329 replies to this topic

[Serie]

IMHO the key difference between Cersei (and other characters we love to hate) and the Others is that Cersei is an "enemy" coming from within. The Others are tagged as enemies from AGoT day one. They were introduced as enemies coming from the outside. The reader reads it, gets used to it and eventually gets over it. But Cersei is an every-page reminder of a behavior that is not acceptable. Cause no one expects from the Queen of Westeros to plot/scheme/act without taking into consideration the peace and prosperity of the realm.
BTW I like Cersei. In her worst day I just pity her. Don't know why

Edited by Serie, 28 January 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[Queen Cersei I]

Serie, on 28 January 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:


BTW I like Cersei. In her worst day I just pity her. Don't know why 


Har! No way. As the great man said before he got stabbed through the eye in a barroom brawl (and/ or national espionage incident) "tis better to be hated than to be pitied."*

I think Cersei would agree with that. (Or, at least, she will before she goes through her obvious self-destruction/ insanity/ middle age weight gain downward spiral....)

*He also said, "He who liketh not tobacco and young boys is mad." Viva la Elizabethans, amirite?

Faceless Cat, on 28 January 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

For all we know, the Others *are* female - it's not as if any of the unlucky sods who encountered them so far got the chance to examine their private bits. No need to make assumptions just because they wear armour rather than dresses, is there?

Given their obviously symbolic super hard, ultimate power phallic shaped swords (and their grunting way of thrusting such weapons into the soft, warm flesh of their opponents), I’d say that the others are clearly either male or are, like Cersei, suffering from a major case of penis envy. But, honestly, who doesn’t want to have a penis? And who isn’t obsessed with this part? As another great man said, “The phallus is the bridge to the future.”**

**Yes, somebody actually said that. Seriously.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 28 January 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

I think the two main reasons the Others don't get as much hate on the boards is:

1. The Others' motivation, nature, and purpose is left purposely vague and unknowable, and it's hard to hate a giant question mark. Gregor, Joffrey, Cersei, Ramsay, etc. we see on the page, do horrible things, and we know their selfish, short sighted reasons for wanting to do them. That makes them much easier to get angry about than a vague threat that sparely appears.

2. What we *do* know of the Others has them as a group so completely alien to the sensibilities and values to the people of Westeros and Essos that they may as well be another species entirely, whether they are or not (I think it's likely the Others are humans who have died and resurrected themselves so many times over that they're something new entirely, hence so much attention on UnCharacters and the emphasis on losing humanity every time you're brought back, but that's neither here nor there). It's hard to hate what they do anymore than it's hard to hate a direwolf for chasing prey. Human villains, though, can reason, negotiate, discuss, and empathize with other humans, and yet still do terrible and harsh things to their fellow humans, which again, is easier to hate than the group that may as well be a separate species entirely.

Edited by Nagisa Furukawa, 28 January 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[The King in the South]

Queen Cersei I, on 28 January 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Har! No way. As the great man said before he got stabbed through the eye in a barroom brawl (and/ or national espionage incident) "tis better to be hated than to be pitied."*

I think Cersei would agree with that. (Or, at least, she will before she goes through her obvious self-destruction/ insanity/ middle age weight gain downward spiral....)

*He also said, "He who liketh not tobacco and young boys is mad." Viva la Elizabethans, amirite?


Given their obviously symbolic super hard, ultimate power phallic shaped swords (and their grunting way of thrusting such weapons into the soft, warm flesh of their opponents), I’d say that the others are clearly either male or are, like Cersei, suffering from a major case of penis envy. But, honestly, who doesn’t want to have a penis? And who isn’t obsessed with this part? As another great man said, “The phallus is the bridge to the future.”**

**Yes, somebody actually said that. Seriously.

Penises are actually far more annoying than you actually think. They're always trying to but into my conversations when I'm talking to girls and should you get hit there...

Then again, passing the moon's blood doesn't sound that great either.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

The Others are introdruced in GoT as some huge existential threat to all of Westeros. Right after that, we're whipped into the human, political world, where all these people are busy playing their little Game of Thrones, completely unaware of this "existential threat" to all of them, which is supposed to be bigger than any of their political squabbles or power grabs. AND THEN we see Cersei, and realize that she's involved in 70% of this stuff that's distracting Westeros from it's HUGE EXISTENTIAL THREAT ZOMG! So now everyone's like, bitch get out the way, ice zombies are coming. The hate goes to Cersei because in the face of this seemingly overwhelming threat to all of humanity, she seems extra petty and short-sighted. I mean, you can't hate ice zombies, what are they supposed to do? NOT sip your frozen brains like a slushie? That's ice-zombie nature 101.

Queen Cersei I, on 28 January 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

I’d say that the others are clearly either male or are, like Cersei, suffering from a major case of penis envy. But, honestly, who doesn’t want to have a penis? And who isn’t obsessed with this part? As another great man said, “The phallus is the bridge to the future.”**

**Yes, somebody actually said that. Seriously.

No mortal man is so well-endowed that his penis spans all the way to the future. Ice zombies on the other hand....

Edited by RevengeOfTheStarks, 28 January 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I am seriously tired of the slut-shaming and sex-specific insults directed at Cersei though. She has someone killed, so she get called a whore? What does her vagina have to do with killing someone?

[Queen Cersei I]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 28 January 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

No mortal man is so well-endowed that his penis spans all the way to the future. Ice zombies on the other hand....

Heh, yeah, and D.H. Lawrence's claims to being "a great man" are actually someowhat shaky... but he did write a (imo, near porno) book that contained that very line, uttered without a trace of irony. And I had to read the book and write a paper on it for a college course. And the book that contains that line? One of the defining novels of the 20th century, if my English prof was to be believed.

Sometimes I wonder if all of the "Great Novels" of our time are  not the result of a bunch of middle aged white guys getting drunk one night 50+ years ago, then drawing random titles from out of a hat or something....

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Wait, just to go off topic for a sec, which book was that? All I've ever read by him is Sons and Lovers. I gave Lady Chatterly a try but got bored a few pages in. I imagine any book that contains the line about phallus bridges has to have entertainment value at least.

Edited by RevengeOfTheStarks, 28 January 2012 - 11:43 PM.

[Serie]

Queen Cersei I, on 28 January 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Har! No way. As the great man said before he got stabbed through the eye in a barroom brawl (and/ or national espionage incident) "tis better to be hated than to be pitied."*

I think Cersei would agree with that. (Or, at least, she will before she goes through her obvious self-destruction/ insanity/ middle age weight gain downward spiral....)

no doubt Cersei would agree with that! but as the other great man said :"It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo?". And then Frodo gave his finger for you/us/everyone as many are aware
hate is such a strong emotion for me to handle. And useless.

Quote

But, honestly, who doesn’t want to have a penis? And who isn’t obsessed with this part?

No, really? I was always puzzled with the penis envy theory... who would want to have penis??? it must be really uncomfortable

Edited by Serie, 29 January 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[redriver]

Reading this thread makes me hope Cersei continues her rehabilitation arc and ends her days as a devotee of the Faith,giving all her worldly possessions to the smallfolk and washing their feet on a daily basis.

The Bards sing songs of her wonderful virtuosity and the Others melt in the warm glow of her righteous radiance.

And if the series ends with Cersei smiling upon her adoring masses with birds twittering ,so much the better.

[ElizaMartell]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 28 January 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

I am seriously tired of the slut-shaming and sex-specific insults directed at Cersei though. She has someone killed, so she get called a whore? What does her vagina have to do with killing someone?

Seriously! Call her out on being cruel merciless and hypocritical in some circumstances if you must, but the bulk of your criticism shouldn't be about her being a 'whore'. I think that's why GRRM's 'punishment' for Cercei was so cringy yet important. Cercei was 'punished' for all the wrong reasons.

[Miryana]

Nagisa Furukawa, on 28 January 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

1. The Others' motivation, nature, and purpose is left purposely vague and unknowable, and it's hard to hate a giant question mark. Gregor, Joffrey, Cersei, Ramsay, etc. we see on the page, do horrible things, and we know their selfish, short sighted reasons for wanting to do them. That makes them much easier to get angry about than a vague threat that sparely appears.

Quote

It's hard to hate what they do anymore than it's hard to hate a direwolf for chasing prey. Human villains, though, can reason, negotiate, discuss, and empathize with other humans, and yet still do terrible and harsh things to their fellow humans, which again, is easier to hate than the group that may as well be a separate species entirely.

Good points. The Others are an abstract supernatural threat that might be out to destroy all humanity - but after five books, they haven't even gotten past the Wall and we haven't seen much serious destruction (either prolonged and widespread or individual and intense in the moment) caused by them. Cersei has been a prominent character for five books and has spent them ordering the murders and tortures of innocents, adults and children, who are in the way of what is not hers but which she happens to want. We're in her head and see that though she feels she has been badly treated in her life, she experiences only the most miniscule twinges of regret (rarely even that) for treating others the same way or for finding entirely different and more extreme ways to hurt people. She's human, yet she feels entitled to cause massive amounts of suffering for which she feels no guilt since she rarely recognises any connection between herself and another human being (her children being the exception - but other women's children are fair game). She's also a hypocrite with a stunning lack of self-awareness. Not attractive traits. (Personally, I find Cersei's misogyny in particular to be very unpleasant, and I don't give her a pass for it just because Tyrion can often be even worse.)

The Others are an element of fantasy. Characters like Cersei, Littlefinger and Ramsay (the tyrant, the user, the psychopath) show humanity at its worst. I don't think it's any wonder they inspire more heated emotions; they are the kind of people you hear about on the news or fear having to deal with in real life.

[The Drunkard]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 28 January 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

I am seriously tired of the slut-shaming and sex-specific insults directed at Cersei though. She has someone killed, so she get called a whore? What does her vagina have to do with killing someone?

She uses it to get people to kill for her. Not saying I agree with people constantly calling her slut/whore/hussey/etc, but she does often use her lady bits to get people to do evil things for her.

[Phat Walda]

Quote

"How is it that myself and my brother, Tyrion, in the first three books display basically the same code of morality and levels of moral righteousness, but that he is beloved by readers everywhere, whereas I am hated? The issue is presentation."

Whaaaaaaaa??? You cannot be serious.

Edited by Natasha Kingston, 29 January 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[The King in the South]

The Drunkard, on 29 January 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

She uses it to get people to kill for her. Not saying I agree with people constantly calling her slut/whore/hussey/etc, but she does often use her lady bits to get people to do evil things for her.

So does Arianne Martell, Margaery Tyrell, etc

Natasha Kingston, on 29 January 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Whaaaaaaaa??? You cannot be serious.

Tyrion's  responsible for more innocent deaths than Cersei by a considerably large margin. He's also commited several rapes, framed various people, unknowingly made several peasants cannibals, and several other equally disturbing thingd

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Natasha Kingston, on 29 January 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Whaaaaaaaa??? You cannot be serious.

I think it might start to get controversial up in here now that Tyrion's name has cropped up. He does have a singer boiled into stew because he makes up a song about Tyrion and his secret whore and uses it for blackmail. If Cersei had boiled a singer who made up a song about her and Lancel, I bet everyone would think that that's just classic Cersei. "That slunt, stewing someone just for calling her out on her filthy, filthy ways." For some reason, we forget this event when it comes to Tyrion, but he definitely has a ruthless streak comparable to Cersei's.

[Phat Walda]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 29 January 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

I think it might start to get controversial up in here now that Tyrion's name has cropped up. He does have a singer boiled into stew because he makes up a song about Tyrion and his secret whore and uses it for blackmail. If Cersei had boiled a singer who made up a song about her and Lancel, I bet everyone would think that that's just classic Cersei. "That slunt, stewing someone just for calling her out on her filthy, filthy ways." For some reason, we forget this event when it comes to Tyrion, but he definitely has a ruthless streak comparable to Cersei's.

I'm not saying he can't be ruthless, but that's not the same as a "moral code". He doesn't decide to have the singer killed ONLY because it would be bad for him if things got out, but also because he's in love with Shae (however little she may deserve it), and he's terrified of what might happen to her if they're found out. (And it turns out he's right to fear, based on what happens to the other girl that Tywin mistakenly thinks is Tyrion's lady.)

Also, he is very empathetic with a bunch of other people along the way, and he doesn't take these kind of measures unless there are extreme circumstances, while Cersei just gets bored with people and sends them below stairs to be cut into peices and have who knows what done to them. I have yet to see her show any empathy for anyone EVER, she's constantly concerned with herself and her power struggles. She uses her children as a smokescreen, but the only child she seemed to really care about and show affection for was the sociopath Joffrey, and the others she never seems to think of in any way other than how they are being used or how SHE can use them. I don't see any evidence that she genuinely cares for them other than what she TELLS people, which doesn't count at all.

Basically, has Tyrion done some fucked up shit? Sure. But other than the red-headed whore, I don't feel like he's ever been cruel to people just for the sake of it. (Also, who has he raped? I am not saying it hasn't happened, but I can't remember it.) Cersei just seems like as much of a sociopath as Joffrey, plus she's paranoid; she wants what she wants, and if anyone doesn't agree with her about ANYTHING they're guilty of treason, working for the Tyrells, hate her because she's a woman, or whatever. It's NEVER that maybe she's a short-sighted asshole with terrible ideas that are going to fucking ruin everything.

Edited by Natasha Kingston, 29 January 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Natasha Kingston, on 29 January 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

I'm not saying he can't be ruthless, but that's not the same as a "moral code". He doesn't decide to have the singer killed ONLY because it would be bad for him if things got out, but also because he's in love with Shae (however little she may deserve it), and he's terrified of what might happen to her if they're found out. (And it turns out he's right to fear, based on what happens to the other girl that Tywin mistakenly thinks is Tyrion's lady.)

Also, he is very empathetic with a bunch of other people along the way, and he doesn't take these kind of measures unless there are extreme circumstances, while Cersei just gets bored with people and sends them below stairs to be cut into peices and have who knows what done to them. I have yet to see her show any empathy for anyone EVER, she's constantly concerned with herself and her power struggles. She uses her children as a smokescreen, but the only child she seemed to really care about and show affection for was the sociopath Joffrey, and the others she never seems to think of in any way other than how they are being used or how SHE can use them. I don't see any evidence that she genuinely cares for them other than what she TELLS people, which doesn't count at all.

Basically, has Tyrion done some fucked up shit? Sure. But other than the red-headed whore, I don't feel like he's ever been cruel to people just for the sake of it. (Also, who has he raped? I am not saying it hasn't happened, but I can't remember it.) Cersei just seems like as much of a sociopath as Joffrey, plus she's paranoid; she wants what she wants, and if anyone doesn't agree with her about ANYTHING they're guilty of treason, working for the Tyrells, hate her because she's a woman, or whatever. It's NEVER that maybe she's a short-sighted asshole with terrible ideas that are going to fucking ruin everything.

I more or less agree with you about the main differences between Tyrion and Cersei until ADWD, so we'll leave that be.

I think Cersei does truly care about Tommen and Myrcella too, but Joffrey was her clear favorite. Joffrey aside from sharing personality traits with her, was her firstborn and the heir to the throne, she put a lot of her hopes and ambitions into him and kind of lived vicariously through him a bit. She's clearly very protective of Tommen, but she (wrongly) thinks he's lacking in some of the leadership qualities she saw in Joff, which were actually his worst traits. She's probably motivated to mold Tommen to be more like Joff because she does care about him deeply, but just because behavior is motivated by mother-love doesn't mean it's positive behavior. Sometimes it can be downright damaging.

Tyrion raped that Illyrio's slave girl, and that red-headed whore. In both cases he acknowledged to himself that the girl did not want him but was in no position to say no, and consciously decided he would take her anyway. Also he raped Tysha but he was also a victim there.

I definitely don't consider Cersei a "good person" but sociopath is a word I reserve for the likes of Ramsay Bolton and Gregor Clegaine. Cersei is not pathological, she just has very shaky morals. Sociopaths have no internal moral compass, sociopathy is a mental disorder, it marks someone as being definitively abnormal, as anyone who is capable of hunting, raping, and then killing human beings has to be. That's not Cersei.

What I find interesting, is that of all the ambitious women in these series who have their ambitions dampened by sexism, Cersei is the only one who ever thinks to herself that it's because she's a woman. Even though, it certainly is true that all of these women are held back simply because they are women. She's the only one who thinks it, but she's a terrible person, so it's like we're being set up to think, no, it's not because you're a woman, but because you're pretty darned close to evil. I have a problem with this. I wouldn't have as much of a problem if Asha also had these thoughts while she was getting shafted at the Kingsmoot, because Asha seems generally nice and capable of making wise decisions. I would like to have a foil to the  "No Cersei, it's not because you're a woman, it's because you're stupid and a bitch," something along the lines of " Yes [insert character here], you're so capable but they're keeping you down for arbitrary sexist reasons." This whole thing is quite sketch to me.

[The King in the South]

Natasha Kingston, on 29 January 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

I'm not saying he can't be ruthless, but that's not the same as a "moral code". He doesn't decide to have the singer killed ONLY because it would be bad for him if things got out, but also because he's in love with Shae (however little she may deserve it), and he's terrified of what might happen to her if they're found out. (And it turns out he's right to fear, based on what happens to the other girl that Tywin mistakenly thinks is Tyrion's lady.)

Also, he is very empathetic with a bunch of other people along the way, and he doesn't take these kind of measures unless there are extreme circumstances, while Cersei just gets bored with people and sends them below stairs to be cut into peices and have who knows what done to them. I have yet to see her show any empathy for anyone EVER, she's constantly concerned with herself and her power struggles. She uses her children as a smokescreen, but the only child she seemed to really care about and show affection for was the sociopath Joffrey, and the others she never seems to think of in any way other than how they are being used or how SHE can use them. I don't see any evidence that she genuinely cares for them other than what she TELLS people, which doesn't count at all.

Basically, has Tyrion done some fucked up shit? Sure. But other than the red-headed whore, I don't feel like he's ever been cruel to people just for the sake of it. (Also, who has he raped? I am not saying it hasn't happened, but I can't remember it.) Cersei just seems like as much of a sociopath as Joffrey, plus she's paranoid; she wants what she wants, and if anyone doesn't agree with her about ANYTHING they're guilty of treason, working for the Tyrells, hate her because she's a woman, or whatever. It's NEVER that maybe she's a short-sighted asshole with terrible ideas that are going to fucking ruin everything.

I'm honestly not sure if you've actually bothered to read Cersei's POVs judging from your pconclustions.
Cersei does not inflict pain on others for pleasure, she never has. Any "evil" act Cersei has commited has been for one or two reasons
1. protecting herself
2. protecting her children

Whether or not that is "moral" is debatable, but that does not make her a sadist or anything whatsoever like what she's often portrayed as. She doesn't get "bored" with people, she discovers that they are supposedely spying for the Tyrells, just like when Tyrion discovers a group of men supposedely working for Stannis he has antler's nailed to their heads.

Tyrion does exactly the same things. He kills people to protect
1. himself
2. those dear to his heart.

As for the singer thing. If Tyrion had actually "loved" Shae (and yeah, Shae is suchhhhhhhhhhhhhh a bad person in that relationship compared to Tyrion) he wouldn't have killed the Singer, whom was her friend. Instead the reason he killed the Singer was because he had dirt on Tyrion that could hurt him. Then he tossed the guy in some commoner's stew, such a heartfelt gesture.

I don't think Cersei uses her children as "smokescreens" either. Her relationship with Tommen isn't the same as the one with Joffrey, because Joffrey was murdered, and so Cersei's primary and only goal is now to protect Tommen, even if that means potentiall causing stress for him. I highly suggest you read AFFC if you don't remember this. She literally spends half her POV's thinking of whether Tommen has enough guards when he sleeps, etc.

And yes, Tyrion has raped women. I am a man myself so I do not even speak from a womens perspectives, but the scenes in ADWD with the girl in Selhorys and Pentos were very clearly rape, by our own descriptions. You could even make a case for several of his encounters with Shae if you really wanted. And if we hold Cersei to said standards, we must hold Tyrion to said standards. Of course of all his endeavors, Tysha is the clearest example here. His arguement for his actions at the time is ridiculous too. Did he really believe a 13 year old girl was actually a trained whore?

Personally, I'm fine with someone calling Cersei insane, vengeful, etc, but they had better be also willing to call Tyrion mysogonistic, spiteful, etc, because that's what they are.

Edited by The King in the South, 29 January 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The King in the South, on 29 January 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I'm honestly not sure if you've actually bothered to read Cersei's POVs judging from your pconclustions.
Cersei does not inflict pain on others for pleasure, she never has. Any "evil" act Cersei has commited has been for one or two reasons
1. protecting herself
2. protecting her children

I'm with you on Tyrion, I don't think his actions can be defended. But I don't think all of Cersei's actions are to protect herself and her children. She could have very easily gotten herself and her children killed by maintaining an incestuous relationship with Jaime and birthing bastards by him. She then starts plotting to kill King Robert, another thing that could have gotten her killed and her children killed. Stannis and Jon Arryn realize something is up and are on to her. Renly is maybe possibly onto it as well, at the very least she has made an enemy of him, so he starts plotting with Loras to replace her with Margaery. If she really wanted to protect herself and her children she shouldn't be doing the things she is doing, starting with the incest and ending with the plotting to murder the King.

When Ned warns her that he knows the truth and will tell Robert, she doesn't flee to the Free Cities or to Casterly Rock to protect her children, she rolls the dice and risks her life and the lives of her children so that she can be the power behind the Joffrey on the Iron Throne. Now, we know that she was expecting Robert to die on the hunting trip (and I know Varys says one way or another they were going to kill the King on the trip but the plot still seems like a shaky thing to bet on), and we also know that Ned is too noble to ultimately beat her in the power struggle that comes after Robert dies. But does she know that? I'm sure she has her hunch, but she doesn't know for certain. If Ned had taken Renly's advice and seized Joffrey, she and her children would likely have died. It's not clear that she has Littlefinger in her pocket at this point, so maybe she also has a hunch about his loyalty but if he had actually bought the Gold Cloaks for Ned, again, they're all dead (not that Ned would kill them, but Stannis probably would when he took the Throne).

We know how it works out and Cersei wins, but given how things easily could have gone another way, it's clear that she is rolling the dice in a big way. If she wanted to protect her children, she wouldn't be doing the things she was doing, she would have fled. Her real motivation is that she wants power, and if she is ever going to be Queen Regent Robert needs to die before Joffrey comes of age. This leads her to gamble the lives of her children on the hope that she can pull of the assassination of the King and the ascension to power afterward.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 29 January 2012 - 02:50 PM.