329 replies to this topic

[Verboten]

Zeromus, on 24 February 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

As a man, I am offended by misandry.

I too am offended by nonexistent concepts pulled out of thin air for the sole purpose of keeping the dominant gender dominant.

[headtrip_honey]

Verboten, on 24 February 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I too am offended by nonexistent concepts pulled out of thin air for the sole purpose of keeping the dominant gender dominant.

Your icon is perfect for this comment, tbh. As is your signature.

Edited by headtrip_honey, 24 February 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[ledlevee]

I don't think you can say the text is sexist without looking at the text as a whole.  You're focusing on one part, Cersei's story.  What about Arya, Brienne, and Dany?  They're all presented in a positive light for the most part and all three are strong female characters.  Why do you zero in on Cersei?  I think that GRRM has used Cersei's character to show how men realistically felt about women during the time period he's mirroring in this series.  He's bringing feminist discussions to the forefront with her character while contrasting her to Arya, Brienne, and Dany, characters who are also objectified (since that's the way it was in midieval times).  Obviously Cersei's actions, compared to the other three, are not the way one deals with such a situation.  If anyone wrote a novel that was supposed to take place in a midieval style society, and men in the book didn't objectify women, I would think the story was far-fetched, because that's how it really was back then.  Does that make it right?  No way.  And that's exactly the point I think GRRM is trying to make.  Things are wrong in the society of Westeros when it comes to how women are treated.  What created Cersei?  Part of it is her narcissism and selfishness, but part of it is also the society she's faced with, where women with power are looked at suspiciously, and women are only good for having sex with and making babies in the minds of most men.  Saying ASOIAF is a sexist text merely because Cersei's character is treated poorly is grossly overgeneralizing things and not looking at the full picture presented, IMHO.  Also, why is it that Cersei's character turned out the way she did, but Arya, Dany, and Brienne are strong female characters who didn't do the awful things that Cersei did, at least not to the same extent?  I believe Cersei had some major character flaws, similar to her brother Jaime, who's also vilified by the people of Westeros, that go far beyond sexism in the society she lives in.  Jaime and Cersei's sexual love for one another is a perfect example of their narcissism, having sex with your twin because they look like you and you love yourself to an unhealthy extent, because your father was a cold miser who never showed you the same love.  None of that has anything to do with Cersei being a woman.

[Thunderfist]

Tbh when it comes to Cersei I´m not really sure why people bring up her marriage to Robert as being central to her personality development. Sure it was a horrible marriage but Cersei seems to have been commiting terrible crimes long before she even heard the name Robert Baratheon. She most likely killed one of her friends at age 10 just because her friend had a crush on Jaime and the story that Oberyn tells Tyrion is pretty disgusting. She abused an infant to the point where Jaime had to intervene before she caused permanent damage. And who knows if this was the only time she treated her younger brother that way. One could always argue that the relationship with Tywin made her this way but I really don´t see how Robert can be blamed. And btw, didn´t she sleep with Jaime on her wedding day, in that case Robert wasn´t the only one not putting the effort in to make a happy marriage.

[headtrip_honey]

Thunderfist, on 24 February 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Tbh when it comes to Cersei I´m not really sure why people bring up her marriage to Robert as being central to her personality development. Sure it was a horrible marriage but Cersei seems to have been commiting terrible crimes long before she even heard the name Robert Baratheon. She most likely killed one of her friends at age 10 just because her friend had a crush on Jaime and the story that Oberyn tells Tyrion is pretty disgusting. She abused an infant to the point where Jaime had to intervene before she caused permanent damage. And who knows if this was the only time she treated her younger brother that way. One could always argue that the relationship with Tywin made her this way but I really don´t see how Robert can be blamed. And btw, didn´t she sleep with Jaime on her wedding day, in that case Robert wasn´t the only one not putting the effort in to make a happy marriage.

It's not like Cersei's abuse at the hands of her husband and her subsequent hatred of him had ANY influence on her actions in the story AT ALL....

[Thunderfist]

headtrip_honey, on 24 February 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

It's not like Cersei's abuse at the hands of her husband and her subsequent hatred of him had ANY influence on her actions in the story AT ALL....

Where did I say that it did not have any influence on her actions in the story? What I did say was that she was most likely a horrible person long before their marriage

[headtrip_honey]

Thunderfist, on 24 February 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Where did I say that it did not have any influence on her actions in the story? What I did say was that she was most likely a horrible person long before their marriage

I see. But as the abuse affects the story, I'd say it's then ripe for discussion.

And if you don't think being raped by your husband has any affect on your psyche, regardless of whether or not you were a "good" person, then I'd look again.

[Thunderfist]

headtrip_honey, on 24 February 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

I see. But as the abuse affects the story, I'd say it's then ripe for discussion.

And if you don't think being raped by your husband has any affect on your psyche, regardless of whether or not you were a "good" person, then I'd look again.

Please read the words that I actually post, don´t make up opinons for me that I have never expressed in any way, shape or form, I´d prefer to keep a potentially interesting discussion honest and fair.

Ofc being in an abusive relationship is damaging to a person. But, if you are able to commit murder for no valid reason whatsoever at age 10, as well as trying to cause permanent damage to an infant, then you appear to be somewhat of a lost cause. At least in my opinion

[headtrip_honey]

Thunderfist, on 24 February 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

Please read the words that I actually post, don´t make up opinons for me that I have never expressed in any way, shape or form, I´d prefer to keep a potentially interesting discussion honest and fair.

Ofc being in an abusive relationship is damaging to a person. But, if you are able to commit murder for no valid reason whatsoever at age 10, as well as trying to cause permanent damage to an infant, then you appear to be somewhat of a lost cause. At least in my opinion

But you're keeping her confined to "good" or "bad". People are more complex than that.

She may have been a bad person content to go with the flow, but her abuse made her also a psychologically damaged person. And since her abuse contributed to bad things she did (murder Robert, for one. While I don't blame her for it, murder is a "bad" thing to do), I consider it completely up for discussion.

And I find it odd that you're focusing on her abuse since it hasn't been a main factor in this thread.

[Thunderfist]

headtrip_honey, on 24 February 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

But you're keeping her confined to "good" or "bad". People are more complex than that.

She may have been a bad person content to go with the flow, but her abuse made her also a psychologically damaged person. And since her abuse contributed to bad things she did (murder Robert, for one. While I don't blame her for it, murder is a "bad" thing to do), I consider it completely up for discussion.

And I find it odd that you're focusing on her abuse since it hasn't been a main factor in this thread.

Yes people are more complex than simply being good or bad. But for different persons, the scales might tip differently to one side or the other, some are probably fairly balanced in the middle but some are extremes on either end. I think that we agree that she appears to be a psychologically damaged person, but we might differ on the opinion on when exactly she became this way, and which the major contributing factors were.

I may have gone a bit off topic, it was a while since I read the start of this thread and tonight I´ve only read the last 5-6 pages. I guess I wanted to voice my opinions about the character in general and why I have those. I read that some people seem to dislike her based on her sexual activities and I wanted to adress some of the more valid, at least in my opinion, reasons for the dislike.

[Queen Cersei I]

Zeromus, on 24 February 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:


No. I said that a generalised hatred of men is as wrong as a generalised hatred of women. Misandry is indefensible, as is misogyny. I never at any point stated that misandry is evidenced more in society than misogyny.


Yes, misandry is indeed hateful and offensive. But I still fail to see why in God’s name you are accusing me of it. I wrote a thread criticizing the way readers constantly attack a female character with sexually based insults… and you called me a misandist for it. Really? Honestly, as far as I search, I cannot find any basis whatsoever to your accusations. Your one attempt to futher explain why you had accused me of misandry only served to further confuse me as to what the heck you are tyring to say.

You basically seem to be claiming that my objecting to negative stereotypes about women in these novels makes me a misandist. Something that, once again, makes no sense.

Which is a shame, because the possible stereotypes invoked by male characters in these novels, and if negative—or misandist—messages were being sent there would be a fascinating topic for discussion. You could have started a new thread to discuss this issue, and questioned whether people were being more sensitive to negtative female stereotypes than negative male stereotypes. However, after your unsupported and faintly ridiculous accusations of misandry on my part, you have—fairly or unfairly-- lost quite a bit of credibility in my eyes.

[voodooqueen126]

ledlevee, on 24 February 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I don't think you can say the text is sexist without looking at the text as a whole.  You're focusing on one part, Cersei's story.  What about Arya, Brienne, and Dany?  They're all presented in a positive light for the most part and all three are strong female characters.  Why do you zero in on Cersei?  

Because Arya is female in name only, Brienne is often called boring (her narrative voice is female) despite the fact that she takes on male roles), Dany is frequently criticised for her sexuality since ADWD.
Because Cersei is feminine, she personifies male fears.
I should just like to say here and now that Randyll Tarly's little speech to Brienne, whilst it was supposed to be GRRM's idea of an evil mysoginst was not really the most dangerous sexism in the books.
Because frankly, I am not too concerned about being excluded from the armed forces due to quite sensibel fears about sexual assault, as a woman my ability to join or not to join the armed forces is not a big deal.
But what does threaten women, is the inability to own and control property, since women with property/money are far less likely to be victims of domestic violence. Yet Cersei is treated like a villain for wanting to inherit Casterly Rock, when actually her desire to inherit property is far more reasonable then Brienne's desire to be a knight.

Edited by voodooqueen126, 25 February 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[Queen Cersei I]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

@ Queen Cersei I

Because if someone is deliberately putting sexist messages into a book, if someone is deliberately putting in messages that are intended to lead the reader to sexist conclusions, then he or she has to have done this on purpose. He or she is doing something deliberately sexist, which makes that person a sexist, for having done something deliberately sexist.

This last little point, you should note, is entirely your own conclusion, based on your own interpretation of what I "must really mean." Your idea that a person cannot write a sexist text or be the originator of a work of art containing sexist stereotypes and messages without being a sexist as a person in day to day life is funny. Have you ever watched TV? Seen a movie? Read another book?

[Queen Cersei I]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:


 GRRM is asking us to look at the unfairness of this, the brutality of it. And then we come to Cersei's walk- I felt bad for Cersei reading about it. I think GRRM intended for us to read it and feel bad for Cersei, I will grant that I've only read it once so maybe I don't know the scene as well as you. But the point is, I see many and more examples of GRRM using sexist actions and sexist characters to call the reader into questioning the sexism of Westeros.

One of ASoIaF's strongest points, in my opinion, is that it never loses sight of the fact that it is about injustice. I don't see GRRM encouraging us to slut-shame Cersei, I see him asking us to empathize with an incredibly evil character. Indeed, to empathize with the fact that she resents that, as a woman, society will not accept her as a ruler or a person with power.


Sorry, your rather generalized blanket statement that every sexist message in these books is intentional, and merely the author criticizing the society of Westeros itself, simply does not always gel with the text itself. All though you do do an impressive job of casting me in the role of a rabid GRRM hater, accusing him of all sorts of horrible things, and yourself as the noble one standing up for GRRM, when all I have done is disagree with you about whether the text itself contains intentional sexist messages, characterizations, and themes.

OnionAhaiReborn said:



He or she is doing something deliberately sexist, which makes that person a sexist, for having done something deliberately sexist.

Really? Because if someone does a deliberately sexist thing, that automatically makes one an official, card carrying sexist? Because I have done and said some sexist things over the course of my life, and I do not think that I qualify as a sexist.  

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:


 Because if someone is deliberately putting sexist messages into a book, if someone is deliberately putting in messages that are intended to lead the reader to sexist conclusions, then he or she has to have done this on purpose. He or she is doing something deliberately sexist, which makes that person a sexist, for having done something deliberately sexist.

Nope. If someone is “putting deliberate messages in a book” they are… putting deliberate messages in a book. When I accuse GRRM of putting what appears to be a systematic, sexist message in these books, I am doing that—not calling GRRM--- the human being, who I have never met-- a sexist. In order for someone to be defined as “a sexist” one must know their  thoughts, feelings, views, and actions in real life. I know none of these things about GRRM. So in addition to being rude and inappropriate, me calling GRRM “a sexist” would be ridiculous—I simply don’t know all that much about the guy.

But I do know the text itself. And, rereading various books and given great consideration to this issue, I’ve noticed some very conscious and deliberate sexist messages perpetuated throughout the book. And I have every right to bring this issue up. What I have no right to do? Call the author himself sexist, or claim to know what he believes in real life. (Which I never have done and never will do.) I have no idea what GRRM intends when he writes, I can only guess. However, I can point it out when, due to his clear artistic choices, he is sending certain messages that are sexist in nature.

Feel free to keep accusing me of insulting the author on a personal level when I criticize his books, and occasionally, question some themes and intentional messages therein. However, I  am not going to stop criticizing the text, or calling problematic issues in it when I see them. And I’m not even going to bother addressing accusations of calling the author sexist, since as I’ve said countless times now—I never have, and I never will call GRRM anything or insult him on a personal level.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 25 February 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[Rapsie]

voodooqueen126, on 24 February 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Yet Cersei is treated like a villain for wanting to inherit Casterly Rock, when actually her desire to inherit property is far more reasonable then Brienne's desire to be a knight.

Something which many fans get equally upset about when Tyrion is going to be denied the Rock. So what's good for the goose.....

[Doran II]

Queen Cersei I, on 25 February 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

snip

I think any incidental cases of sexism i see in the text will not stand out to me as part of GRRM's adaptation to a modern society where sexism is present, but rather of his deliberatedly built Westerosi society where theres a lot of oppression towards women, for example, Cersei's walk of shame, there was strongly sexist content to it, does it means Grrm is sexist? no does it mean the sexism was indental? also no, because that is part of the religion, the Faith of the Seven, that has a very strong bias against women and that resembles a lot the Catolic Church.
If you think that there are passages in this series where the sexism was unintentional by Grrm i think a quote would be more ilustrative.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

@ Queen Cersei I

Deliberate:
1- characterized by or resulting from careful and thorough consideration <a deliberate decision>
2-characterized by awareness of the consequences <deliberate falsehood>

You are stretching credulity to the point of absurdity to suggest that GRRM has deliberately, or, as charactrized by or or resulting from careful and thorough consideration, placed systematic sexist messages in the text of ASoIaF repeatedly over the course of 15 years, and then say 'hey but I'm not calling the guy sexist or anything!' Don't be ridiculous. Understand what your words mean.

If you notice sexism in the books but you think it's unintential, then you can say you don't think GRRM is sexist. If you notice sexism in the books and you call it deliberate, then you are saying GRRM is sexist. Even if you want to deny it up and down after the fact, this is exactly what your words are saying. The best I can say for you at this point, is that it seems clear that you don't truly know what the words you are using mean, so you are probably being honest when you say you don't think GRRM is sexist. But your words are saying it.

If you want to say: "I have no idea what GRRM intends when he writes, I can only guess," you cannot also say, "I’ve noticed some very conscious and deliberate sexist messages perpetuated throughout the book." If they're conscious and deliberate they are intentional!

And I will retirate that I think the text is actually intentionally and deliberately anti-sexist:

OnionAhaiReborn, on 24 February 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

And I don't see the sexism in the text. You mostly focus on Cersei, a character that, I agree, is unfairly targeted by posters for her sexuality. And you come back to the Walk of Shame which, I'll admit, I have only read once. You draw attention to Cersei comparing Tywin's treatment of his father's mistress to her own treatment now, and you highlight that Cersei refers to Tywin's father's mistress as a 'whore' and then repeats the action that Tywin's mistress took in her walk of shame.

I, like most readers, was horrified when I first read the story of the walk of shame that Tywin forced his father's mistress to go on. I think most readers felt this way, I think it was put into the text, by GRRM, as another example of Tywin's brutality. GRRM is asking us to look at the unfairness of this, the brutality of it. And then we come to Cersei's walk- I felt bad for Cersei reading about it. I think GRRM intended for us to read it and feel bad for Cersei, I will grant that I've only read it once so maybe I don't know the scene as well as you. But the point is, I see many and more examples of GRRM using sexist actions and sexist characters to call the reader into questioning the sexism of Westeros.

One of ASoIaF's strongest points, in my opinion, is that it never loses sight of the fact that it is about injustice. I don't see GRRM encouraging us to slut-shame Cersei, I see him asking us to empathize with an incredibly evil character. Indeed, to empathize with the fact that she resents that, as a woman, society will not accept her as a ruler or a person with power. Is GRRM a clunky writer sometimes? Yes. But I think more than anything he is trying to write against the very themes you accuse him of deliberately putting into the text.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 25 February 2012 - 09:34 AM.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I agree with OAR that the use of the word "deliberate" can only imply that it is the author's knowing intent to be sexist. When you say he's deliberately inserting sexist tropes into the books, and that these instances of sexism in the books are abundant that logically implies one of several options:
1. The author is sexist
2. The author is intentionally saying things that are sexist, knowing that they're sexist, and doesn't really care since he keeps doing it.
3. The author is deliberately inserting sexist tropes into the book to highlight the sexism of that world's society, and to subvert those tropes.

Points 1.  and 2. above are basically the same thing to me. They're just a difference in semantics, but as far as I'm concerned, when a person resorts to sexist actions or expresses sexist ideas repeatedly, knowingly, and unapologetically, the whole person IS sexist, but I'll play along and leave some room open for those who beg to differ.

I personally think GRRM falls into number 3, but he does so very clunkily. I've never understood those who seem to think that their favorite authors are infallible and can't make any errors in consistency, or may even write badly sometimes. *GASP.* Cersei in many ways is BADLY WRITTEN, as in some of her crap isn't believable or consistent with the image we got of her before she got a POV. Asha, before ADWD isn't believable at all, and only becomes a little less so after we see her detailed machinations WRT the power grab on the iron isles. It seems that many male authors have issues with creating multidimensional, believable female characters, because, omg, women are so damned hard to understand and it couldn't possibly be that they might actually have very similar motivations and desires to men because they're like from Venus or something.

Martin does a good job with other female characters though, like Catelyn, Brienne, Sansa (one of my favs), and though I don't like her at all after ADWD I have to admit Dany is well-developed and multidimensional.

I actually had the completely opposite reaction to the shame walk as Alexia. While before, I thought GRRM's treatment of Cersei was sexist, (and maybe GRRM himself was sexist) because of all the things I've repeated ad nauseum----Cersei's internal dialogue revealing her to the only woman who consciously understands the sexism she has to suffer, her penis envy, her stupidity and incompetence as a villain, way-too-kickass-Asha, etc-----the sympathy Cersei's walk invoked made me think Martin was just putting the magnifying glass on the misogyny of Westerosi society in order to make the reader examine the circumstances under which Cersei developed.

After reading through the last few pages of this thread, I have to say I'm glad the conversation has turned toward discussing our society, and the way Martin, as a product of it, may be influenced towards certain characterizations and stereotypes of women. He does rehash tropes like the way too hardcore and kickass powerpuff girl like Asha, and Arya, if you're counting children. Gender doesn't matter to them! Rape culture doesn't matter to them! They don't think about this shit, they just kick ass and take names! There's also the way the text seems to direct readers to heap criticism on the sexual misconduct of the female characters while glossing over the escapades of the men; see Tyrion's raping and LF's sexual bartering compared to Cersei and Arriane's sexual manipulations and bartering. We absolutely should be talking about these things, as well as why, in our society, the first, and strongest insults that come to mind for a woman are "whore," "slut," or "cunt.," when she does something wrong, no matter what that something is. There are no equivalent insults for men that directly allude to sexuality or sexual misconduct. So once again, it seems like society keeps repeating the message that both a woman's value and her demise lie in her sexuality, and that's how she'll be judged and spoken about no matter what her actions. GRRM is a product of that society, and he could do a better job of rising above it. He does try to address the more blatant issues or privilege, what women don't have access to, and the varying methods and outlets available becaues of gender (coutesy armor, Randyl Tarley's attitidue to Brienne, the Olenna method vs. Cersei method to power), but he fails when it comes to subtle issues. That's probably because those subtle issues of perception and stereotyping are still completely and utterly prevalent i our (industrialized and first world) society and those who come from a position of privilege, like GRRM, are desensitized and don't understand, and are therefore doomed to perpetuate the injustice.

That being said, I take issue to some of these ideas being flung around that if you don't like many of the female characters, or happen to like the male characters better, as a woman, you're somehow buying into the subtle sexism. I've already said that I love Sansa, but I think Dany as of ADWD is an idiot, and while overall I think Catelyn is a very competent, intelligent, and well-developed female character, I absolutely refuse to whitewash her treatment of Jon, which many posters have done, because that was outright cruel. Oh, and also my favorite character is Jon, who is male. Is that a problem? I judge characters based on their actions and I highly prize kindness, compassion, and reason. Catelyn is sorely lacking in the first two, when it comes to Jon. If the female characters fall short of those traits significantly more often than the male, I don't think to myself that I'm just going to pick a bunch of women as my favorites anyway, and whitewash all their faults as characters. I question the author's motives, the author's biases, and the influences, conscious or subconscious, that he's revealing when he develops these characters.

[Phat Walda]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 26 February 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

I agree with OAR that the use of the word "deliberate" can only imply that it is the author's knowing intent to be sexist. When you say he's deliberately inserting sexist tropes into the books, and that these instances of sexism in the books are abundant that logically implies one of several options:
1. The author is sexist
2. The author is intentionally saying things that are sexist, knowing that they're sexist, and doesn't really care since he keeps doing it.
3. The author is deliberately inserting sexist tropes into the book to highlight the sexism of that world's society, and to subvert those tropes.

Points 1.  and 2. above are basically the same thing to me. They're just a difference in semantics, but as far as I'm concerned, when a person resorts to sexist actions or expresses sexist ideas repeatedly, knowingly, and unapologetically, the whole person IS sexist, but I'll play along and leave some room open for those who beg to differ.

I personally think GRRM falls into number 3, but he does so very clunkily. I've never understood those who seem to think that their favorite authors are infallible and can't make any errors in consistency, or may even write badly sometimes. *GASP.* Cersei in many ways is BADLY WRITTEN, as in some of her crap isn't believable or consistent with the image we got of her before she got a POV. Asha, before ADWD isn't believable at all, and only becomes a little less so after we see her detailed machinations WRT the power grab on the iron isles. It seems that many male authors have issues with creating multidimensional, believable female characters, because, omg, women are so damned hard to understand and it couldn't possibly be that they might actually have very similar motivations and desires to men because they're like from Venus or something.

Martin does a good job with other female characters though, like Catelyn, Brienne, Sansa (one of my favs), and though I don't like her at all after ADWD I have to admit Dany is well-developed and multidimensional.

I actually had the completely opposite reaction to the shame walk as Alexia. While before, I thought GRRM's treatment of Cersei was sexist, (and maybe GRRM himself was sexist) because of all the things I've repeated ad nauseum----Cersei's internal dialogue revealing her to the only woman who consciously understands the sexism she has to suffer, her penis envy, her stupidity and incompetence as a villain, way-too-kickass-Asha, etc-----the sympathy Cersei's walk invoked made me think Martin was just putting the magnifying glass on the misogyny of Westerosi society in order to make the reader examine the circumstances under which Cersei developed.

After reading through the last few pages of this thread, I have to say I'm glad the conversation has turned toward discussing our society, and the way Martin, as a product of it, may be influenced towards certain characterizations and stereotypes of women. He does rehash tropes like the way too hardcore and kickass powerpuff girl like Asha, and Arya, if you're counting children. Gender doesn't matter to them! Rape culture doesn't matter to them! They don't think about this shit, they just kick ass and take names! There's also the way the text seems to direct readers to heap criticism on the sexual misconduct of the female characters while glossing over the escapades of the men; see Tyrion's raping and LF's sexual bartering compared to Cersei and Arriane's sexual manipulations and bartering. We absolutely should be talking about these things, as well as why, in our society, the first, and strongest insults that come to mind for a woman are "whore," "slut," or "cunt.," when she does something wrong, no matter what that something is. There are no equivalent insults for men that directly allude to sexuality or sexual misconduct. So once again, it seems like society keeps repeating the message that both a woman's value and her demise lie in her sexuality, and that's how she'll be judged and spoken about no matter what her actions. GRRM is a product of that society, and he could do a better job of rising above it. He does try to address the more blatant issues or privilege, what women don't have access to, and the varying methods and outlets available becaues of gender (coutesy armor, Randyl Tarley's attitidue to Brienne, the Olenna method vs. Cersei method to power), but he fails when it comes to subtle issues. That's probably because those subtle issues of perception and stereotyping are still completely and utterly prevalent i our (industrialized and first world) society and those who come from a position of privilege, like GRRM, are desensitized and don't understand, and are therefore doomed to perpetuate the injustice.

That being said, I take issue to some of these ideas being flung around that if you don't like many of the female characters, or happen to like the male characters better, as a woman, you're somehow buying into the subtle sexism. I've already said that I love Sansa, but I think Dany as of ADWD is an idiot, and while overall I think Catelyn is a very competent, intelligent, and well-developed female character, I absolutely refuse to whitewash her treatment of Jon, which many posters have done, because that was outright cruel. Oh, and also my favorite character is Jon, who is male. Is that a problem? I judge characters based on their actions and I highly prize kindness, compassion, and reason. Catelyn is sorely lacking in the first two, when it comes to Jon. If the female characters fall short of those traits significantly more often than the male, I don't think to myself that I'm just going to pick a bunch of women as my favorites anyway, and whitewash all their faults as characters. I question the author's motives, the author's biases, and the influences, conscious or subconscious, that he's revealing when he develops these characters.

[Trinuviel]

Morte, on 24 February 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Actually, I think that putting us in Cersei's head as late as in AFfC was on of the major mistakes Martin made regarding her character: We get into Cersei when she is already in the middle of a psychotic episode, not being able to think outside her paranoid box.
As I have a relative who does indeed have a psychosis with paranoid elements, I found Cersei's chapters very interesting to read - but not at all sexistic or unfair or unrealistic. On the contrary: Reading Cersei's thoughts, looking at her scheming and comparing her thoughts to what might be the reality around her, I felt as if I was in the head of this relative: All you think as exaggerated.... , well, it isn't. A person in a psychotic episode does behave just as Cersei: They see enemies behind everyone (even family); being paranoid they begin to envy everyone for, well, just living their lifes; they make stupid plans they think will work, while on the other hand seeing helping hands as enemies and good advises as treason; they don't listen, they hear, but it's like talking to a wall the moment you try to talk them out of their plans or try to tell them about why their plans will not work, etc. etc. Yes, it is very depressing and frustrating, as there is no possible way to reach them in a normal way.
So, I was very impressed (and horrified) how well Martin did portrait my relative. Actually, my relative suffers from the followups of a non-threated postpartum psychosis, in her case even including the same unhealthy attachment to her child as we see with Cersei and her children.

So no, I don't see Cersei as a symbol of the misogyny of Martin. As with other strong female characters however, I do see people in the fandom reacting unjust and plainly sexistic toward Cersei - but I don't know if they do that intentionally or if they simply do not think, taking the first insult they can find to put on her.
Also, I do see a lot of female posters ("a lot" has nothing to do with majority, or many, just they are not few) having problems with strong female characters who could make their favorite male character look less importent. Something I do not see the first time, but quite often then a work of fiction does include male and female protagonist: If the female doesn't have "supporting character" tatooted on her forhead, a lot of female fans will outright hate her if she is on par with or better when the male protagonist in even as little as one discipline.



Dito. Also I hope that the Walk of Shame does wake Cersei out of her episode and she will go back to her AGoT- and CoK-self, as her pondering about the events of the first book may indeed indicate.


On a sidenote: You are all way to fast for me, still hope this posting is not completly out of contest now. ;(

This is an interesting take on Cersei, one that I hadn't considered before and it explains a lot about her. It's actually kind of weird for me that I haven't picked up on this earlier since I have a parent with some kind of paranoid psychosis disorder and usually is rather hypersensitive about picking up clues on this - maybe it's just because this is impacting too much on my personal life right now.