Drowsey Dragon Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Was anyone else a bit deflated at the way Stannis "won" his victory over Renly? I was really expecting a great battle and the overly confident and rash Renly being defeated in battle at the hands of his more deserving and skilled brother.Then right before the battle he is murdered by "Stannis' shadow" which enables him to be victorious. I find it hard to swallow that Stannis,being who he is, would ever give his blessing for this kind of victory. Is this something Mel did without his knowledge? She again does this later to win control of Storms End.This also seems to be sucking the life out of Stannis himself. This is black magic at play. Is there a point this could actually kill Stannis in the end if that is what is happening to him when creating his shadow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crown Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Was anyone else a bit deflated at the way Stannis "won" his victory over Renly? I was really expecting a great battle and the overly confident and rash Renly being defeated in battle at the hands of his more deserving and skilled brother.Then right before the battle he is murdered by "Stannis' shadow" which enables him to be victorious. I find it hard to swallow that Stannis,being who he is, would ever give his blessing for this kind of victory. Is this something Mel did without his knowledge? She again does this later to win control of Storms End.This also seems to be sucking the life out of Stannis himself. This is black magic at play. Is there a point this could actually kill Stannis in the end if that is what is happening to him when creating his shadow?I was asking those questions myself aswell. What happens to Stannis and/or Melisandre when she casts a shadow(baby)? I hope, and I'm sure about it, that it'll be explained later in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtopher Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 ive been wondering, why are you all so sure that this shadow-baby-casting is taking its toll on Stannis´ health?i finished Clash and im halfway through Storm and i havent read in any part that this practice is affecting Stannis in any way, or at least if he´s sick theres no proof that its because of Melisandre´s acts.Dis i miss something on Clash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crown Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 ive been wondering, why are you all so sure that this shadow-baby-casting is taking its toll on Stannis´ health?i finished Clash and im halfway through Storm and i havent read in any part that this practice is affecting Stannis in any way, or at least if he´s sick theres no proof that its because of Melisandre´s acts.Dis i miss something on Clash?No, I you didn't. But there has the be a negative side effect on either Stannis or Melisandre because of her use of magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Malthred Storm Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Was anyone else a bit deflated at the way Stannis "won" his victory over Renly? I was really expecting a great battle and the overly confident and rash Renly being defeated in battle at the hands of his more deserving and skilled brother.Then right before the battle he is murdered by "Stannis' shadow" which enables him to be victorious. I find it hard to swallow that Stannis,being who he is, would ever give his blessing for this kind of victory. Is this something Mel did without his knowledge? She again does this later to win control of Storms End.This also seems to be sucking the life out of Stannis himself. This is black magic at play. Is there a point this could actually kill Stannis in the end if that is what is happening to him when creating his shadow?I know for sure that Stannis doesn't know that it was his shadow, but I am not sure about whether or not he knew about Melisandre's plan. After it was done, Stannis seemed very remorseful over his brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam with Hooters Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Xtopher wrote:ive been wondering, why are you all so sure that this shadow-baby-casting is taking its toll on Stannis´ health?Melisandre says so at one point, and that Stannis wouldn't survive making another one. (Could someone with e-books look up and post the exact quote? I'm working today and won't have time to dig through my hard copies. Thanks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 ASOS elaborates on the matter a bit.And I don't think I will ever respect Stannis again, after what he did to Renly in Storm's End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsey Dragon Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 I agree Luis. Stannis lost me after what he did to Renly. Any honor he had was lost after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrette Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 You all seem to be very sure that Stannis knew about this. I think he is at least at a very large part in denial about what happened or he just doesn't know it. When it happened to Renly, I was instantly mad at Stannis - as I think we were supposed to be - but after I saw his reaction on the news, he seemed pretty surprised and saddened.Just for shits and giggles, I will just assume he actually believes in Melisandres ability to foresee things in the flames and that nothing he would have done could have prevented his brother's fate. In his book, he has only taken advantage of a situation he had otherwise no influence of changing. Maybe not the most charming trait of character, but I think he's still somewhat honourable in his own crooked way.Greetings,Steph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colibri Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't think he knew anything about her whole scheme, so he still held some honor in my eyes. And if I read it right then I think he was having some terrible nightmares about the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plem Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't believe that Stannis knew about the whole shadow business either. I can't be sure because he's not a POV character, but for all he knows Brienne was actually the one who slit Renly's throat. Now, some part of him might have doubts about that, but I don't think he had any part in his brother's slaying (that he knows of). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Barristan Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Stannis is the one true king of westeros. Don't hate. He is awesome. He has a great dry sense of humor. Renly had to die, it was his own fault. He should have supported Stannis and served as his hand. Stanis is the greatest fictional character in the history of the world. What a boss. If you have just started reading, you may not like him to much, but wait until the end of A Storm of Swords... He becomes one of the true heroes. He's just awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrette Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Wow, Lord Barristan, you really do sound convincing in the way you are completely soaked into the story (in a good way, not meaning to mock you).I have not yet finished ASoS and now I cannot wait to do so, because I always liked Stannis somehow, even though I admit I was really mad at him after what happened to Renly. I was relieved when I read his reaction. Somehow I can understand Stannis' claim to the throne and technically it should be him on the throne, neither Joffrey nor Renly. Cranky old men have my heart as do bastards, cripples and broken things. So even though I don't have a reason (yet) to like Stannis, somehow I do. Maybe because I really like Davos Seaworth and think there must be something to Stannis when Davos is so loyal to him.As for the claim of the throne... it's always a matter of perspective and timeframe. From the Targaryen's perspective, Robert was a rebel and therefore none of the Baratheons have a legal claim to the throne. And I'm pretty sure there have been people and kings in Westeros before Aegon came with his dragons and took the continent by force. And there has been a time before kings at all. I am a big fan of the wildlings and have the feeling we will know what happened even before any king had any claim in Westeros.Still, I like Stannis. And in my book, his honour is intact - well, concerning his brother, that is. I just don't like the whole Rh'llor thing. Reminds me too much of king Arthur and paganism, shamanism and druidry was killed in favour of christianity. The one god... the flaming sword. Naaaaah, me no like.Greetings,Steph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fylimar Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I like Stannis, too - surprisingly. He would make a good king, without that mad red priest and the doubtful help of Rh'llor (gods - I'm reading Lovecraft with names liek Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep and still having trouble to get that name right :ack: ). He seemed to be hard but just - until his wife and Melisandre made him a chosen one on some kind of a holy crusade. I hope, he manages to get rid of Melisandre and become his grudging but fair old self again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'm not sure ignorance or worse, denial, makes Stannis' shame any less damning in this case, personally. He is supposed to be a competent and experienced general. Being naive is not acceptable in his case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Renly was planning on killing Stannis too. Stannis just beat him to it. Why does it matter how it was done? I agree that it probably does to people in Westeros, since black magic is a taboo there, but it wasn't like he killed Renly (if he did) for calling him names.Renly was drawing up plans to attack and slay Stannis, the older brother whom he owed fealty.LuisDantas, do you believe open war is preferable to assasination, morally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsey Dragon Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Renly was planning on killing Stannis too. Stannis just beat him to it. Why does it matter how it was done? I agree that it probably does to people in Westeros, since black magic is a taboo there, but it wasn't like he killed Renly (if he did) for calling him names.Renly was drawing up plans to attack and slay Stannis, the older brother whom he owed fealty.LuisDantas, do you believe open war is preferable to assasination, morally?Well the fact is Renly died in such a dishonorable and deflating fashion it came as a shock to everyone. He had made plans to do everything honorable in the peoples eyes to earn respect after his victory, like attacking when he said he would. In this case the battle takes precedance over assasination. Stannis is a feared and battle tested military leader. I am not convinced Renly would have won if that battle took place. He was way to cocky and green to roll over Stannis, even with superior numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Malthred Storm Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Well the fact is Renly died in such a dishonorable and deflating fashion it came as a shock to everyone. He had made plans to do everything honorable in the peoples eyes to earn respect after his victory, like attacking when he said he would. In this case the battle takes precedance over assasination. Stannis is a feared and battle tested military leader. I am not convinced Renly would have won if that battle took place. He was way to cocky and green to roll over Stannis, even with superior numbers.I may not be remembering correctly (been a while since I read CoK), but wasn't Renly planning on attacking in the dead of night, as a surprise attack?Also, Stannis could have met Renly's army on the battlefield, but he would have severly hindered the forces that he hoped to gain from Renly, and even risk defeat from his overwhelming force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookd Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I got the impression that Stannis is not completely aware of what Melisandre is doing but Davos has an idea. With Melisandre sleeping in the quarters with Stannis and him looking like he hadn't slept in days, she's doing some magic to get those shadow children to kill his enemies. Also, just because most of the books that I have read in this type of style, there is a cost to balance everything out. It would stand to reason that if she's taking part of Stannis to make these shadow children, he's losing part of himself to do it. But, I don't think that he really knows what she's doing because, if I am remembering correctly, having her around is a appeasement to his wife.The thing that strikes me the most about the CoK's is that there is really no one honorable left in Westeroes now that Eddard Stark is dead. For the most part, his children are honorable (even Sansa has had her delusions ended) and his men are.. but other than Tyrion.. who else is truly honorable? Most of them men there are knaves to sadistic villianous knaves. Even Jamie pushing Bran off the tower is light compared to some of the other things that were done. Frankly, Renly should never had claimed the throne. He shold have helped Stannis' claim and then 'demanded' that he (Renly) be named heir after Stannis since Stannis' daughter is feeble-minded. But, even with Bran having seen Jamie and Cersei doing the deed, how is that proof that Joffrey isn't the true king? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtopher Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 i think its very well stablished by now that Joffrey is not a trueborn heir but a twisted creature born from incest. It was explained clearly in the first book. Genes dont lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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