469 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

Last posts from v.16

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MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

As for Sansa, what surprises me is that she should be horrifiend because of all the danger and the threat he poised, and instead of throwing it away and feel disgusted, which would have been the logical thing to do, she wraps herself in his bloody cloak. Why? It's very strange. Didn't she understant the scene the way we did, because it seemed very scary to me. Did I miss something while I was reading that scene. It always felt very ambiguous and confusing to me.

Littlespider replied:

Yes, you're right: it is a very odd move on her part. And she had been very frightened of him up until the moment when she touched his face.

So, this is not a particularly sophisticated explanation, but I wonder if one is not really needed here. Occasionally I will feel like total ass. Cramps, lack of chocolate and/or booze in my house, cat pissed on the couch, hundreds of tasks I'm behind on, missing somebody, bad weather, you name it. And sometimes, it makes me just want to curl up under a blankie. Now, I know that none of those quotidian problems I've just cited are comparable to what Sansa's been through: holed up waiting for a battle to be over, having to listen to an increasingly wasted Cersei catastrophize about the possible outcome of the battle, the presence of Ilyn Payne, seeing wounded men, the Hound being a creeper in her room, et al.

I think she really, really wanted a blankie. And there it was. But then it becomes a kind of security blanket for her, at least in her mind.

Edited by brashcandy, 29 January 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[Lemon Cake]

brashcandy, on 29 January 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

I think she really, really wanted a blankie. And there it was. But then it becomes a kind of security blanket for her, at least in her mind.

Yep, a security blanket that she kept. Speaking of which, I assumed the maids emptied out her room after Sansa had disappeared from King's Landing and it was clear she wasn't returning any time soon. I wonder if they ever came across that cloak? I can only imagine them rifling through that trunk and finding it on the bottom, all smoky and bloody and pukey, and being like, "...the fuck is this? That girl was weird."

[brashcandy]

In a similar way to how Sansa is able to modify unfamiliar lessons to fit her worldview, I think she reappropriates the meanings of those cloaks, and is able to find some importance and value in them long after the wearers have discarded them in frustration and anger. Whether it is kneeling on Barristan's cloak, or wrapping herself in Sandor's and then making the decision to keep it in her cedar chest, Sansa's actions allow for the wearers to have a chance to reform/redress their previous mistakes and find honour in their lives again. Particularly with Sandor, it's a challenge to him to be a better man, and to live up to not what the cloak represented for him, but what it now means to her.

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 29 January 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Last posts from v.16


Littlespider replied:

Yes, you're right: it is a very odd move on her part. And she had been very frightened of him up until the moment when she touched his face.

So, this is not a particularly sophisticated explanation, but I wonder if one is not really needed here. Occasionally I will feel like total ass. Cramps, lack of chocolate and/or booze in my house, cat pissed on the couch, hundreds of tasks I'm behind on, missing somebody, bad weather, you name it. And sometimes, it makes me just want to curl up under a blankie. Now, I know that none of those quotidian problems I've just cited are comparable to what Sansa's been through: holed up waiting for a battle to be over, having to listen to an increasingly wasted Cersei catastrophize about the possible outcome of the battle, the presence of Ilyn Payne, seeing wounded men, the Hound being a creeper in her room, et al.

I think she really, really wanted a blankie. And there it was. But then it becomes a kind of security blanket for her, at least in her mind.

For the Seven! I was writing a post and when I tried to send it the thread was already locked!
Wow, this is like a conspiration against Sandor fans!! ( I'm joking, mods, only joking, but you were faster at locking than I was at writing!!)

What you said is very interesting, Littlespider, I also think she needed comfort, and surprisingly he found the idea of wrapping herself in Sandor's cloak comforting, despite his shocking and dangerous behaviour.
Perhaps she can see through his ferocity because she is somehow a wolf and the Hound's ferocity isn't so scary for her (sometimes she even misses this ferocity), because somehow she knows he wouldn't harm her.

I used to have a hound, he was mean and he even bit some people (in the end, my father had to put him down ) but I loved that dog and I was sure he would never bite me. I cried and cried for that dog. I'll never forget him and I was a little girl then.


I also think that Sandor and Petyr are something like potential suitors for her, in a twisted way, but somehow they are. The cloaks they offer her and the way both of them offered her their protection and tried to instruct her and teach her seem to suggest this. They are also attracted to her.

Even the show gives the impression to emphasise that there's something like a love (?) triangle here. Littlefinger is the one to tell Sansa about the Hound's past and the scene seems to link the three of them in a way that seemed weird for us, readers. But perhaps there was a reason to establish this link and there's really going to be some sort of triangle.

Also, Sansa notices things like their breath. Too often Sandor's smells of wine, it doesn't smell nice while littlefinger's smells of mint, which is quite nice, I think. Surprisingly, she doesn't like Littlefinger's kisses but fantasises about Sandor's imagined kiss, despite the booze smell.

Their manners also contrast, the way Petyr talks is courteous and nice, too nice, I'd say it's nearly saccharine. The way Sandor talks is harsh and uncouth (even his voice is harsh and raspy), but Sandor speaks the truth and he's honest, while Petyr is treacherous and deceitful. Ned mistrusted the Hound and trusted Littlefinger, but Petyr betrayed him and it cost him his life and House Stark's downfall, while the Hound protected both or his daughters. I think Sansa couldn't have endured her captivity in KL if it hadn't been for him. He wasn't much help, but he had no one but him, all the others were enemies there. He was her only support, however feeble it was ( and he felt very guilty about not having protected her better, as we got to know later).

Again, appearances seem to be deceiving, because, Petyr, who seemed a friend, who was suave and nice left House Stark mortally wounded while the Hound, who seemed brutal, cruel and evil, tried to help Sansa and then Arya.

Edited by MaryaStone, 29 January 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[littlespider]

MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

I used to have a hound, he was mean and he even bit some people

Me too! My old boy was a mean motherfucker (though he was terrified of kittens for some reason). I think this is one of the reasons why I like the Hound.

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Also, Sansa notices things like their breath. Too often Sandor's smells of wine, it doesn't smell nice while littlefinger smells of mint, which is quite nice, I think. Surprisingly, she doesn't like Littlefinger's kisses but fantasises with Sandor's, despite the booze smell.

Ugh. Bad breath = total dealbreaker.

Quote

Their manners also contrast, the way Petyr talks is courteous and nice, too nice, I'd say it's nearly saccharin. The way Sandor talks is harsh and uncouth (even his voice is harsh and raspy), but Sandor speaks the truth and he's honest, while Petyr is treacherous and deceitful. Ned mistrusted the Hound and trusted Littlefinger, but Petyr betrayed him and it cost him his life and House Stark's downfall, while the Hound protected both or his daughters. I think Sansa couldn't have endured her captivity in KL if it hadn't been for him. He wasn't much help, but he had no one but him, all the others were enemies there. He was her only support, however feeble it was ( and he felt very guilty about not having protected her better, as we got to know later).

Again, appearances seem to be deceiving, because, Petyr, who seemed a friend, who was corteous and nice left House Stark mortally wounded while the Hound, who seemed brutal, cruel and evil, tried to help Sansa and then Arya.

This is a nice comparison/contrast of these two characters. Both are also sons of minor houses as well.

[Yvonesan]

MaryaStone said:

Quote

As for Sansa, what surprises me is that she should be horrified because of all the danger and the threat he poised, and instead of throwing it away and feel disgusted, which would have been the logical thing to do, she wraps herself in his bloody cloak. Why? It's very strange. Didn't she understant the scene the way we did, because it seemed very scary to me. Did I miss something while I was reading that scene? It always felt very ambiguous and confusing to me.

I think this perfectly points out something we all need to remember. Just because we interpret something a particular way doesn't mean we're necessarily right. I didn't read that moment in the same way as a lot of people and therefore I could well be wrong and everyone else right ... or maybe no-one is right. GRRM is a wonderful writer and often writes the unexpected, so I think we should remain open to other possibilities every time. Since Sansa remembers a kiss when there was none and keeps the cloak in her hope chest, she obviously doesn't look back at that episode with disgust or terror in her heart. I think the reason why it was written ambiguously is because there's more to be revealed and we're not meant to be sure about anything at this point in time ...more to be revealed in Sansa's story at least, if not Sandor's.

[Lemon Cake]

Does Sansa ever notice Littlefinger's minty fresh breath? I only remember Lysa commenting on it. Not that it makes a huge difference one way or another, I'm just curious.

[Ednawolf]

Do you think that Sansa huddling under Sandor's cloak -- both when he covered her with it in Joff's torture scene and again after the BBB scene -- foreshadows a future marriage to him?

[ElizaMartell]

Ednawolf, on 29 January 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Do you think that Sansa huddling under Sandor's cloak -- both when he covered her with it in Joff's torture scene and again after the BBB scene -- foreshadows a future marriage to him?

No.

[Lemon Cake]

Ednawolf, on 29 January 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Do you think that Sansa huddling under Sandor's cloak -- both when he covered her with it in Joff's torture scene and again after the BBB scene -- foreshadows a future marriage to him?

No. I don't foresee a marriage for them, or even a long-term relationship. Just a brief, hot, severely fucked-up fling, then he goes off to die a (hopefully) glorious death, and she marries [insert one of several possible characters here] instead.

[MaryaStone]

Lemon Cake, on 29 January 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

No. I don't foresee a marriage for them, or even a long-term relationship. Just a brief, hot, severely fucked-up fling, then he goes off to die a (hopefully) glorious death, and she marries [insert one of several possible characters here] instead.

But don't you think it would be terribly cliched? Books and films have used this trope endlessly: If a character has done bad things in his past but has some redeeming qualities, he always has to die a glorious death to deserve redemption and to make sure the audiende will cry like babies.

I'm sick of this, it always works ( I sobbed when Snape died, like a baby) but it's incredibly predictable.

Something bittersweet and less trite would be for the beautiful princess to leave the grand life she could have had and fade into the sunset with her ogre after rejecting all the princes' offers.
I'd prefer what Fiona did when she chose Shrek. I don't want the Hound to atone and redeem himself and turn all well-behaved and tame. I like the rough ogre in him. Less anger and more self acceptance is what he needs but if he turns bland and starts saying how sorry he is for being rude to Sansa ...

It was Shreck who went to rescue princess Fiona and not a good-looking prince. Also, the Hound risked his life to rescue Sansa from the raging mob, and not any dashing knight. Let her keep her ogre, there are handsome knights aplenty but there is only one Sandor Clegane.
We liked the Hound because he was fierce, don't Lancel him, please....

Edited by MaryaStone, 29 January 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[ElizaMartell]

But wouldn't that Shrek storyline be also cliche as well? :|

[Ednawolf]

@ ElizaMartell -- Your avatar is absolutely adorable.


I don't want Sandor to die a horrible and tragic death. I want him to be gentled and

Lemon Cake, on 29 January 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

No. I don't foresee a marriage for them, or even a long-term relationship. Just a brief, hot, severely fucked-up fling, then he goes off to die a (hopefully) glorious death, and she marries [insert one of several possible characters here] instead.

What about the marriage bed dream of Sansa's?

[Lemon Cake]

MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Something bittersweet and less trite would be for the beautiful princess to leave the grand life she could have had and fade into the sunset with her ogre after rejecting all the princes' offers.
I'd prefer what Fiona did when she chose Shrek.

I guess this is just where personal preference comes in, because to me this ending would be incredibly trite and cliched. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I don't want the Hound to atone and redeem himself and turn all well-behaved and tame. I like the rough ogre in him. Less anger and more self acceptance is what he needs but if he turns bland and starts saying how sorry he is for being rude to Sansa ...

I don't want him to lose his sarcasm and irreverence, and I definitely don't want him to lose the swearing. But I absolutely, positively believe that the Hound needs to redeem himself and atone for the way he treated Sansa, particularly on the night of the Blackwater battle. He assaulted her and threatened her life, and he really needs to make up for that. In fact, if he doesn't atone for it and yet he and Sansa still hook up romantically, I will be throwing my book across the room.

Also, while at times Sandor was simply rude to Sansa, there were other times when he was flat-out cruel. For example, the comment about how her father's legs twitched after he was beheaded was appalling and just nasty. He said some pretty shitty stuff to Arya, too, and I do think he owes one big damn apology to both of them.

[MaryaStone]

ElizaMartell, on 29 January 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

But wouldn't that Shrek storyline be also cliche as well? :|

There's nothing new under the sun and all the stories have been told thousands of times, but I think Shreck's storyline is more realistic and less trite than the anti-hero dies heroically after saving the woman he loves like crazy and she conveniently marries someone else.

Edited by MaryaStone, 29 January 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[ElizaMartell]

MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

There's nothing new under the sun and all the stories have been told thousands of times, but I think Shrecks storyline is more realistic and less trite like the anti-hero dies heroically after saving the woman he loves like crazy and she conveniently marries someone else.

Cliches are cliches, regardless of whether one has been used more than the other. The Shrek storyline is hardly realistic as is one where both characters have a fling then move on with their life. Its just different scenarios following a different cliche.

And surely there must be more to discuss about Sandor than whether or not he's going to pick out the flowers for his and Sansa's wedding? :|

Edited by ElizaMartell, 29 January 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[MaryaStone]

Lemon Cake, on 29 January 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I guess this is just where personal preference comes in, because to me this ending would be incredibly trite and cliched. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.




I don't want him to lose his sarcasm and irreverence, and I definitely don't want him to lose the swearing. But I absolutely, positively believe that the Hound needs to redeem himself and atone for the way he treated Sansa, particularly on the night of the Blackwater battle. He assaulted her and threatened her life, and he really needs to make up for that. In fact, if he doesn't atone for it and yet he and Sansa still hook up romantically, I will be throwing my book across the room.

Also, while at times Sandor was simply rude to Sansa, there were other times when he was flat-out cruel. For example, the comment about how her father's legs twitched after he was beheaded was appalling and just nasty. He said some pretty shitty stuff to Arya, too, and I do think he owes one big damn apology to both of them.

I know he behaved horribly but saying sorry doesn't mean much to me. It did when I was younger but not any more. I used to pester my husband with my 'say you're sorry, say you're sorry' stuff. Truly, if he's sorry ( and the Hound is) it will show. Actions speak louder than words.

He'll do something for her, perhaps even die for her, but he's no expert at talking pretty, I'm afraid.

Apart from our tastes, we can't say that the ending in which the anti-hero gives up his life to atone for his evil past actions isn't trite and cliched because it's been used endlessly.

Edited by MaryaStone, 29 January 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[Lemon Cake]

ElizaMartell, on 29 January 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

And surely there must be more to discuss about Sandor than whether or not he's going to pick out the flowers for his and Sansa's wedding? :|

I don't know if you've followed these threads for very long, but if you have then I'm sure you're aware that, among other things, we've talked about Sandor's relationship with Arya, his relationship with Gregor, his possible relationship with his sister, the reasons behind why he's so prone to Manly Tears, his horse Stranger, what kind of "therapy" he's undergoing on the Quiet Isle, all the many clues that hint to him being the gravedigger, whether or not he had a squire, the enmity between him and Tyrion Lannister, and many other topics.

MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

I know he behaved horribly but saying sorry doesn't mean much to me. It did when I was younger but not any more. I used to pester my husband with my 'say you're sorry, say you're sorry' stuff. Truly, if he's sorry ( and he is) it will show. Actions speak louder than words.

Well, yes. That's exactly what I mean when I say he needs to atone for it. I think he needs to do something for her. Something really, really important. I don't know what, but he needs to do something huge to even begin making up for assaulting her.

MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

but he's no expert at talking pretty, I'm afraid.

Never said he was, but he still needs to apologize (as well as showing he's sorry by his actions). He doesn't get a pass on it just because he isn't good with words.

MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Apart from our tastes, we can't say that the ending in which the anti-hero gives up his life to atone for his evil past actions isn't trite and cliched because it's been used endlessly.

Never said it wasn't, just that I personally find it preferable to the other scenario.

Edited by Lemon Cake, 29 January 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[MaryaStone]

A fling would be OK with me, what I don't understand is why he has to die after the fling ends, that is what I don't like. Why can't he fade into the sunset riding Stranger? Why can't he become a lordling after helping defeat the Others and have the wife and the children he seemed to yearn for when he accepted the white cloak ( do you remember when he said nobody cared about him, that nobody cared what he did?)?

Edited by MaryaStone, 29 January 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Yvonesan]

MaryaStone, on 29 January 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

There's nothing new under the sun and all the stories have been told thousands of times, but I think Shreck's storyline is more realistic and less trite than the anti-hero dies heroically after saving the woman he loves like crazy and she conveniently marries someone else.

Yep. And even though there's more to Sandor than merely his relations with Sansa, she does still form a huge part of his story. It's impossible to think of him without thinking of Sansa at some point. And given her story, it's impossible to think of Sandor as anything but her knight in shining armor, only half of his face is scarred... the least important matter really.