70 replies to this topic

[Ser Malthred Stark]

LuisDantas, on 28 February 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

"Out of nowhere"?

Renly stateshis case quite plainly to both Ned and Catelyn. It is, in fact,quite straightforward,even plain: he doubts Stannis would make a better king than himself and he has convinced enough people to support him that he felt like challenging the letter of the law.

It is not even unusual. And we have no reasonwhatsoever todoubt him.

Renly may have the force to back up a claim, but no actual claim. Sure he can obviously take Westeros by force, but he really has no more claim than his brother, Robert, had during his Rebellion (Though the rebellion wasn't necassarily for Robert to take the throne).

[Drowsey Dragon]

I agree with Ser Malthred. Renly is usurpring Stannis' claim to the throne. Even though he may indeed make a far better king than Stannis, he is next in line after Stannis. So it is not like Robert and the rebellion because Robert did not rebell to become king, but in this case Renly is.

Edited by Drowsey Dragon, 28 February 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Xtopher]

So he´s having insomnia problems, and is maybe a bid depressed by his little brother´s death. who wouldnt?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Xtopher, on 27 February 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

it never says that, thats what bothers me, that everyone thinks that its causing Stannis´ health some problems each time she does that but it doesnt say that in the books, EVER.

Martin doesn't like to spell things out and spoonfeed his readers. For example, it never outright says in the books that Loras/Renly are gay, and we never see them in bed, but everyone knows they're a couple

[Xtopher]

wait, they are gay!?
GRRM never said that!

[Snow Ghost]

Xtopher, on 02 March 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

wait, they are gay!?
GRRM never said that!

Yup, they're gay even GRRM said that in an interview( or something like that) and even that show makes that veeeery clear.
And yeah Renly is usurping the throne, but Robert did the same, so what's so terrible about it?

[King Beyond The Wall]

After reading the whole post I have some things in my mind I would like to share...

Firstly, in my eyes (as a reader who knows most than anyone living in Westeros ofcourse) Stannis is the lawfull heir after Robert, since Cersei's children are Jaime's and not Robert's, and Renly HAD to back his brother. Renly is an opportunist who saw an opening and rushed in to take the throne, despite the fact that he did not deserve it. He was an usurper, and he judged Stannis without giving him the chance to rule first. Thiw had nothing to do with Robert's rebelion (which in fact wasn't Robert's alone) which began after Aerys the MAD did what he did for so many years...

Secondly, Stannis was presented to us as a dutifull, strict, and honorable person. One who once proposed to close all brothells in King's Landing, one who never opposed his older brother, even when he did him wrong by exiling him to Dragonstone. What was done to Renly... I can only believe that he didn't know about it beforehand, and what he said about sleeping in his tent when the murder was done and that he saw it in a nightmare...I only hope it is true. But what he did at the castellan of Storm's End, there is no doubt he knew what was about to be done, since he asked Davos secretely to smuggle Mel under the walls... So Stannis has changed, it is a fact, and in my eyes to the worst....

Finally, as to the war ethics...I think we should not judge an other era's opinions and ethics according to our time's ones... Yes you would think that assasinating one person is better than going to war and let thousands get killed... but we are talking about a time when dying in battle "on your feet" was an honoirable death, a good death, a death many wanted. Yes there were people like Tyrion even then, and like Jaime or Cersei. They always existed and always will...  Even Dany is more ethical than every Lannister I know of, and she is a Targaryen (and the rightest of all claims to the throne)!!!!

I personally am a fan of honor and virtue, yes I may live in a dream, I may live in a utopia, but this is who I am...and I like it!!!!

[R'hllor-Is-The-Truth]

My question is why come to the parley in the first place. Just murder Renly in his sleep. I doubt Stannis or Melisandre killed Renly

[Adamastor]

LuisDantas, on 25 February 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Rommel was much like most Germans (and many foreigners) in that he simply lacked in options.  Hitler was dutifully elected.  Choosing between major treason and murder conspiracy or just going on doing a soldier's job is how the matter presented itself in most situations.  It was not a reality show voting situation.

Uh, no he wasn't. He lost the elections to von Hindenburg, and then seized power by coercing people through violence until he managed to get enough power in the Reichstag to completely takeover. Nevertheless...

I say Stannis didn't know, or in the very least did not know how it would be done (especially in the case of the castellan). You can see in his reaction that he was rather heartbroken by the death of his brother, and has suffered since, even if they had grown apart as adults.

[LuisDantas]

What do you think he hoped to accomplish by commanding Davos to give Melisandre a ride, them?

[LuisDantas]

King Beyond The Wall, on 04 March 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

After reading the whole post I have some things in my mind I would like to share...

Firstly, in my eyes (as a reader who knows most than anyone living in Westeros ofcourse) Stannis is the lawfull heir after Robert, since Cersei's children are Jaime's and not Robert's, and Renly HAD to back his brother. Renly is an opportunist who saw an opening and rushed in to take the throne, despite the fact that he did not deserve it. He was an usurper, and he judged Stannis without giving him the chance to rule first.

Trouble is, there is no proof for any of that, and the inference that Renly owes loyalty to Stannis is all-out puzzling.  Where would that come from?

Renly is of course entitled to disagree with Stannis' claim, as is anyone.  It isn't safe for him to do so, but neither is it possible to deny him his judgement.

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This had nothing to do with Robert's rebelion (which in fact wasn't Robert's alone) which began after Aerys the MAD did what he did for so many years...

If so, doesn't it follow that the rightful heir is in fact Daenerys (as far as the Baratheons and Lannisters would know, anyway)?  

How could Stannis justify his claim without deriving it from Robert's?

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Secondly, Stannis was presented to us as a dutifull, strict, and honorable person.

In Davos' eyes, anyway.  Then we hear Stannis' speeches in ACOK, ASOS and ADWD and we learn better.  

Stannis is not Randyll Tarly, not by a very long shot.

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One who once proposed to close all brothels in King's Landing, one who never opposed his older brother,

If he never opposed Robert than he is a fool.  Robert was no avatar of wisdom, even if he was wiser than Stannis in this particular matter of the brothels.

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even when he did him wrong by exiling him to Dragonstone.

There was no exile.  Stannis was given Dragonstone but had no duty to remain there, and in fact lived in Dragonstone and participated of Robert's Small Council as Master of Ships.  He prefered Storm's End, which ended up with Renly and was seen as an indication of successorship, but that is a far cry from being exiled.

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What was done to Renly... I can only believe that he didn't know about it beforehand, and what he said about sleeping in his tent when the murder was done and that he saw it in a nightmare...I only hope it is true. But what he did at the castellan of Storm's End, there is no doubt he knew what was about to be done, since he asked Davos secretely to smuggle Mel under the walls... So Stannis has changed, it is a fact, and in my eyes to the worst....

Finally, as to the war ethics...I think we should not judge an other era's opinions and ethics according to our time's ones...

That is partially true.  But as it turns out, it is by using today's criteria that people give Stannis far more leniency than he deserves.

I find it interesting that the TV series made Varys aware that Renly was killed by dark sorcery (as per a conversation between Varys and Tyrion in S2E09).  Today's sensibilities have grown dull to the horror of his betray of Renly's trust.