27 replies to this topic

[the wolf warg]

i think it refers to the battle of dragons vs the others but im interested to see what theorys everyone else has?

[Lord Mord Goldengrill]

i always thought the "ice" refers to the Stark family... and the "fire" refers to the Targaryen family...

[Apple Martini]

Jon Snow.

Spoiler

Rhaegar = Fire
Lyanna = Ice
Jon = Ice and Fire

[the wolf warg]

Apple Martini, on 31 January 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Jon Snow.

Spoiler

Rhaegar = Fire
Lyanna = Ice
Jon = Ice and Fire

iv seen this theory so many times i think its bs what proof at all is there that ned isnt jon snows father everything in the story point to him being neds son

[The Shadowbinder]

the wolf warg, on 31 January 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

iv seen this theory so many times i think its bs what proof at all is there that ned isnt jon snows father everything in the story point to him being neds son

Well it seemed like Ned had something awfully important he wanted to tell Jon while he was imprisioned in the black cells and I seriously doubt it was that his mother was a fishwife

[ManyFacedOne]

Much and more. GRRM has said he's known for titles that have multiple meanings. My guesses - Others and dragons, Stark and Targaryen, winter and summer, or generally the relationship between opposite forces, beliefs, feelings, and characters.

[the wolf warg]

The Shadowbinder, on 31 January 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

Well it seemed like Ned had something awfully important he wanted to tell Jon while he was imprisioned in the black cells and I seriously doubt it was that his mother was a fishwife

ill have to go back and reread that chapter i dont remember him saying anything about jon

[Nagisa Furukawa]

the wolf warg, on 31 January 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

iv seen this theory so many times i think its bs what proof at all is there that ned isnt jon snows father everything in the story point to him being neds son

It comes down to three main parts:

1. Ned's chapters in A Game of Thrones
-Ned continually remembers Lyanna in the book, and very specific images. He remembers her in a bed of blood (which, in the Daenerys chapters, is also used to describe giving birth) and begging, "Promise me, Ned!" Many, many times he remembers this final promise he made to his sister without ever elaborating what it was. And the promise makes perfect sense in this context: this child is already dead the moment Robert finds out about it, so a promise to keep him safe from his best friend's wrath is something Ned would certainly do. Also, he remembers her associated with blue roses as well (this is important for Number 2).
-Notice how much Ned repeatedly thinks about the concept of lying for honor, and when he discusses it with Arya, he does so in a manor that suggests there are instances where lying is acceptable to retain honor (a theme, BTW, that also influences the Jon Snow chapters in ASoS) and that he has done so. I even think at one of these occassions, he remembers, "Promise me, Ned!" So he made a promise to Lyanna that forced him to lie with honor.
-The big one: The Tower of Joy flashback. It isn't all memory, there is some dream logic to it, but re-read it with "Lyanna had Rheagar's child" and it's so much clearer. It all but explicitly says it. There are Kingsguard protecting Lyanna's location. Why?! That's not the Kingsguard's job. The scene then systematically goes through the Targayeans and points out, "Nope, we know Rheagar got killed, nope, we're not with Viserys who's somewhere else and it's not our job to protect him, our job is HERE." Why would that be if not the *true* heir of the Seven Kingdoms is where Lyanna is in a bed of blood and soon after the battle, urges, "Promise me, Ned!" which forces him to lie for honor.

2. Daenerys' chapter in A Clash of Kings
-When Dany goes into The House of the Undying in ACoK, she sees a lot of weird visions from the past, present, and future. Lots of foreshadowing (like the RW) is in this scene, but there are a couple in particular to pay attention to. Remember Lyanna being constantly associated with blue roses? One of the images she sees is a blue rose growing on The Wall, the location where Lyanna's possibly son is soon to be made Lord Commander of.
-She also sees a vision of who is explicitly Rheagar and his wife. They look at Baby Aegon, who is proclaimed to be The Prince Who Was Promised and whose song is the one of Ice and Fire, except that the dragon has three heads.
-Later, Dany and Jorah explicitly discuss this dragon has three heads business, and how odd it is because Rheagar only had two children. If Jon was the third, it would be he who is The Prince Who Was Promised (and there's evidence for this in Book 5) and his song that would be the one of Ice and Fire, to answer the OP's question, because as said, he is the son of a man of fire and a woman of ice.

3. The Story of Rheagar and Lyanna
-The story is purposely set-up to give us Robert's POV on the situation first: Rheagar, a rapist and a kidnapper, takes his Beloved and kills her, so Robert kills him.
-But slowly, we see ONLY Robert has that opinion of Rheagar. When Dany is kind, Jorah notes that she seems more like Rheagar than Viserys. Barristan the Bold openly says negative things about Aerys and Viserys, but won't for Rheagar. Even Jaime Lannister, who killed Rheagar's father, remembers him in a positive light. Similarly, Lyanna is also postiviely remembered as an independent girl with her own spirit. She is compared to Arya a lot, both in personality and appearance, and remember Arya is also said to have that north look like Jon (people say why doesn't he look like a Targ, but they look that way because of inbreeding, and in this case, the Northern blood happens to be stronger than the Targ blood). But while she is looked back on in a very positive light, she is also remembered in having no interest in Robert either. So what we were first led to believe is now proved to be almost certainly wrong via everybody else. That's an important thing to remember with this theory; people say a lot of stuff about Jon's parentage, Ashara Dayne, Wylla, etc. but a lot of these people are going off misinformation and rumors. It's what's NOT said aloud about it that matters.
-Read Bran II in ASoS where Jojen and Meera tell Bran a story about a she-wolf. It's from the tournament at Harrenhall, and if you read between the lines, Lyanna is the she-wolf who joins the tourney as a mystery knight, and it's there that she and Rheagar fell in love.

Then there are other hints like Mormont's raven squawking "King!" at Jon, and other little moments like that.

[Apple Martini]

the wolf warg, on 31 January 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

iv seen this theory so many times i think its bs what proof at all is there that ned isnt jon snows father everything in the story point to him being neds son

Go read the R+L=J thread before you decide what's BS and what isn't, mmkay?

[Winter's Lady]

My interpretation: Song = Harmony, one can't exist without the other, there has to be balance. Very much like Ying and Yang. Could also refer to 'song'as a synonym to 'story'(I think the last epilogue should be a flash forward of really old Sansa or Bran telling their great-grandchildren the story of their life called 'the song of ice and fire')

The duality of Ice and fire is where it gets interesting.

Winter and Summer
Starks and Targaryens
The Great Other and R'hllor
The old gods and the Seven
The long Night and the Summer that never ends
Peace and War
direwolves and dragons

Could very well refer to Jon Snow if R+L=J which I do believe.

There are so many layers to that story, and hopefully some of it will be left open to Interpretation.

Edited by Lady of Oldcastle, 03 February 2012 - 04:28 AM.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Apple Martini, on 31 January 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Jon Snow.

Spoiler

Rhaegar = Fire
Lyanna = Ice
Jon = Ice and Fire

While I'm not sure if the song of ice and fire refers to a person, I agree that if indeed it does, it refers to Jon that seems to be the one who unites both, ice and fire and not to two people (Jon and Daenerys) being ice and fire, that would be kinda lame and Twilightish

[Winter's Lady]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 03 February 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

While I'm not sure if the song of ice and fire refers to a person, I agree that if indeed it does, it refers to Jon that seems to be the one who unites both, ice and fire and not to two people (Jon and Daenerys) being ice and fire, that would be kinda lame and Twilightish

Har! Twilightish indeed!
(still looking for the brain bleach to get those books outta my head. That's what happens when you listen to your friends...)

Edited by Lady of Oldcastle, 03 February 2012 - 05:59 AM.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Lady of Oldcastle, on 03 February 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Har! Twilightish indeed!
(still looking for the brain bleach to get those books outta my head. That's what happens when you listen to your friends...)

I haven't even read them, I started the first one cause my little sis said they were nice but no, then I saw a couple of movies on TV and still, no

[Arkash]

Ice and Fire ?

Everything in the world... that's simple and oh so complex at the same time !

[Winter's Lady]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 03 February 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

I haven't even read them, I started the first one cause my little sis said they were nice but no, then I saw a couple of movies on TV and still, no

I tried to resist them as long as I could, but two friends of mine kept bringing them up and told me how they liked them. I finally gave up because I wanted to know what all the fuzz was about. shouldn't have done that. Don't get me started on the movies. got dragged into one too. I have no idea why anybody swoons over this pattinson guy. seriously. [/off topic]

@ Arkash

Yeah, that's the beauty of it all! Reminds me of the poem 'Fire and Ice' by Robert Frost.

Edited by Lady of Oldcastle, 03 February 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[The Mother of The Others]

The wars have taken place in the lumbar region of Westeros----the lower back. When you have back pain the doctor sometimes says to treat it with alternating hot and cold.

[ForeverBallin]

Apple Martini, on 03 February 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

Go read the R+L=J thread before you decide what's BS and what isn't, mmkay?

Even if he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, he still a bastard, so what of that?

[ManyFacedOne]

ForeverBallin, on 03 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Even if he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, he still a bastard, so what of that?

That's debatable - not for this thread, though.

[PatrickStormborn]

Ultimately I think that the "song of ice and fire" refers to (as cheesy as this sounds) a balance between opposites, with the "War for Dawn" (a battle between opposites) being the major event that catalyses this.

[Apple Martini]

ForeverBallin, on 03 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Even if he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, he still a bastard, so what of that?

Highly debatable.

Edited by Apple Martini, 03 February 2012 - 01:22 PM.