be much better suited to 13/14/15 episodes than two seasons

I agree with this. Two whole seasons is probably too much, but I don't like the idea of having season 3 all of ASOS and season 4 covers half of it with some AFFC/ADWD in the other half. The endings for the characters in ASOS need to be season ending moments, not episode ending moments that are continued the next week.

[DaveSumm]

I can understand it being a problem to cast Reek for a few episodes then not see him for ages, but why not simply rest Theon for a season? Surely characters get rested all the time in other shows....? Again, it goes back to what I said about there being no need to change some things: believing Theon was left for dead, then discovering him in the dungeons of the dreadfort a year later would be great for the exact same reason it was in the books. I think some people go overboard with the differences between TV and books, ultimately good book endings make good season endings, good book openers make good season openers etc etc.

[Padraig]

Arrogant Bastard, on 02 February 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

The endings for the characters in ASOS need to be season ending moments, not episode ending moments that are continued the next week.

This is where the realist in me gets rather loud.  We have been told that D&D are happy with 10 episode seasons.  They have also said that they will split aSoS into more than 1 season.  The most likely scenario (IMO) is that they add aFfC/aDwD material into S4.  It may not be ideal but that's why this is the realism thread.   And it can work.

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Plus, then Sansa would be absent from the last few episodes of that season.

That's hardly a big deal.  There is going to be a huge number of compromises in every season.  (Not that have to completely drop her anyhow.  Just slow down the pace).  And to be honest, it could be argued that the end of aSoS has too many huge moments.  And now some people expect every book to end like aSoS!  I'd feel quite happy if the Lysa scene was delayed (GRRM himself has said that because he was planning a 5 year gap, he had no choice but show them immediately).  And actually if you combine aSoS with some of the following books, you could still end S4 with Lysa-LF.  So many options...

As for Theon.  I'm not saying they have to show the really nauseating bits but they could show some of the less violent parts e.g. the escape.  Not like HBO hides from violence.  And I don't think he has to appear in every episode.  Or even every second episode.  The main thing is that D&D do have options.

Similarly, filler is such a loaded term.  Too much can be labelled filler.  If D&D feel that they need more Arya then they'll add more Arya.  I wouldn't label that filler myself.  Its just another option to keep the audience happy.  It may not even be needed.

[Javi Marcos]

I made this script of the 5 Seasons-5 Books
I think it's pretty realistic, beacuse each of them has a very strong Season Finale. And that is one the most important topics when we talk about a TV series (Dany's Dragons has been the Trending Topic of conversations with my friends, non-book readers, last year)

SPOILERS ahead, of couse

Season 1: Done

Season 2: ACOK
Season Finale: Blackwater (Tyrion, star of the show, has a big role), Jon with wildlings, Theon taking Winterfell (no Reek this season, remeber), Arya out of Harrenhall, Dany leaves Qarth

Season 3: ASOS I 10 episodes
Season Finale: Red Wedding (pretty enough), Reek betrays Theon and burns Winterfell, Jon leaves wildlings, Dany conquers Yunkai, Jaime loses his hand

Season 4: ASOS II and pieces of AFFC and ADWD 10 episodes
Season Finale: Ending of ASOS: Tyrion and Arya leaves Westeros, LF kills Lysa ,Jon Lord Commander ,Dany Queen of Mereen + full Iron Island and story of AFFC (Euron King, Victarion goes to search Dany) + Theon/Reek takes Moat Caitlin
)
Season 5 AFFC II + ADWD II + a bit of TWOW 12 episodes
Season Finale: Battles of Mereen and Winterfell (the beginning of TWOW) + Regular ending of ADWD for Jon, Jaime, Arya and Cersei.

[Ser Tom]

I'm sure I read somewhere (maybe winter is coming) that d&d are trying to film seasons 3 and 4 back to back to get round any problems with the younger cast members ageing. Also if you watch the comic con panel they talk about ending after season four with the end of swords. That seems like speculation though if the ratings stay high hbo will want to keep going after that. Also with the Kingslayer/Brienne storylines moved up a lot of feast will be done by the end of season four anyway. I was thinking about this in the summer when I was re-reading feast and it lends itself to being condensed, I don't think it will need a full season. I was really pissed off by the "meanwhile at the wall" at the end and that wont work for the tv audience so season 5 being a feast/dance mash up is on the cards. Now with that in mind your looking at 2015 before we get to the end of 5 and I think George should have finished winds by then so the tv show overtaking the books shouldn't be an issue.

[Padraig]

Ser Tom, on 03 February 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

...

Filming S3 and S4 back to back is merely a rumour.  I wouldn't rely on it.  The Kingslayer/Brienne story been moved forward is just another rumour.  I'd be wary of it too.

D&D did not talk about ending after S4.  They merely said that they really want to film the RW.

And yes, they are definitely going to mash up aDwD/AFfC if we get that far.

Javi Marcos, on 03 February 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Season 5 AFFC II + ADWD II + a bit of TWOW 12 episodes
Season Finale: Battles of Mereen and Winterfell (the beginning of TWOW) + Regular ending of ADWD for Jon, Jaime, Arya and Cersei.

Hmm.  Given how much time you have allowed aSoS, this season seems very packed.  I think 12 episodes is not going to happen either.

[Werthead]

Some people have asked why they didn't simply 'rest' characters rather than creating new stories for them which are unfaithful to the books. The simple answer to that is that they'll risk losing actors. Richard Madden has picked up a fair bit of traction on UK TV for his role in Thrones and then his role in Sirens (which was well-received with reasonable ratings, but then inexplicably cancelled by Channel 4). Cut him out of Season 2 and HBO might find he's not available to come back in Season 3 as he's been picked up to do something else. The same with leaving NCW out of S2 (though we know that at one point they were considering this).

I think we'll see the same going forwards. Leaving Alfie Allen out of Season 3 could risk the same thing happening. Some actors could be put on retainer to stop them taking on other projects but you can't do that to the entire cast. This is actually what sunk Deadwood: HBO's retainer options on the cast were about to run out and Milch refused to get his arse in gear and make Season 4 (due to his inexplicable religious surfer fascination), so the show had to be dropped: reconstituting the entire cast a year or two later when Milch deigned to return to the project proved impossible and impractical.

So yes, I have to agree that a major divergence is what will happen once the AFFC/ADWD time period is reached. The rules of television writing are substantially different from the rules of novel-writing and you can't drop major castmembers for whole seasons and expect them to be available when you need them back. Lost and The Wire could get away with dropping characters for 1-2 episodes at a time and then get back to them, or drop characters for a couple of seasons and then bring them back if they had a gap in their schedule, but there were limits on what they could do. GRRM doesn't have to worry about getting back to Sansa in The Winds of Winter and finding out she's unavailable because she's starring in a soap opera

[Morky_Pep]

I agree that it would be difficult, but other than the exception of Theons character, there will be no major absences until they reach AFFC.ADWD material. They couldnt do that with Robb and Jamies characters this season because its only the second season; this show is still new. If they make it through ASOS's material, which is the most intense of all, the show should be elevated to a famous level. They are already 3rd best HBO ratings from one season, and that is obviously going to grow. I know its kind of naive to say so, but this show coulod potentially change television, and the producers might find that these actors are dieing to come back after a season off, just to be a bigger part of the phenomenon. Most characters will have less screen time, but hopefully the actors will want to stay on just to keep the continuity of the show.

No doubt its going to be difficult, and there will be much and more changes as the series go on, but as long as they stick to the major plotlines and essence of the story, i will be satisfied, and believe that they could potentially finish the series... if Martin can bust out the books in time !

[master]

So the most likely scenario is that got will slowly get worse as the series progressess. Characters names have already been changed due to the producers being scared that they won't be able to tell the difference between robert arryn the eight year old and king robert the drunkard. They've already added unnessesary characters for absolutely no reason.

In the future they'll strip plotlines, remove important characters and add new important characters who don't exist. Eventually they'll create their own plots and the only thing that is good would be the name.

[Dragon greyscale]

Morky_Pep, on 03 February 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

They are already 3rd best HBO ratings from one season, and that is obviously going to grow. I know its kind of naive to say so, but this show coulod potentially change television, and the producers might find that these actors are dieing to come back after a season off, just to be a bigger part of the phenomenon. Most characters will have less screen time, but hopefully the actors will want to stay on just to keep the continuity of the show.

That's a little much, don't you think? Change television...that's the wire and sopranos. Long running shows that have an innovative angle (for totally different reasons).
GoT's first season is basically a historical drama with a touch of fantasy. And ultimately it is more about the drama than the magic. So, no i dont agree that it's groundbreaking. It's still a very good show though!

[Dragon greyscale]

master, on 03 February 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

So the most likely scenario is that got will slowly get worse as the series progressess. Characters names have already been changed due to the producers being scared that they won't be able to tell the difference between robert arryn the eight year old and king robert the drunkard. They've already added unnessesary characters for absolutely no reason.

In the future they'll strip plotlines, remove important characters and add new important characters who don't exist. Eventually they'll create their own plots and the only thing that is good would be the name.

I honestly think that no adaptation would be to your liking. Changing names... what is the deal with people complaining about that? You prevent confused nonreaders and readers know the backstory already, so you won't confuse them. It's not unnecessary: it's an improvement to gain popularity.
(Sidenote: phonetically, asha does not relate to osha like yara does to arya. If people cant see that, they're being a bit stubborn about the namechange.)
The plot is not sacred; if they can tweek it to suit television, i'd rather have that than a faithful but unwatchable show.

[Andrew Lantz]

Chill out guys. They can do SoS, aFfC and aDWD can be done very well in 3 seasons so long as the writers are creative.

[_Oberyn_]

Dragon greyscale, on 04 February 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

The plot is not sacred; if they can tweek it to suit television, i'd rather have that than a faithful but unwatchable show.

Isnt it? Some people might disagree .

But anyway only a drooling 5 year old might find the show unwatchable because they cant tell the the difference between Asha and Osha. And if people can keep up with the intricated politics in the show you can bee fairly certain they wont confuse Asha with Osha.

But forget everything else. Just from a viewers point of view i feel insulted that someone prezumed to make that change on my behalf. Thats the equivalent of someone in real life "tallllkiiiingg toooo yooouu reeeal slllllooooow sooo yooou caaan unnnderstand" dispite the fact that they just met you.