469 replies to this topic

[bgona]

Caro99!!! Really good observation!!

But I have a problem: Sansa has already sung the song to the Stranger and she keeps remembering the unkiss.

Sandor is an outcast (he hasn´t a place to go, he hasn´t nothing, only Stranger) and he has a burning hand (a hole arm! The arm shield). And he is a gravedigger (related to the death). There (Sansa and Sandor) are the most related characters to the Sevens.

(Thanks MaryaStone, I was looking to all the Sevens meanings as a fool!).

I don´t see either Sansa warging Stranger.

My "romantic" imagination always run to his end as rescuing Sansa of a burning tower, and he dying after kissing her. (no comments please ).

Sansa has been all the time the Maiden, but I believe she is going to turn into the Mother (after reading you these days).

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Marya I miss in the gothic scene of the bedroom the kiss. Sorry, but I always want that kiss (more when Sansa wraps herself with his cloak.

And yes, that picture that you put is of a typical town of the north of Spain (Santander, Euskadi, Asturias). And Dorne is more the South (Andalucia with all its arabs reminiscence and its sand beach.

[Bloodhound]

Hi Marya! I hope you don't mind if I respond to another post of yours to get back into this discussion. I promise I won't mention the words 'death' and ' cliche' in this one. :-)

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

When Stannis and Melisandre burn the statues of the seven gods, we can see that the Maid has fallen oven the Warrior and looks as if she wants/is about to embrace the him.This makes me think of Sansa and Sandor and here, the Maid may desire to offer the warrior her affection/love or her protection. Maybe this foreshadows that he'll fall in battle and she'll embrace him when he's wounded or dead. The Maid's statue has fallen two, so maybe both of them will fall and die together (Pleasssse Nooooooooo). This could be bittersweet and sort of beautiful, in a tragic way.

You know what, I can totally see this happening. And you're right, it would be sort of beautiful, in a tragic way. Well spotted.

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

The Father's beard is golden, I don't know why. Could it refer to Jaime? It would be most ironic if Jaime had to represent the father, a man who is estranged from his sons and whose morality is questionable, to say the least.

I think Jaime's morality is on its way to becoming a lot less questionable. I also think that he's about to become a better father to his children, however strained his relationship with Cersei. I think we'll see him take a more active interest in his children in the next two books. As for the judgement thing you quoted, about the Father being associated with judgement and justice, well, I would argue that Jaime is possibly the most harshly judged character in the series. Everyone calls him Kingslayer, all the time. Everyone has an opinion on him. He is judged wherever he goes, for a deed he feels he should actually be applauded for. And he now has a sword called Oathkeeper, which may be a sign that he's going to be a character associated with justice in the next two books. This being the case, I wouldn't be surprised if he did indeed turn out to represent the symbolical Father. It may sound odd, but the signs are there.

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

He [Sandor] was marked again, though, marked by fire.He didn'g get away unscathed, but his life was spared. If fire means purification (which is not unusual), Sandor may have been cleansed, at least to some extent. At least, I hope he won't have to die by means of fire, that would be the worst possible fate for Sandor, anything would be better than that. Maybe all this fire and burning in his life represents his personal hell, the souls of the damned are believed to burn in hell for all eternity and Sandor seems to inhabit a personal hell most of the time.

I think it very likely that that Sandor's final battle will be with fire. I think he'll have to overcome his fear of fire to do something major -- say, save Sansa from a burning house or something like that. Martin can't put all this emphasis on Sandor and his fear of fire and not do something with it in the end. Chekhov's gun and all that.

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

Personaly, I don't believe Sansa will warg Stranger. I find the idea that Cersei's words might foreshadow Sansa warging Stranger and then asking for his (whose?) kiss extremely unlikely. Whose kiss will she beg for , Stranger's, the horse's or is she meant to be the horse herself ? Sorry, but I don't like the idea. I wouldn't even like her warging a horse and I don't think this begging for the Stranger's kiss may have anything to do with her warging
Sandor's destrier.

Agreed. I'm sure Cersei's words are a foreshadowing of sorts, but I doubt her words will take this particular form.

------------------

To the other contributors to this interesting thread -- I'm fascinated by the things you're digging up. I may not respond to many posts, but I'm reading your comments in silence and I'm enjoying them. I just thought I'd put that out there.

[Elba the Intoner]

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 13 February 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Abel, who in turn was inspired by Bael the Bard.

Very good!  And "intoner" is another word for singer.  I was trying to go for an alliteration along the lines of Bael the Bard and this was the best I could come up with since they are both short vowel sounds.  (And in a non ASOIAF reference I liked that Elba sounds like a compressed form of Elphaba, the name of my favorite not so "Wicked" witch.)  By the way, I consider all of us who have read the books and are here discussing them with such passion to be singers of the song.

Anyway, back on topic, this is a great thread and it's been fascinating to read about everyone's insights into such a great character.  Since I am new to this forum, I was wondering if there has been any discussion of the comparisons of Sandor/Hound and Littlefinger (other than their obsession with Sansa).  I see them as foils of each other in many respects and have some opposite features and similar features but I don't want to dredge up a topic if it already has been discussed somewhere else earlier.  Maybe it came up in a Sansa or Littlefinger thread, and I see there are 17 Sandor threads and I haven't read through them all, but if not, I have some thoughts on this and I'd be interested in what other people think too.

[MaryaStone]

Bloodhound, on 13 February 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hi Marya! I hope you don't mind if I respond to another post of yours to get back into this discussion. I promise I won't mention the words 'death' and ' cliche' in this one. :-)

I enjoyed very much reading your posts about cliches and tragedy (among other things). If we agreed on everything, it would be quite boring. If all of us saw everything the same way, what would be the point of posting here? To tell each other we were right endlessly? I’m happy to have found here people I can share interests with; this doesn’t mean we have to agree on everything. I have read posts which gave me ideas I’d never thought of by myself, and that’s great. Even reading why other people think differently is rewarding. If not, I’d never know why they think that way.

I agree with you that writers always borrow devices, stories, mythology, tropes, etc from others and that’s o.k. It’s even good to make use of the literary heritage past generations have left us. Talent very often consists of telling the same old stories in a different way, reinventing them, refreshing them, adding something new here and there.

My reserve as regards tragedy is another matter. I understand the appeal that it has for many people, but it’s not my cup of tea, because I see life as a sort of tragicomedy and think that no one and nothing appears so serious or so heroic in the short distances. Even Alexander the Great or Cleopatra had their miseries. Only their legends are perfect and larger than life but not them. I can’t take people too seriously, I just can’t.

Death is part of life itself and, unfortunately, there’s no beauty in it. When we see beauty in a tragic death scene it’s because it’s easier for us this way, otherwise we’d have to accept this death was as useless and ordinary, as devoid of poetry as most deaths are.

I don’t believe most people expect justice coming from the divine, but they may hope for some sort of poetic justice. Most of us love Sandor, we may love him too much and we’d like some sort of satisfying closure for his life, as unrealistic as this wish may be. Some people say he doesn’t deserve all our love, that he’s a remorseless killer , but I’d tell them he’s like the prodigal son in the Bible, the one whose father welcomed with open arms when he came back home, after leading the life of a sinner.

Edited by MaryaStone, 13 February 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[MaryaStone]

Woman-of-War pointed out the similarities between Sandor and Tyrion. They’re both outcasts, it’s true, but they aren’t all that similar, in my view.

Sandor is unassuming and self-deprecating. He doesn’t seem to wallow in his own misery, like Tyrion does (although I may have this impression because we don’t have any Sandor POV chapters), he just drinks himself into stupors and endures. When he has the chance, he tries to vent his pent-up rage in a physical way, cutting wood, fighting, etc. I’d say he’s sort of an introvert while Tyrion is an extrovert, and this shows in the way they deal with their lives, their problems and their pain.

Tyrion has a sort of epicurean attitude to life, he enjoys life, as much as he can. He enjoys sex with prostitutes (although he would prefer to have real love in his life) because his looks make it difficult for him to seduce women on equal terms.

Varys says to Tyrion that the Hound gambles, drinks and whores, but I don’t think he drinks wine the way Tyrion does. The imp enjoys good wine, good food and beautiful women while Sandor drinks without enjoyment, he’s not a merry drunkard, like Tyrion, he’s a sullen alcoholic. I guess it’s the same with whores. Not a single woman would offer him sex without his paying for it, so I guess he goes to brothels nearly out of necessity (although you can argue that sex isn’t an primary necessity for anyone).

I can’t imagine him laughing and enjoying intimacy the way Tyrion does. He’s probably too damaged for that, and he hasn’t had a single good experience in his life, at least the imp had Tysha, if only for a short time. He knows what feeling accepted feels like, Sandor hasn’t known even that.

I know Tyrion thinks Tysha’s love was a fraud but he felt it, he experienced happines, if only briefly, and he seems to be able to enjoy sex and having a good time with a woman. I don’t think Sandor is a skilled lover, like Tyrion. The girls will probably be afraid of him and the experience can’t be comfortable, either for them or for him.

Tyrion doesn’t have real love or a loving father, but he’s had a good education, the love of his brother Jaime and that of Myrcella and Tommen. As for Sandor, what does he have?

Tyrion has known what holding power is (he’s been the king’s Hand and commanded men) and he considers himself above the rest as regards wits and intelligence (and his assumption is right). He suffers because of his looks and the impossibility to be really loved by a woman or respected and loved by his own father because of these looks, but I haven’t noticed in him the self-hatred, the self-deprecation and the low self esteem that I see in the Hound.

When he opens up to Sansa and tells her about his burns, Sandor says only a man who’s been burnt knows what hell is. I don’t think he’s talking only about physical pain. Like the EB says on the QI, he’s a man in torment.

Now, I think both of them are changing as regards morality. Sandor seems to be changing for the better and Tyrion for the worse. Sandor may be further from hell now, while Tyirion is descending into his particular hell. I don’t know where Martin is going to take Tyrion’s story arch. In the first book, I thought his destiny would be as grand as he was small and that he’d survive until the end of the saga. Perhaps he’d never find his Tysha but he’d find respect and recognition, now I’m not sure. Maybe because he’s set off on a journey taking the opposite direction Sandor has taken. If nothing changes, this way can only lead to his doom. I don’t know, perhaps both of them are meant to die, but the problem is the moral degeneration this character is undergoing when at the begining of his ordeal, he was quite a decent person.

Edited by MaryaStone, 13 February 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[brashcandy]

@Elba the Intoner - please feel free to post your thoughts on Sandor vs. LF - we didn't get to 17 threads by coming up with all new topics I'd love to hear what you think.

Marya said

Quote

I know Tyrion thinks Tysha’s love was a fraud but he felt it, he experience happines, if only briefly, and he seem to be able to enjoy sex and having a good time with a woman. I don’t think Sandor is a skilled lover, like Tyrion. The girls will probably be afraid of him and the experience can’t be comfortable, either for them or for him.

This is true, and very sad for Sandor. I was reading a chapter when Tyrion finds Shae sleeping in bed, and he crawls on top of her, playing with her breasts, they have sex and then he's so happy he doesn't want to pull out. Now, imagine Sandor having sex gals. It's probably over very quickly and he's gone. He doesn't have the social clout or the money to make a woman like Shae even think about putting on a pretence. Even though much of Shae's affections are fake, Tyrion can still enjoy the feeling of being accepted and wanted.

The one thing I want for Sandor is him to be able to enjoy the mundanity of love and intimacy - to have someone tell him a la Tysha and Tyrion, that their names were similar. Wild guess on who that would be

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 13 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

Now, imagine Sandor having sex gals. It's probably over very quickly and he's gone. He doesn't have the social clout or the money to make a woman like Shae even think about putting on a pretence.

This is exactly what I think. I guess he just gets a quick release, as fast as he can, and then he's gone, just as you've said here. That's not enjoying sex. He probably fucks the same way he gets drunk. He gets drunk, but he doesn't know how to enjoy wine and he goes for a quick release with a woman but doesn't know what touching or being touched, caressing or being caressed is.

Edited by MaryaStone, 13 February 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[Starbird]

R & R, on 11 February 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

I would argue that the Hound, pre-QI, was manifestly capable of playing a central role in the sacking of Saltpans if he was ordered to do so by the king of the realm whilst in the king's service.  Let us not forget that Sandor Clegane, in his own words, loved to kill people, and that he was given to acting upon orders in his servitude, proof being hacking Mycah in half.

Sandor was also more than willing to hack any number of unarmed civilians to pieces en route to saving Sansa from the mob at KL, although he derived less enjoyment from this given the lack of challenge inherent in being a dog amongst rats.

This post made me think of Robert, for some reason. For sure, there's a guy who only wants to spend his time doing things (battle/sex/hunting) that get his motor going (and avoiding stuff that doesn't, like ruling his kingdom). I think Sandor genuinely liked killing, in so far as killing was an adrenaline rush and a way to prove himself (superior to his opponent/worthwhile as an employee/probably worthwhile as a person). I could go on about how his past influenced this need but you're all probably there already. It also fits in with his personality as a 'pleaser' (loyal as a Hound). He does his job well. He never slacks when protecting Joffrey, escorting Sansa back to her room, killing people, etc. (Sansa's a pleaser, too . . .)

That said, I don't think he got a rush out of "unfair" fights. Mycah, Ned's man (Cayn?) in the throneroom when he's betrayed by LF, the people in the crowd trying to pull Sansa from her horse . . . those I'd classify as necessity killings. Saltpans would be the same thing. Why would he *want* to kill a bunch of villagers armed with pitchforks and cheap steel? There's no challenge there. It proves nothing*. Like R&R said, if he was ordered to kill, he'd kill, but he wouldn't maim and mutilate. Mutilation is Gregor's bag, not his. I think the mob scene was only a rush because Sansa was involved and, so, he had a personal stake in the outcome.

*Things like the BBB or tournaments would be a true test of his skill and his worth. Just by his size alone, there are a limited number of men around who could offer him a good fight in a spar. Then you add in his skill, and that narrows the field even more. He's aware of this. When his brother kills the kid from the Vale at the Hand's Tourney, he tells Sansa that the kid had no money, no squire, and "no business riding in this company." Later, at Joffrey's lame name day tournament, he dismisses the field as "gnats" and says it wouldn't be worth the trouble of putting on his armor. So really, Sandor only has two ways to prove his worth: tourneys (against only a handful of men who can truly give him a run for his money) or battles (where the danger is real, the opponents are many, and he's required to do his job). Anyone living through a battle probably gets a rush of some kind, though.

This is getting very disjointed (sorry!) so I'll just add that, when he tells Sansa killing is the sweetest thing there is, I think we need to take that with a grain of salt. By then, the man's been working overtime selling his "knights aren't worth crap" spiel to her, and there she is asking if he's worried about going to hell, basically devaluing the only thing he can feel proud of. He has nothing, nothing!, else to impress her with besides his martial skill. Looks, money, status on par with hers, lands, none of those are in stock in his girl-wooing arsenal. So, of couse killing is the sweetest thing there is. What else is he going to say? "Babysitting Joffrey is the sweetest thing there is?" He's trying to impress a girl, and the girl's not biting. And now I'm miles from where I started . . .

fossegrim, on 12 February 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

I was unaware of the gender inequality on this board. I rarely bother correcting assumptions that I'm a woman because I don't think it matters, but I'm a dude. Let the other boys discuss duels and politics, I'm fascinated by the dynamic between the characters ...

I know I referred to you as "she" or "her" once. Sorry about that!

[brashcandy]

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

This is exactly what I think. I guess he just gets quick release, as fast as he can, and then he's gone, just as you've said here. That's not enjoying sex. He probably fucks the same way he gets drunk. He gets drunk, but he doesn't know how to enjoy wine and he goes for a quick release with a woman but doesn't know what touching or being touched, caressing or being caressed is.

Yes And we know he could be a gentle lover. GRRM has been stuck on those words "not ungently" in describing his touching Sansa.

Btw, great explanation on the Sandor/Tyrion difference, Marya.

[brashcandy]

Quote

He has nothing, nothing!, else to impress her with besides his martial skill. Looks, money, status on par with hers, lands, none of those are in stock in his girl-wooing arsenal. So, of couse killing is the sweetest thing there is. What else is he going to say? "Babysitting Joffrey is the sweetest thing there is?" He's trying to impress a girl, and the girl's not biting. And now I'm miles from where I started . . .

Starbird, this is so true! That's why when she tries to thank him for saving her he gets so offended, and wants to brush it off (even though he's secretly pleased) because he was fighting against a bunch of villagers, and he doesn't think this really proves anything to Sansa. I think a real part of him began to feel some anxiety that she didn't think he had done shit

[Starbird]

<quote>brashcandy, on 13 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:


Now, imagine Sandor having sex gals. It's probably over very quickly and he's gone. He doesn't have the social clout or the money to make a woman like Shae even think about putting on a pretence.</quote>

Well, he did win the Hand's Tourney so, for a little while anyway, he had the cash. I think he had enough clout, too, to get some girl to pretend to like him, if he could bother to make himself agreeable.

But the problem here is, he doesn't want pretense. So nothing short of genuine affection could really please him, hence his being so hung up on Sansa. He refuses to live in a fantasy world, in bed or out of it.

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 13 February 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yes And we know he could be a gentle lover. GRRM has been stuck on those words "not ungently" in describing his touching Sansa.

Btw, great explanation on the Sandor/Tyrion difference, Marya.

Thanks, thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
Sandor and sex, it's true, I think he's clumsly and fast and uncouth and a disaster, but an incredibly endearing disaster, because if he ever had the chance to be with a girl who wanted him (if he girl was Sansa, it would be too much bliss for him) he'd do anything, and I mean anything to please her, he'd touch her as if she was made of porcelain and wouldn't care about his needs at all, he'd just worship her. That's the impression I have of him.

[brashcandy]

Starbird, on 13 February 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

<quote>brashcandy, on 13 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:


Now, imagine Sandor having sex gals. It's probably over very quickly and he's gone. He doesn't have the social clout or the money to make a woman like Shae even think about putting on a pretence.</quote>

Well, he did win the Hand's Tourney so, for a little while anyway, he had the cash. I think he had enough clout, too, to get some girl to pretend to like him, if he could bother to make himself agreeable.

But the problem here is, he doesn't want pretense. So nothing short of genuine affection could really please him, hence his being so hung up on Sansa. He refuses to live in a fantasy world, in bed or out of it.

That's exactly right Starbird. And something tells me he wouldn't have fallen for Shae's little song and dance that Tyrion believed in. Sandor, to his credit (and detriment) absolutely believes no woman would want him for him.

[Villemo]

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Tyrion has a sort of epicurean attitude to life, he enjoys life, as much as he can. He enjoys sex with prostitutes (although he would prefer to have real love in his life) because his looks make it difficult for him to seduce women on equal terms.

Varys says to Tyrion that the Hound gambles, drinks and whores, but I don’t think he drinks wine the way Tyrion does. The imp enjoys good wine, good food and beautiful women while Sandor drinks without enjoyment, he’s not a merry drunkard, like Tyrion, he’s a sullen alcoholic. I guess it’s the same with whores. Not a single woman would offer him sex without his paying for it, so I guess he goes to brothels nearly out of necessity (although you can argue that sex isn’t an primary necessity for anyone).

love your post, MaryaStone
(as usual)

but Tyrion was an aristocrat, his father, grandfather and other ancestors belonged to the one of largest family of Westeros. They probably were interesting in arts, they enjoying good wine, good food, they like music. High culture.

Sandor is a simple guy. His family was low origin (I'm not sure if it is appropriate word, but I hope you know what i mean ). His grandpa was a kennel. So, drink to stupor and have an ordinary sex with whores is natural for him. Sansa - an aristocrat, too - could learn him a lot...

[brashcandy]

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Thanks, thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
Sandor and sex, it's true, I think he's clumsly and fast and uncouth and a disaster, but an incredibly endearing disaster, because if he ever had the chance to be with a girl who wanted him (if he girl was Sansa, it would be too much bliss for him) he'd do anything, and I mean anything to please her, he'd touch her as if she was made of porcelain and wouldn't care about his needs at all, he'd just worship her. That's the impression I have of him.

My impression of having sex with Sandor Clegane (yes, I'm going on to make a point, although I'm sorely tempted to stop right there, hehehehe ) is that he does it like he does a kill: he strikes hard, giving as good as he gets, and he doesn't wait around to see if the person is dead (read: woman is satisfied) because he knows he's done his job right the first time. However, as you said Marya, the intimacy and the love are what is lacking, and these are what he wants.

[MaryaStone]

Villemo, on 13 February 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

love your post, MaryaStone
(as usual)

but Tyrion was an aristocrat, his father, grandfather and other ancestors belonged to the one of largest family of Westeros. They probably were interesting in arts, they enjoying good wine, good food, they like music. High culture.

Sandor is a simple guy. His family was low origin (I'm not sure if it is appropriate word, but I hope you know what i mean ). His grandpa was a kennel. So, drink to stupor and have an ordinary sex with whores is natural for him. Sansa - an aristocrat, too - could learn him a lot...

Yes, I know what you mean, but Tyrion has it in him, he knows how to enjoy life (and this is a good trait) while, Tywin for example is unable to do so, because he takes himself too seriously.

Tyrion is not like that, the guy can be fun. Victarion, for example is an aristocrat too but he can't enjoy a joke, he doesn't know how to. Tyrion can make fun even of himself, I don't think Sandor can make fun of himself, his sense of humour is dark, not fun and sparkling like Tyrion's. I'd prefer to sit next to Tyrion at a party, that's for sure, but I'd prefer Sandor for other things .

Sandor, as Joff's sworn shield, can't be so poor. I think he could pay girls to pretend they like him,  but he wouldn't bother because he can't stand pretenses, like Starbird says. I think it's his awful background and his incredibly low self-esteem that prevent him from enjoying life.

I'm sure a peasant can enjoy newly made bread, ordinary wine and a willing girl in his bed an awful lot. A peasant can be as much an epicurean as Tyiron when given the chance, while Tywin, Victarion, Ned or Sandor couldn't.

Edited by MaryaStone, 13 February 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[bgona]

We are not having this conversation!!!!

No have no idea how good is he in that matters, but I believe that it is as you have say it. With "pay sex" as job, only satisfation, cause they are liers.

In the opposite, with Sansa it will be completely different, just the way he touches her, he keeps a tigh control of his muscles. And not only that: it will be the first time that he is going to have sex + love, and that it is the most marvelous of the world.

[bgona]

I enjoy a lot the black sense of humour of Sandor. I like to see how he laughs (as barking).

[MaryaStone]

brashcandy, on 13 February 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

My impression of having sex with Sandor Clegane (yes, I'm going on to make a point, although I'm sorely tempted to stop right there, hehehehe ) is that he does it like he does a kill: he strikes hard, giving as good as he gets, and he doesn't wait around to see if the person is dead (read: woman is satisfied) because he knows he's done his job right the first time. However, as you said Marya, the intimacy and the love are what is lacking, and these are what he wants.

Very good, Brash, very good! I'm sure you're right, with one single exception, I don't think he gets his job right if he doesn't bother to check if the person is dead. Someone should teach him something soon, just in case he stands any chances with his ladybird.

For a good torero, the kill must be faultless!

[Villemo]

MaryaStone, on 13 February 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Tyrion can make fun even of himself, I don't think Sandor can make fun of himself, his sense of humour is dark, not fun and sparkling like Tyrion's.

uhm, but Sandor had some kind of distance to himself (Dondarrion, you are uglier then me now)

Quote

I'd prefer to sit next to Tyrion at a party, that's for sure, but I'd prefer Sandor for other things .