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Dragonsteel is not Valaryan Steel.


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I have to say this because it is so clearly applicable, but do you guys realize your hearing hoof beats and shouting zebras!?



Actually that's not even all, this is chekovs gun too. Valyrian steal is hyped up all series long since the very first chapter(excluding prologue) and now all of a sudden you guys think that Valyrian steal is worthless? come on.


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Current evidence considered, Valyrian steel is the name the Valyrians gave to the ancient Asshaii dragonsteel, after the last Asshaii dragon sorcerors taught the primitive Valyrians how to make it, 5000 years ago.

But the blade wielded by Azor Ahai did not come from Valyria, as Valyria did not exist back then. It was dragonsteel made in Asshaii.

So while dragonsteel is identical to Valyrian steel, it had nothing to do with Valyria back when it was still known as dragonsteel.

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Current evidence considered, Valyrian steel is the name the Valyrians gave to the ancient Asshaii dragonsteel, after the last Asshaii dragon sorcerors taught the primitive Valyrians how to make it, 5000 years ago.

But the blade wielded by Azor Ahai did not come from Valyria, as Valyria did not exist back then. It was dragonsteel made in Asshaii.

So while dragonsteel is identical to Valyrian steel, it had nothing to do with Valyria back when it was still known as dragonsteel.

I agree with most of this, but I think it's likely that Valyrian Steel is a type of dragonsteel, further improved with spells and folding of the metal. I don't think the terms Dragonsteel and Valyrian steel are interchangeable, but I could be wrong.

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I agree with most of this, but I think it's likely that Valyrian Steel is a type of dragonsteel, further improved with spells and folding of the metal. I don't think the terms Dragonsteel and Valyrian steel are interchangeable, but I could be wrong.

Why do you guys have to make things soooooooooo hard? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Obsidian and dragonglass are the same thing. Valyrian steel and dragonsteel are the same thing. Now let's all go get milkshakes.

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Why do you guys have to make things soooooooooo hard? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Obsidian and dragonglass are the same thing. Valyrian steel and dragonsteel are the same thing. Now let's all go get milkshakes.

In this case I agree. Dragonsteel = VS. Dawn is basically Valyrian Steel on steroids because instead of regular iron ore + dragonfire + blood magic it was made from the Heart of a Fallen Star + dragonfire + blood sacrifice :)

You do know that GRRM has debunked the "VS is made of dragonbone" theory right?

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In this case I agree. Dragonsteel = VS. Dawn is basically Valyrian Steel on steroids because instead of regular iron ore + dragonfire + blood magic it was made from the Heart of a Fallen Star + dragonfire + blood sacrifice :)

You do know that GRRM has debunked the "VS is made of dragonbone" theory right?

You haven't read the thread, right?

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Why do you guys have to make things soooooooooo hard? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Obsidian and dragonglass are the same thing. Valyrian steel and dragonsteel are the same thing. Now let's all go get milkshakes.

What exactly is so hard about accepting that one thing can be a type of another rather than just another word for it? There's no reason to think that all dragonsteel is super light and woven with the same spells and folding method that by all accounts were unique to Valyria.

The fact that you have an example of there being two names for something else isn't really groundbreaking information that's gonna make me re-think my position. I know a thing can have two names.

Edit: I also wanna raise another more semantic reason why dragonsteel and Valyrian Steel aren't interchangable. Say Jon came across an old dragonsteel sword form the first war for the dawn that clearly pre-dates Valyria's founding by thousands of years. That sword could be similar or even identical to Longclaw, but it is by definition not Valyrian Steel. It wasn't made in Valyria.

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so if it ain't made in Valyria, it ain't Valyrian steel?



Yeah, good luck with that reasoning. You'll have a lot of fun talking to modern metalworkers using "Damascus Steel" made in China and Pakistan. Wine makers creating "Port" in Australia or "Champagne" in California will be happy to smirk at you as well. I could go on.


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What exactly is so hard about accepting that one thing can be a type of another rather than just another word for it? There's no reason to think that all dragonsteel is super light and woven with the same spells and folding method that by all accounts were unique to Valyria.

The fact that you have an example of there being two names for something else isn't really groundbreaking information that's gonna make me re-think my position. I know a thing can have two names.

That's true. I get what you're saying. It's like with lightsabers: is Darth Maul's double-blade a lightsaber? Yes. Is it made the same as the "regular" kinds? No. I totally get your point. But the mystery here is whether or not dragonsteel is the same as Valyrian steel. I think that's really all there is to it.

We don't know what spells are used in Valyrian steel so saying there are different spells to make dragonsteel just kind of confuses the matter. Plus we know there are lords out there with Valyrian steel swords. I think GRRM wants us to question whether or not those blades are the dragonsteel needed to fight the Others.

Edit: I also wanna raise another more semantic reason why dragonsteel and Valyrian Steel aren't interchangable. Say Jon came across an old dragonsteel sword form the first war for the dawn that clearly pre-dates Valyria's founding by thousands of years. That sword could be similar or even identical to Longclaw, but it is by definition not Valyrian Steel. It wasn't made in Valyria.

That's a good point! We know there were dragons in Westeros. We know Valyrian steel was made by using dragons. If Valyrian steel and dragonsteel are the same, maybe dragonsteel were weapons made in Westeros using the same formula as Valyrian steel weapons.

so if it ain't made in Valyria, it ain't Valyrian steel?

Yeah, good luck with that reasoning. You'll have a lot of fun talking to modern metalworkers using "Damascus Steel" made in China and Pakistan. Wine makers creating "Port" in Australia or "Champagne" in California will be happy to smirk at you as well. I could go on.

Exactly.

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That's true. I get what you're saying. It's like with lightsabers: is Darth Maul's double-blade a lightsaber? Yes. Is it made the same as the "regular" kinds? No. I totally get your point. But the mystery here is whether or not dragonsteel is the same as Valyrian steel. I think that's really all there is to it.

We don't know what spells are used in Valyrian steel so saying there are different spells to make dragonsteel just kind of confuses the matter. Plus we know there are lords out there with Valyrian steel swords. I think GRRM wants us to question whether or not those blades are the dragonsteel needed to fight the Others.

That's a good point! We know there were dragons in Westeros. We know Valyrian steel was made by using dragons. If Valyrian steel and dragonsteel are the same, maybe dragonsteel were weapons made in Westeros using the same formula as Valyrian steel weapons.

Exactly.

I agree that the mystery is probably solved, I'm not trying to cling to some "dragonsteel is something else" theory. I'm just making a minor point that Valyrian Steel is likely a subtype of dragonsteel rather than just the modern name for it. I'm not sure there are different spells. The whole point I'm making is that we don't know that there are any spells involved in making dragonsteel. It's not unreasonable to think that dragonsteel just means "steel tempered in dragonfire." Yes Valyrian Steel is tempered in dragonfire, but we know there's also spells and a folding process, and probably blood sacrifice. So maybe the people in Westeros or Asshai were forging steel with the fires of captured dragons long before the Valyrians emerged and perfected the art.

so if it ain't made in Valyria, it ain't Valyrian steel?

Yeah, good luck with that reasoning. You'll have a lot of fun talking to modern metalworkers using "Damascus Steel" made in China and Pakistan. Wine makers creating "Port" in Australia or "Champagne" in California will be happy to smirk at you as well. I could go on.

Real Port comes only from Portugal. It's the first line of the wikipedia article. There's just no law about calling other wine "port" in some countries, including the U.S. Just like most of the "Kobe beef" here in the US is not really Kobe beef. Damascus steel is another story because it doesn't originate in Damascus. That's just a case of people misnaming something.

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Well the obvious real life inspiration for Valyrian Steel is Damascus Steel. The wikipedia article on the topic is pretty informative.



Anyway the current inability to recreate true "Damascus Steel" in the real world is two fold:


1. Loss of the original iron ore used with its natural impurities (such as tungsten and vanadium) in specific natural concentrations.


2. Loss of the technique in heating the steel which imparted a specific pattern to the steel.



So compare to Valyrian Steel:


1. All of the swords came from Valyria. Thus its safe to assume that the ore use came from there as well and as we all know is no longer accessible.


2. Supposedly dragons were used in the forging technique. If so, they likely provided the correct temperature in their flames to forge the sword. There are also inherent "magical properties" in these swords as mentioned by GRRM in an SSM ( http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1225). Dragon fire may have provided these properties. Or it could be the "spells" used in forging. Its impossible to really tell with the information we have. However I think there is an answer...



Why can't we make any more of these swords?


- I believe the main problem is that the iron ore currently does not have the same impurities as the ore available in Valyria.And that impurity is Obsidian!




Now, back to OP, what does this have to do with dragon steel vs. Valyrian Steel?


- Again no reason to make it complicated.


- Dragon Glass= Obsidian


- So Dragon Steel = Steel made from iron ore that contains Obsidian


- Valyrian Steel = Dragon Steel which was made in Valyria



In the end, Obsidian is what ties everything together. Obsidian in itself can be what provides the swords these "magical properties". And of course the likely ability to take down the "Others". It is also very rare which would make iron ore infused with Obsidian even more so.



Edit: Valyrians may have perfected the technique in making the swords while Dragon Steel is just a sword which contains Obsidian. So yeah there would be a difference in the swords but the basic idea is the same. That's why dragon steel was mentioned as being a weapon against the Others.


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I actually believe that dragon steel is valaryan steel forged with dragon glass or obsidian.

I agree.

I can't speak to the dragonsteel part, but that what makes this obsidian special is that it is exported from Asshai.

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[MOD]



Show comments do not belong here, folks.



Aside from being a spoiler for those that choose not to watch the show, it is forum policy.



[/MOD]


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Valyrian Steel may or may not be Dragonsteel. It does not HAVE to be dragonsteel to be able to kill the Others. Dragonglass does that too and is not dragonsteel.



If VS turns out NOT to be DS, I say that dragonsteel is weapons made of dragonbone. The clues are in Tyrion's second chapter of AGoT.


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Consider the scenario I laid out in my post, the possibility that the Valyrians were not the first to create spellforged steel. We have stories from Asshai regarding Azor Ahai (with his sword, Lightbringer) and they have a lot in common with the Last Hero, who is said to have used dragonsteel to fight the Others.

There are stories of Asshai being the origin of dragons, and the home of powerful sorcerers. It is entirely possible that the people of Asshai could have created dragonsteel before Valyrian civilization became a force in Essos.

I completely agree with the above statement. The so called Proto-Valyrians???

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I agree with the folks who are saying Dragon steel was from Great Empire of the Dawn era, Valyrian steel was made in Valyria using the same or similar techniques.



They are both basically Dragon Bone swords. Not blade made of dragons bones. That wouldn't be hard enough, and you can't melt it down... but you could ground dragon bone down to a fine powder, then mix it in with the alloy and fold it 1,000 times to evenly distribute the dragon bone powder through the blade.



Valyrian steel swords are said to be dark steel that seems to drink the light. They are also lighter weight than regular steel swords. Tyrion and Arya, on separate occasions, noticed the dragon skulls seem to like the fire from their their torches, and drink up the light. I would imagine their bones are rather light since they fly.



Am I crazy?


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