469 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

The singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss "prediction" by Cersei is interesting because it supports how prophecy or foreshadowing can often be fulfilled in different, unexpected ways. Obviously Cersei has no idea about the dynamic between Sansa and Sandor, so she thinks she's giving some dire sentence on the gir's eventual fate, when it could actually turn out to be quite a pleasant thing One person's symbolic interpretation of death is negated by another's actual experiences of life/pleasure. Sandor is very much linked to his horse, with the monk's inability to geld Stranger suggesting that Sandor won't be Lanceled either.

[Bloodhound]

Thanks for your long explanation, MaryaStone. It's obvious that we're not going to change each other's minds, so we should probably leave it at this, but I really do appreciate your going into more detail about why you are so opposed to even well-executed clichés. Allow me a few final explanations of my own before I stop arguing debating with you (on this subject, anyway )...

My literary background is not British. At least, it's not uniquely British. For what it's worth, I'm Dutch, although I emigrated to Australia a few years ago. I grew up on a diet of Dutch children's classics, Enid Blyton and fairy tales from all over the world. At school I read English, French, German, Dutch, Latin and Greek literature, all in the original languages. I then got myself a degree in Chinese, specialising in modern Chinese literature, after which I did a (sadly unfinished) PhD in English literature. Many of my current favourite authors are Russian and Japanese. So I guess you could say I have an international approach to literature. The literary tradition I'm most familiar with is the British one, because I have a thing for English literature, but not being British myself, I can't really call it my tradition. I'm not sure I have a tradition. I've taken bits and pieces from many traditions, and I like it that way.

One thing I've noticed over the last few years is that I have quite the morbid streak. I'm not sure how it began, but I seem to be drawn to death. This probably explains why many of my favourite books and films are largely about death. It also explains why the prospect of death for interesting literary characters doesn't bother me. I like my literary and cinematic deaths, as long as they're properly dealt with. As I said in my previous post, Hollywood death scenes seldom work for me, but many Asian film directors are very, very good at them. Sure, they use clichés, but they turn them on their heads in such a way that they don't seem clichéd. Or alternatively, they imbue their clichés with so much lyricism and poetry and just plain beauty that you don't mind their being clichés. At least that's how it works for me. You may not feel the same way, given that you object to the idea of clichés and tragic-hero deaths. For me, though, it's not so much about the idea as it is about execution. If Martin can give Sandor and Brienne Korean-film-style death scenes, if he can make their death scenes genuinely poignant, I won't care how clichéd the fact of their dying is. It's the execution that matters to me.

I should probably also add that religion does not come into it for me. I'm an atheist, so I don't believe in justice administered from above. The main reason why tragic-hero death scenes work for me is because they feel psychologically right to me. I think it's entirely possible, and indeed likely, that a tormented soul like Sandor wouldn't mind dying after all he's been through, because he may just have a little too much on his conscience for comfort. Add to that the scarred face, the non-existent love life (at present), the loneliness, the unemployment and his terrible reputation (for which he is not entirely responsible himself), and you have a guy who most likely welcomes death. I can't blame an author for wanting to give it to him -- not to punish him or make him atone, but to put him out of his misery. While I can't speak for Martin, I know that I, personally, find emotional satisfaction in unhappy people dying a good death. Maybe it's because I have the aforementioned morbid streak, and maybe it's because I'm a staunch believer in euthanasia, but whatever it is, I think sick and unhappy people should be allowed to die. What's more, I see the beauty in their deaths. That's why I have no problems with Sandor and Brienne dying. They've earned their deaths, as far as I'm concerned. Not to atone, but to be free from pain and unhappiness.

Edited by Bloodhound, 12 February 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 11 February 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I have to disagree. There was a depravity about the Saltpans massacre that is not a feature of the Hound's violence, even Jaime felt it didn't sound like Sandor when he heard.

I agree with what Brash says above. I think Sandor wasn't the kid of man capable of such devious depravity, not even before he met Sansa. I'm sure he killed and pillaged but I believe most soldiers did. Torturing, raping and biting a little girls breasts are things the Hound wouldn't do.

When he says he enjoys killing I think he enjoys the rush, the power, the thrill, the adrenaline high, so I agree with RR that he likes it when there's some challenge to it, not when he kills rats and gnats. When he called the rioters rats and the knights in Joffrey's tourney gnats (he refused to take part) I think he wasn't bragging, I think he meant it, fighting is worth it only if the opponent is strong enough to pose danger for him.

bgona, GRR may have had the south of Spain in mind when he imagined Dorne, but it seems more like an Arab country to me.

Spoiler

I'm quite sure he hasn't described an place in Dorne which could be similar to the north of Spain:
http://www.turismoyf...eb/IMG_4368.jpg
http://www.megustavi.../article_36.jpg

Caro, as for the word cogerla, and the word follarla, I'm not sure whether they sound very different.

Spoiler

I know what the word means but not how it feels for you guys when you hear it, if you find it very rude, even for the Hound. In Castilian Spanish, follarla sounds more or less like fuck her in English, maybe a bit less taboo. It isn't a word fit for the ears of a young lady or a little girl like Arya, but it's the Hound talking, he's feeling raw and desperate and using shockingly crude vocabulary.

Quote

“...Sing me a song, why don’t you? Go on. Sing to me. Some song about knights and fair maids. You like knights, don’t you?”
He was scaring her. “T-true knights, my lord.”
“True knights,” he mocked. “And I’m no lord, no more than I’m a knight. ”

In the quote above, he seems to regret that he's not a true knight, he pretends he doesn't care (mocking here) but he's probably hurt because he isn't a knight, or a lord, for her.

Quote

“A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he’ll look you straight in the face.” ...“And that’s more than little birds can do, isn’t it? I never got my song.”
“I . . . I know a song about Florian and Jonquil.”
“Florian and Jonquil? A fool and his cunt. Spare me. But one day I’ll have a song from you, whether you will it or no.”
“I will sing it for you gladly.”
Sandor Clegane snorted. “Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here . . . and every one better than you.”

The extract about the dog dying for you, says exactly hound, not dog. I hadn't paid much attention to the difference, because I assumed it meant he was going to die for her. He says hound, though, so George may have picked up the word on purpose and this may may refer to the hound persona we've been discussing. There's duality in Sandor Clegane, even his half-burned face suggests this. Half of his face is normal while the other half is completely ruined, it seems a very deliberate type of scarring, which seems to emphasize this duality, as much as the Hound helm (the killer, his brutal persona) as opposed to Sandor, the man, capable of surprising gentleness and protectiveness.

As for songs, in this quote we can notice how he claims he'll have this song and she says she will sing for him gladly. he doesn't believe her. He may be right when he thinks she doesn't mean it, but it may also be his suspicious nature. He mistrusts everybody and he's sure the only way he can obtain anything is forcefully : whether you will it or not. Probably this is what he learned from life, to mistrust everyone, not to expect people to give him anything willingly, and to take, to grab what he wants, to take it without asking.

That's what he did during the BBB scene in her room. He didn't ask Sansa to approach him, to come closer, he yanked her towards him. He wanted physical contact and he shoved her onto the bed, taking, never asking. Then he used an excessive amount of intimidation (the knife) to make her give him that song. If he hadn't scared to death, she would have sung without coercion, if he had asked her to let him hold her, she'd probably let him, but he doesn't know how to ask and surely he'd always thought asking was useless. Then he took fear for revulsion, when she closed her eyes and when she was unable to sing, that triggered all his rage and the more than likely threat of rape, an idea that probably crossed his mind but wasn't the original intention he had when he came to her.

I've often thought the use of the word song isn't only literal in Sandor's mouth. He probably means what he's saying, at least at first, but I think there's another layer suggesting he yearns for a different kind of song. Perhaps consciously, perhaps only at a subconscious level, but he wants physical intimacy with her, and also acceptance and love.

Edited by MaryaStone, 13 February 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[brashcandy]

@Marya - Agreed, but what else is new

I always felt that he meant the song literally, but of course the whole point of Sansa singing songs is that she's yearning for the kind of romantic feelings expressed by those songs, she wants to experience the love, the pain, the mystery and the excitement involved in these legendary romances, so when the Hound asks for a song, that's really what he wants as well. He can't admit it to himself, and the song is just a cover, and maybe he has something a lot more "direct" in mind when he thinks of those songs, but ultimately that's what he's getting at. And you're right that he's a little peeved at her not thinking of him as a true knight, because true knights have access to those songs i.e. her adoration and admiration, whilst he clearly doesn't. So he threatens her with taking it, he isn't going to ask politely for something that she doesn't even think he's entitled to. But by the time of the BBB, they've shared so much more - her getting beaten in front of the court, the riots - and he realises that he doesn't simply want the song, he wants her.

Edited by brashcandy, 12 February 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 12 February 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

The singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss "prediction" by Cersei is interesting because it supports how prophecy or foreshadowing can often be fulfilled in different, unexpected ways. Obviously Cersei has no idea about the dynamic between Sansa and Sandor, so she thinks she's giving some dire sentence on the gir's eventual fate, when it could actually turn out to be quite a pleasant thing One person's symbolic interpretation of death is negated by another's actual experiences of life/pleasure. Sandor is very much linked to his horse, with the monk's inability to geld Stranger suggesting that Sandor won't be Lanceled either.

When Cersei says Sansa will be singing her song to the Stranger, begging for his kiss, I'm sure she means she'll be begging for a quick death, because she'll be suffering torture, and death will be a release. However, I think there's more to this sentence, just like when Robert said 'get her a dog, she'll be happier for it'. Cersei gives it a literal meaning but GRRM is giving the readers a sign once more.

The Stranger is one of the Seven, the one that represents death but also the outcast, the outsider, and this is Sandor Clegane. The Stranger represents death, but it may be another kind or death.

In French, when they say: La Petite Mort, they refer to sexual intercourse. La Petite Mort is a metaphor for orgasm. Again, this may be a subtle reference to sexual love between Sansa and Sandor ( like that song she says she will give him willingly after he's said he'll have it one day, whether she will it or not).

Quote

I’ll have a song from you, whether you will it or no.”

This sentence Sandor says resembles very much a prediction for the future.

Edited by MaryaStone, 13 February 2012 - 07:04 AM.

[brashcandy]

MaryaStone, on 12 February 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

When Cersei says Sansa will be singing her song to the Stranger, begging for his kiss, I'm sure she means she'll be begging for a quick death because she'll be suffering torture and death will be a release. However, I think there's more to this sentence, just like when Robert said 'get her a dog, she'll be happier for it'. Cersei gives it a literal meaning but GRRM is giving the readers a sign once more.

The Stranger is one of the Seven, the one which represents death but also the outcast, the outsider, and this is Sandor Clegane. The Stranger represents death, but it may be another kind or death.

In French, when they say: La Petite Mort, they refer to sexual intercourse. La Petite Mort is a metaphor for orgasm. Again, this may be a subtle reference to sexual love between Sansa and Sandor ( like that song she says she will give him willingly after he says he'll have it one day, whether she will give it or not).



This sentence Sandor says resembles very much a prediction for the future.

Brilliant!

[brashcandy]

I swear it all ties in - her wrapping herself in the bloody sheet which is symbolic of lost virginity (as well as representing other things), and there's a heap load of sexual imagery that surrounds them too - the "song", the daggers, him lifting her out of bed, when she gets the first "stab" of her period and he's there to grab her- ok, ok, I'm convinced, it's going to go down.

[Rapsie]

Throughout the series there have been several references to the fact that the alter to the Stranger very seldom has many lit candles. We have also had all these references to death for life and blood magic etc.

[Caro99]

brashcandy, on 11 February 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Ooooh Caro, I think you're unto something here Hmmm, it would be sweet irony if this is really the "kiss" GRRM has in mind. Have you considered also how this might fit in with whole unkiss mismemory? Or maybe Sansa will warg Stranger?

Anyways, just throwing this out there - we've deduced that Sansa seems to represent the Mother figure in the symbolism of the Seven's gods (on the sansa re-read thread); I'm thinking that Sandor could represent the father - in a really twisted sense.

Cersei was certainly talking about the state of pain she would inflict on Sansa till the point of having her begging for death. But of course this must surely serve for another purpose, which involves the odd relationship that has happened between Sandor and Sansa, as you posted earlier. About how this fits on the whole unkiss memory, hmm, I guess it means that at least a kiss is meant to happen between them. I would hazard this could be before Cersei encounters Sansa, cause of the before I am done with her bit… i sort of read this as having Sansa be the winner f this enounter. Cersei may very well be done with her cause she can't bear something Sansa is doing to her, or i don't know.
And besides, Cersei doesn’t know anything about San/San, therefore Sansa may actually be very happy to “beg” her Stranger for a kiss. She doesn’t seem to mind the unkiss happened, in fact she resents Sandor for taking the kiss and leaver her the bloody cloak. I see that as resentment towards his action of leaving her, not for taking the kiss. So when and wherever they meet again, the unkiss may very well “repeat” itself…
Or this could also mean that Sansa will warg Stranger, but I need time to think how this would come about.
And yes, Sandor could be the father! Both he and Sansa sort of started as “mirrors” of some of the gods:  Sansa the Maid, of course. And Sandor with both the Stranger and the Warrior, but before this is all done, they could end up as the Mother & Father

Edited by Caro99, 12 February 2012 - 09:02 PM.

[brashcandy]

Caro99, on 12 February 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Cersei was certainly talking about the state of pain she would inflict on Sansa till the point of having her begging for death. But of course this must surely serve for another purpose, which involves the odd relationship that has happened between Sandor and Sansa, as you posted earlier. About how this fits on the whole unkiss memory, hmm, I guess it means that at least a kiss is meant to happen between them. I would hazard this could be before Cersei encounters Sansa, cause of the before I am done with her bit… i sort of read this as having Sansa be the winner f this enounter. Cersei may very well be done with her cause she can't bear something Sansa is doing to her, or i don't know.
And besides, Cersei doesn’t know anything about San/San, therefore Sansa may actually be very happy to “beg” her Stranger for a kiss. She doesn’t seem to mind the unkiss happened, in fact she resents Sandor for taking the kiss and leaver her the bloody cloak. I see that as resentment towards his action of leaving her, not for taking the kiss. So when and wherever they meet again, the unkiss may very well “repeat” itself…
Or this could also mean that Sansa will warg Stranger, but I need time to think how this would come about.
And yes, Sandor could be the father! Both he and Sansa sort of started as “mirrors” of some of the gods:  Sansa the Maid, of course. And Sandor with both the Stranger and the Warrior, but before this is all done, they could end up as the Mother & Father

Precisely. It seems like their signification has changed over time as they've matured, and I keep remembering how well they played off each other at Joff's name day tourney. It just came across like this is the man Sansa should have children with - as crazy as that may sound given Sandor's behaviour in much of the early books.

[childofsummer]

At some level, the song represents Sansa herself.  Sandor is at once attracted and repulsed by it and her.  He is attracted to the song's idealism, its hope for a better world.  He is repulsed by its inevitable (to him) descent into bitterness and cruelty.  He is attracted to Sansa's gentleness.  He is ashamed because he his song has been corrupted, and, as a result, he is repulsed, or angered, because he wants to shake some sense into her before that happens to hers.  He desperately wants to be a part of the song, but he is terrified at what he thinks must be its ending.  Maybe the song Sansa will sing to the Stranger will show him that songs can have different endings.

[childofsummer]

Caro99, on 12 February 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

Or this could also mean that Sansa will warg Stranger, but I need time to think how this would come about.

I sure hope Sansa never wargs Stranger.  Sandor rides Stranger.  That's just way too Dothraki in so many wrong ways.  

[Ednawolf]

Wow... great discussion.  Carry on!  (I have nothing intelligible to add right now.)

[clover]

Oh, man, never even considered Stranger and his usage!

Well, if she taps into her powers to warg, the bird can actually find out where her dog is. Now I feel like an idiot. I was only focusing on the hope that the Hound would bust loose from the Qi, when she can very well make it easier for him, perhaps. I mean, Bran got into Hodor. Why not? I had considered that this is how the kids will eventually coordinate and maybe find each other.

She just has to lose Littlefinger, er, somehow.

[Fragile Bird]

Just wanted to say, there have been some great posts these past few days!  Love reading 'em, keep up the great work!

[MaryaStone]

Quote

The Seven


The Faith worships the Seven, a single deity with seven aspects or faces, each representing a different virtue. Worshipers pray to specific aspects of the Seven for help and guidance depending on their need. The aspects are:

• Father, or the Father Above, representing judgment, He is depicted as a bearded man who carries scales and is prayed to for justice.
  
• Mother, or the Mother Above, representing motherhood and nurturing, she is prayed to for fertility or compassion, she is depicted as smiling with love and embodies the concept of mercy.
  
• Warrior, representing strength in battle, he is prayed to for courage and victory. He carries a sword.
  
• Maiden, representing innocence and chastity, she is usually prayed to to protect a maiden's virtue.
  
• Smith, representing crafts and labor, he is usually prayed to when work needs to be done, for strength. he carries a hammer.
  
• Crone, representing wisdom, she carries a lantern and is prayed to for guidance.
  
• Stranger, an exception to the other aspects, the Stranger represents death and the unknown. Worshipers rarely seek favor from the Stranger, but outcasts sometimes associate themselves with this god.

After reading this information about the Seven, I don't see Sandor as the father, because the father doesn't seem to represent fathering children but some kind of vigilante, someone righteous, fair and just,a provider of justice (it reminds me more of Stannis, though Stannis's justice's fairness is arguable, IMO). This seems extremely far from Sandor's personality and worldview, he seems to hate those who consider themselves morally irreproachable and dare to judge others.

When Stannis and Melisandre burn the statues of the seven,, we can see that the Maid has fallen oven the Warrior and looks as if she wants/is about to embrace him.This makes me think of Sansa and Sandor and here, the Maid may desire to offer the warrior her affection/love or her protection. Maybe this foreshadows that he'll fall in battle and she'll embrace him when he's wounded or dead. The Maid's statue has fallen two, so maybe both of them will fall and die together (Pleasssse Nooooooooo). This could be bittersweet and sort of beautiful, in a tragic way.

The mother's heart has been pierced by a longsword which is already burning, fire is licking at her face. This may refer to Catelyn and her unbearable pain when she witnessed Rob's death (and also when she thought her two younger sons had been killed), because the sword thrust through her heart may symbolise the pain of a mother who's lost her children. This scene reminds me of Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer too. As a mother, Dany's heart was also pierced by the pain of losing her baby, and also Cersei's when Joff was killed.

The Father is the first to fall, exactly like Ned and maybe justice itself, because Ned was the only character who was just and fair (even when he had to execute people), as well as honourable. Stannis likes to see himself as just, but I don't think he is. He doesn't know mercy and his behaviour is far from irreproachable from the moral point of view (he was going to let Melisandre kill Edric Storm, and all for his ambition to be a king).

The Father's beard is golden, I don't know why. Could it refer to Jaime? It would be most ironic if Jaime had to represent the father, a man who is estranged from his children and whose morality is questionable, to say the least.

The Stranger is very ambiguous. Who does he represent? I'm not sure. He may refer to Tyrion, who looks very unusual for a human being, he looks like an imp and he's described as very strange as regards looks (not only because he's a dwarf). The burning, curling hand may refer to either Jaime, Victarion or even Jon.

Spoiler

Jon is another outcast (in a way, and the outcasts are identified with the Stranger), his hand was also burned and he might have warged Ghost or any other animal at the end of ADWD, not looking human any more).

  As for the Maiden deity, it's said to protect a young maid's chastity, but it was Sansa's song to the Mother that probably protected hers when Sandor was in her room during the BBW. I think the Mother probably protected both Sansa and Sandor, just as Sansa prayed. Her prayers seem to have been answered more than once as regards Sandor. She prayed to the old gods (at the godswood) and the new (the seven, the mother's song) for him, and they've listened to her so far. Even the lord of Light respected him when he fought against Lord Beric.

He was marked again, though, marked by fire.He didn't get away unscathed, but his life was spared. If fire means purification (which is not unusual), Sandor may have been cleansed, at least to some extent. At least, I hope he won't have to die by means of fire, that would be the worst possible fate for Sandor, anything would be better than that. Maybe all this fire and burning in his life represents his personal hell; the souls of the damned are believed to burn in hell for all eternity and Sandor seems to inhabit a personal hell most of the time.

The stone dragons stirring are probably Dany's dragons that are indeed much alive.

The three female deities may represent (as they do in several ancient cultures),among other things, the stages of a woman's life ( a singer sang the maiden, mother and crone song at Joff and Marge's wedding).

Sansa is the Maiden now, but she's already compassionate and comforting like the Mother, even protective towards Sweetrobin, and even Sandor, when she prays for him, asking protection for his life and soul (to gentle the rage in him). When she becomes wiser (and this is already happening), she will have some of the Crone's wisdom.

Quote

La petite mort

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


La petite mort, French for "the little death", is an idiom and metaphor for orgasm.
More widely, it can refer to the spiritual release that comes with orgasm or to a short period of melancholy or transcendence as a result of the expenditure of the "life force", the feeling whereof is caused by the release of oxytocin in the brain after the occurrence of the orgasm.

Relating the Stranger's kiss (Sansa thinks of Sandor's imaginary kiss extremely often) to a metaphoric meaning isn't so far fetched if the Stranger delivers a figurative kind of death.

It may be literal death, though, and the Stranger could be Tyrion or Jon, even Victarion, whom Sansa hasn't met before and is a literal stranger to her (I don't think it will be Victarion, though, I have the impression this burning stranger represents Tyrion- I don't know why his hand is burning if he's Tyriom, though-).

Personaly, I don't believe Sansa will warg Stranger. I find the idea that Cersei's words might foreshadow Sansa warging Stranger and then asking for his (whose?) kiss extremely unlikely. Whose kiss will she beg for , Stranger's, the horse's or is she meant to be the horse herself ? Sorry, but I don't like the idea. I wouldn't even like her warging a horse and I don't think this begging for the Stranger's kiss may have anything to do with her warging Sandor's destrier.

I've tried to find the lyrics of the song Hamish the Harper sang at Joff's wedding but I haven't found anything so far. I can't remember if the lyrics even appear in the book. What I did find is this song to the Goddess, whose origin I don't even know, but it reminds me an awful lot of Sansa and her relationship with Sandor:

Quote

Song of the Goddess

I am rest for broken warriors.
I am a winding, twisting path.
I am the symbol of all freedom.
I am the softness of a laugh.

I am the song of a songbird.
I am a storm raging wild.
I am the bubbling of a brook.
I am the laughter of a child.

I am a guide for the lost.
I am the fall of the rain.
I am the scent of fresh flowers.
I am your joy and your pain.

I am the seed of an aspiration.
I am the wisdom of the wise.
I am love unconditional.
I am truth without lies.

I am the brilliance of a youth.
I am the darkness of the night.
I am the wildest power.
I am the brightness of white light.

I am the seas of emotion.
I am Warrior, Virgin, Queen.
I am peace for troubled hearts.
I am Sister in-between.

Maiden, Mother, Crone:
These are all my names,
These and so much more,
My depths are unexplained.

I am hope in empty darkness.
I am the beauty in your heart.
I am the one who watches over you
And never will we part.


http://z15.invisionf...p?showtopic=118

Edited by MaryaStone, 13 February 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Villemo]

Woman of War, on 11 February 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Replace Sandor by Tyrion and, with a few changes, you could absolutely recycle your ideas and I might steal your post and apply it on my favorite character.
So, explain to me: why are Sandor lovers so oftenTyrion haters?
Actually  a comparison thread of those two characters might be rather surprising:
Both are "morally grey", both have committed murders, both use prostitutes, both are ugly, both are alcoholics AND BOTH ARE OUTCASTS.
The readers split into two camps because they perceive a weird "romance" concurrence about  a certain girl they choose to identify with? Being blinded by that cock- comparing game that leads to irrational hatred?

I love both of them, both Tyrion and Sandor and I agree, they are alike.
I love their sense of humor, personality, their sarcasm.
But I find Sandor more attractive (meaning: sexy) than Tyrion. Sandor as a lover?   here I am , this could be interesting   Tyrion as a lover? no, thanks. And bugger political correctness
But I know, that the Imp would be a great friend, probably he would be better friend as the Hound.

[brashcandy]

@Marya - nice post I do agree with you that in the strict definitions of what they represent by the Seven, Sansa and Sandor sound very much like the maiden and the warrior. However, I think within the story, and how their roles are developing, they are coming to represent other facets of the Seven as you alluded to. Sansa's desire to be a mother has always been present from the very beginning, and Sandor has been closely associated with Ned, in terms of his protective watch over Sansa and Arya. I'd agree that the Father in the Seven deities doesn't sound like Sandor - the whole bringing justice bit - but I do think that Martin has gradually been setting Sandor up as a non-traditional father figure - not for Sansa! (that's LF's pervy role), but in general terms as someone who can provide, protect and guide. Obviously Sandor represents a much more erotic figure in Sansa's memories and dreams than you would associate with the father, and vice versa.

[Elba the Intoner]

childofsummer, on 12 February 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

At some level, the song represents Sansa herself.  Sandor is at once attracted and repulsed by it and her.  He is attracted to the song's idealism, its hope for a better world.  He is repulsed by its inevitable (to him) descent into bitterness and cruelty.  He is attracted to Sansa's gentleness.  He is ashamed because he his song has been corrupted, and, as a result, he is repulsed, or angered, because he wants to shake some sense into her before that happens to hers.  He desperately wants to be a part of the song, but he is terrified at what he thinks must be its ending.  Maybe the song Sansa will sing to the Stranger will show him that songs can have different endings.

I love this metaphor of the song relating to their greater life experiences.  And remember, it is Sansa's song that comforts and soothes Sandor's despair in her bedroom after the BBB.  This is also the song of ice and fire and I see the word song in the title as also a metaphor for the whole story.  GRRM could have used many different words in the title in place of song.  He could have named it the tale of ice and fire or the saga of ice and fire, but he used the word song.  Songs and singing are important through out the books though their relevance is most obvious in Sansa's story/song.  (Though there's a possibility that I could be reading way more into this than there is since I sing as a hobby and so singing and songs are very important to me.  In fact, I picked my username based on a singer mentioned in the Song of Ice and Fire.  Can anyone figure it out?  Hint: I got the idea from another singer in the story, Mance Rayder)

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Elba the Intoner, on 13 February 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

I love this metaphor of the song relating to their greater life experiences.  And remember, it is Sansa's song that comforts and soothes Sandor's despair in her bedroom after the BBB.  This is also the song of ice and fire and I see the word song in the title as also a metaphor for the whole story.  GRRM could have used many different words in the title in place of song.  He could have named it the tale of ice and fire or the saga of ice and fire, but he used the word song.  Songs and singing are important through out the books though their relevance is most obvious in Sansa's story/song.  (Though there's a possibility that I could be reading way more into this than there is since I sing as a hobby and so singing and songs are very important to me.  In fact, I picked my username based on a singer mentioned in the Song of Ice and Fire.  Can anyone figure it out?  Hint: I got the idea from another singer in the story, Mance Rayder)

Abel, who in turn was inspired by Bael the Bard.