311 replies to this topic

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Crap, I stand corrected by GRRM:

Quote

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms...

If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man."

Apparently violet eyes can happen anywhere, I just assumed that among Westerosis they had to originate from Valyrian ancestry because until Ashara only Valyrians had them. Weeellll then, Lemore=Ashara it is. Game on!

[Jem]

Here are a couple of threads about Ashara-Lemore:

http://asoiaf.wester...s-septa-lemore/

http://asoiaf.wester...lemore-part-ii/


http://asoiaf.wester...s-ashara-dayne/

http://asoiaf.wester...dayne-thread-2/

And here are a few threads where the Lemore-Ashara thing is also discussed:

http://asoiaf.wester...don-and-ashara/

http://asoiaf.wester...-only-1-mother/

http://asoiaf.wester...-allyria-dayne/

[just an Other]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 26 January 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Crap, I stand corrected by GRRM:



Apparently violet eyes can happen anywhere, I just assumed that among Westerosis they had to originate from Valyrian ancestry because until Ashara only Valyrians had them. Weeellll then, Lemore=Ashara it is. Game on!

Violet eyes in the real world is an exaggeration. And nobody said that the Daynes are Valyrian.they do have purple eyes though. The limited physical description we have of Ashara Dayne is beautiful with dark hair and purple eyes. And I find hard to believe that Tyrion wouldn't notice the purple eyes of the woman he gauked at for a month or more.

[Lemon Cake]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 26 January 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Crap, I stand corrected by GRRM:
Apparently violet eyes can happen anywhere, I just assumed that among Westerosis they had to originate from Valyrian ancestry because until Ashara only Valyrians had them. Weeellll then, Lemore=Ashara it is. Game on!

Well, if it makes you feel better, you had me convinced for a while.

And yes, I'm really hoping it's Ashara.  That would be infinitely more interesting than her being Tyene Sand's mother.

[thetitansbastard]

Unless Ashara is Jon's mother, I see no reason for her to be alive. With only two books left, she doesn't seem to be a big enough peice of the puzzle otherwise.

[K1NGSLAYER]

thetitansbastard, on 26 January 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Unless Ashara is Jon's mother, I see no reason for her to be alive. With only two books left, she doesn't seem to be a big enough peice of the puzzle otherwise.

I agree with this, If she is Jon's mother, which I hope she's not, then I can see why she would be added to the story but I don't think that she can really do much this far in.

[Jem]

thetitansbastard, on 26 January 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Unless Ashara is Jon's mother, I see no reason for her to be alive. With only two books left, she doesn't seem to be a big enough peice of the puzzle otherwise.

Ashara could tell us a lot. She is a contemporary of Rhaegar, Elia, Brandon, Arthur, Lyanna, she knew Ned and Benjen when they were young. She was at court, she was Elia's attendant, she was part of the inner circle.

She could tell us about Harrenhal, the pre-Rebellion period, the Rebellion and it's immediate aftermath. She could give us some insight into Rhaegar's state of mind and his true relationship with Elia and Lyanna. She could know what really happened to Aegon and *dum-dum-DA!* she could know the truth about Jon Snow's parents.

Certainly she could reveal Ned's state of mind shortly after Lyanna's death and possibly any plans he had pertaining to any little bundles of joy he may have had with him. She could have been part of the team that kept Lyanna secretly supplied while she stayed at ToJ.

She could be party to any number of theoretical baby-swap theories that are going around. She allegedly had a secret lover and gave birth to a now conveniently absent child - whose child? Who was she sleeping with? Is it important? Could be.

If she didn't die, how did she survive? Who helped her? And why? Was it part of some bigger plot?

Ashara can fill in so many blanks and answer so many questions I am dying to know. I can't wait to meet her. Although, of course, we have met her - as Septa Lemore. Take it to the bank.

[K1NGSLAYER]

Jem, on 26 January 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Ashara could tell us a lot. She is a contemporary of Rhaegar, Elia, Brandon, Arthur, Lyanna, she knew Ned and Benjen when they were young. She was at court, she was Elia's attendant, she was part of the inner circle.

She could tell us about Harrenhal, the pre-Rebellion period, the Rebellion and it's immediate aftermath. She could give us some insight into Rhaegar's state of mind and his true relationship with Elia and Lyanna. She could know what really happened to Aegon and *dum-dum-DA!* she could know the truth about Jon Snow's parents.

Certainly she could reveal Ned's state of mind shortly after Lyanna's death and possibly any plans he had pertaining to any little bundles of joy he may have had with him. She could have been part of the team that kept Lyanna secretly supplied while she stayed at ToJ.

She could be party to any number of theoretical baby-swap theories that are going around. She allegedly had a secret lover and gave birth to a now conveniently absent child - whose child? Who was she sleeping with? Is it important? Could be.

If she didn't die, how did she survive? Who helped her? And why? Was it part of some bigger plot?

Ashara can fill in so many blanks and answer so many questions I am dying to know. I can't wait to meet her. Although, of course, we have met her - as Septa Lemore. Take it to the bank.

Ok, you win

[Revan Baratheon]

so why did she go into exile anyway? I mean,if she really is ashara dayne,then why go into hiding? Its not as if robert would have had her raped and killed just cause she was Ellia's companion...

[ChrisJM89]

Also in regards to Jem's post.

The meeting between Dany and Aegon would lead to the Ser Barriston seeing his one true love again :-D.

' "...Ashara..." the words came out in but a weak whisper yet the emotion in her Queensguard Commander's tone was obvious. The two had history of that Daenerys was certain. '

SL= AD

One can hope.

Edited by ChrisJM89, 26 January 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[thetitansbastard]

Jem, on 26 January 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Ashara could tell us a lot. She is a contemporary of Rhaegar, Elia, Brandon, Arthur, Lyanna, she knew Ned and Benjen when they were young. She was at court, she was Elia's attendant, she was part of the inner circle.

She could tell us about Harrenhal, the pre-Rebellion period, the Rebellion and it's immediate aftermath. She could give us some insight into Rhaegar's state of mind and his true relationship with Elia and Lyanna. She could know what really happened to Aegon and *dum-dum-DA!* she could know the truth about Jon Snow's parents.

Certainly she could reveal Ned's state of mind shortly after Lyanna's death and possibly any plans he had pertaining to any little bundles of joy he may have had with him. She could have been part of the team that kept Lyanna secretly supplied while she stayed at ToJ.

She could be party to any number of theoretical baby-swap theories that are going around. She allegedly had a secret lover and gave birth to a now conveniently absent child - whose child? Who was she sleeping with? Is it important? Could be.

If she didn't die, how did she survive? Who helped her? And why? Was it part of some bigger plot?

Ashara can fill in so many blanks and answer so many questions I am dying to know. I can't wait to meet her. Although, of course, we have met her - as Septa Lemore. Take it to the bank.

I don't think the backstory needs any further developing at this point.  We have Winter, Others, Dragons to worry about.  I'd much rather see Benjen come back to tell us who Jon's mom is

[Jem]

Revan Baratheon, on 26 January 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

so why did she go into exile anyway? I mean,if she really is ashara dayne,then why go into hiding? Its not as if robert would have had her raped and killed just cause she was Ellia's companion...

If she was a genuine Targ loyalist, she may have felt that the cause was defeated for now in Westeros and it would be a better use of her time and loyalty to go to Essos and help raise her friend Elia's son. Varys may have recruited her for just such a purpose, he may even have used her as a courier to take the baby out of the country. It makes a nice kind of symmetry for Aegon to have as his guardians his father's friend Jon and his mother's friend Ashara. Note: Aegon can be either real or fake in this scenario - Ashara may not have seen him for many months or even ever.

If there is any truth to her stillborn baby, she just may have wanted to get away from Westeros. Particularly if she was grieving that baby's father as Barristan suggested. She may have not wanted to marry anyone, so she chose to run away. Plus she did seem to be the adventurous, out-going type, so maybe she did it for a bit of excitement.

Maybe she did fear for her safety under Robert's regime, or maybe she feared that her family would be in danger because of both Ashara and Arthur's close friendships with the Targs. If Ashara and Arthur are both dead, then the family may not be in danger anymore.

ChrisJM89, on 26 January 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Also in regards to Jem's post.

The meeting between Dany and Aegon would lead to the Ser Barriston seeing his one true love again :-D.

' "...Ashara..." the words came out in but a weak whisper yet the emotion in her Queensguard Commander's tone was obvious. The two had history of that Daenerys was certain. '

SL= AD

One can hope.

Yes, exactly! Resulting in Dany's betrayal for love.

thetitansbastard, on 26 January 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

I don't think the backstory needs any further developing at this point.  We have Winter, Others, Dragons to worry about.  I'd much rather see Benjen come back to tell us who Jon's mom is

I guess it depends on where your interests lie. Personally I am extremely interested in the period between the tourney at Harrenhal and the Rebellion. I am actually more interested in the back story than the current story! I am always looking for clues to the past when I am reading these books, because not only do I find it very interesting, I think that the events of the past will be very influential on future events.

[corbon]

jarl the climber, on 26 January 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

What is the proof for this? I've gone back and looked at the couple of chapters that she is in and they didn't give a good description of her, the only clue that we get is that Connington thinks of her as Lady Lemore, indicating that she might be highborn. I guess the whole Hitchcock thing is interesting.

If you read through some of the other threads, which often have repeated references to posts with clues listed (since a lot of posters, like you, seem to completely miss them) you'll find a dozen or more connections that fit with Ashara being Lemore. Not including the Hitchcock thing.
Arguably even the non-reference to the eyes is a clue, since it would be a dead giveaway if Lemore had purple eyes, and its about the only time a character's eye colour is not mentioned during description (especially by Tyrion). Whats up with that? Ooohh, thats whats up with that!
Ashara being Tyene's mother has about 3-4 possible connections that fit.

just an Other, on 26 January 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

There are things that don't quite fit. Purple eyes are quite a striking feature no matter nice her brreasts are and I imagined she would be about the same age as Eddard which makes Lemore a bit old. She would be however someone who could vouch for Aegon's identity so her being Ashara as one of Elia's ladies-in-waiting would fit.

Read the other threads. Despite people repeatedly making the same mistake as you, the age is about dead set perfect. Especially considering Tyrion has a record of underestimating ages, and the only evidence of Lemore's age is Tyrions guess.
As for the eyes, see my comment above. The lack of eye colour doesn't actually tell us anything either way. But if you want to look at it at all, it is very suspicious that we didn't get an eye colour when we almost always do, so you have to wonder why we didn't get an eye colour...

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 26 January 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

I would really have like Lemore to be Ashara too as I have a love of grand patterns and mysteries but I'd have a hard time reconciling that with the eye issue.

See above, Really, there is no eye issue.

thetitansbastard, on 26 January 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Unless Ashara is Jon's mother, I see no reason for her to be alive. With only two books left, she doesn't seem to be a big enough peice of the puzzle otherwise.

Apart from the already mentioned reasons that she possibly gives us insight to so many details about the events around the war of the usurper, as an insider, she is also possibly uniquely placed to verify Aegon's identity.
She was his mothers handmaid. And a noted noblewoman from a family famous for its honour.
She raised him from a babe herself after the murder of his family.
Note that this works whether Aegon is real, or whether Varys has placed a fake Aegon in her hands. As Ashara Dayne there is probably no one in the world who would be more trusted in knowing the truth of Aegon's identity (even though Varys could have fooled her).

Revan Baratheon, on 26 January 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

so why did she go into exile anyway? I mean,if she really is ashara dayne,then why go into hiding? Its not as if robert would have had her raped and killed just cause she was Ellia's companion...

To raise Aegon. Umm, she's actually been doing exactly that, how could you possibly miss that?

Edited by corbon, 26 January 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[thetitansbastard]

Jem, on 26 January 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I guess it depends on where your interests lie. Personally I am extremely interested in the period between the tourney at Harrenhal and the Rebellion. I am actually more interested in the back story than the current story! I am always looking for clues to the past when I am reading these books, because not only do I find it very interesting, I think that the events of the past will be very influential on future events.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with all of this.  I just think there's just too much more of the current narrative to tell to fit much more in

[ChrisJM89]

Jem, on 26 January 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Yes, exactly! Resulting in Dany's betrayal for love.

That would be amazing I have to say!

He doesn't even have to 'betray' Dany but if Lemore/Ashara makes Barristan believe Aegon is 'Aegon VI' (Whether Real or Blackfyre, everyone thinks he is 'real' even himself ergo he is Rhaegar's son, even if his 'not'.) Barristan's duty as a member of whats left of the Targaryen Kingsguard would then be to Aegon first and Dany second as heir to Aegon. One of many, many possible scenarios.

[just an Other]

corbon, on 26 January 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Arguably even the non-reference to the eyes is a clue, since it would be a dead giveaway if Lemore had purple eyes, and its about the only time a character's eye colour is not mentioned during description (especially by Tyrion). Whats up with that? Ooohh, thats whats up with that

Tyrion:
So, did I forget to mention that the woman I was trying to figure out who she is, while I spent all this time with on a small boat has striking purple eyes.

That would be on par with her holding a big neon sign saying "I am Ashara Dayne" and the POV not considering this as something significant regarding her person.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Don't feel bad, Aurane lol.  When I first got here a few months back I was shocked by how much posters here had caught that never crossed my mind!

[corbon]

just an Other, on 26 January 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

Tyrion:
So, did I forget to mention that the woman I was trying to figure out who she is, while I spent all this time with on a small boat has striking purple eyes.

That would be on par with her holding a big neon sign saying "I am Ashara Dayne" and the POV not considering this as something significant regarding her person.

Tyrion never knew Ashara Dayne. She didn't play any significant historical part in 'history' and he was a small child still at Casterly Rock when she 'died'.
Her eyes may not show up purple all the time. Purple eyes usually don't and are often brought out best in certain light or with certain cosmetics.
Purple eyes are relatively common in parts of Essos.
Regardless, its something GRRM just can't show if she is Ashara and he wants to keep any mystery. Tyrion always gives us the description of the eyes (except with Jorah*). Why not this time? It seems very likely significant, and there is only one reason not too I can think of.

* Another occasion of a hidden identity that the readers could guess, though Tyrion less likely to. A big man with a bear surcoat could be many people (we can guess Jorah), but the same eye colour as Jorah just makes it obvious to the reader.

Edited by corbon, 26 January 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[ChrisJM89]

Corbon that is entirely correct.

Only those that knew Ashara knew of her eye colour. Unlike the Targ traits (Valyrian. Minority free cities/Essos trait now) which everyone knew about.

The fact Tyrion doesn't mention her eye colour raises the point. Unless of course he was paying more attention to her other 'pair' of assets.

The point of GRRM on eye colour is hmmm...

I am not Swedish, I'm English/British but I know why I have blues eyes. Firstly recessive genes and secondly through Nordic/Viking and Anglo-Saxon-Jute-Frisian forefathers through a mutation. A lack of melanin (which wasn't needed in the climate of northern Eurasia) which was passed down from generation to generation.

I have blue eyes. My dad has green-grey eyes and my mother brown eyes.

Ashara may well have the recessive gene of GRRM's fantasy violet/purple/Iliac eyes from a Valyrian in her family history and its come up again. Yet nothing at all related to the Targs and their Valyrian bannermen.

Anyway back on tangent, because Tyrion fails to mention the colour odds are theres a reason for it.

Did he fail to pay attention? Was he more interested in 'Aegon'? Or did GRRM realise he couldn't come out and say it.

Probably 2 and 3 I'd guess at.

[just an Other]

corbon, on 26 January 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

Tyrion never knew Ashara Dayne. She didn't play any significant historical part in 'history' and he was a small child still at Casterly Rock when she 'died'.
Her eyes may not show up purple all the time. Purple eyes usually don't and are often brought out best in certain light or with certain cosmetics.
Purple eyes are relatively common in parts of Essos.
Regardless, its something GRRM just can't show if she is Ashara and he wants to keep any mystery. Tyrion always gives us the description of the eyes (except with Jorah*). Why not this time? It seems very likely significant, and there is only one reason not too I can think of.

* Another occasion of a hidden identity that the readers could guess, though Tyrion less likely to. A big man with a bear surcoat could be many people (we can guess Jorah), but the same eye colour as Jorah just makes it obvious to the reader.

He almost ceratinly didn't know Ashara, that doesn't mean he doesn't know of her. Regardless he would have noticed her eyes if they were in any way significant. He most ceratinly noticed Aegon's.
Purple eyes don't exist in real life.
He spent a considerable amount of time with he rin the confines of a boat. He would have had the chance to see her eyes in all manner of lighting conditions.
The woman is obviously or claims to be Westerosi and in Westeros purple eyes are uncommon and associated with particular families (Targaryens, Daynes, Velaryons maybe) and Tyrion is someone who would know of such things.

She might be Ashara for all I know. As far as I'm concerned Martin will have a hard time explaining why Tyrion didn't provide a hint to her identity if that is ths case.