60 replies to this topic

[7V3N]

Lightbringer, the flaming sword of Azor Ahai, is told to be the sword that can defeat the Great Other. But is it really a sword? I have a theory that the "sword" is metaphorical, as is the whole prophecy of the Prince Who Was Promised.

Quote

"... a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword."

Euron Crow's Eye supposedly got his dragon horn from the flames of Valyria in the remnants of the Doom.

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The Horn of Winter, also known as the Horn of Joramun, is a legendary horn with magical properties. It was supposedly blown by Joramun, a wildling King-Beyond-the-Wall. When he blew it, he woke the giants from the earth. When blown it could bring down the Wall.

Woke the giants may not be actual giants, it could be dragons. And "woke" may simply mean a summons, not some sort of birth or awakening. Also, it could bring down the Wall, not will or would. The uncertainty suggests more variables. If the Horn is used to control dragons, it is then up to the master to command the dragons to, say, burn the Wall down. I believe this is the same Horn owned by Euron.

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"To temper it this time, he captured a lion and drove the sword into its heart, but once more the steel shattered."

I take this to mean (whether AA did this or not) that it requires human sacrifice, and that no animal/creature may be replaced. Remember that the blower of Euron's Valyrian Horn must die.

Quote

According to Maester Aemon, the real Lightbringer both shone and radiated heat.

Victarion said:

Victarion ran his hand along it. The horn was as warm and smooth as the dusky woman's thighs, and so shiny that he could see a twisted likeness of his own features in its depths.

Victarion said:

The sound it [the dragonhorn] made ... it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon.

I know this is a stretch, but radiated heat could refer to some sort of radiation which is why the blower's insides eventually burn to ash. Also, the Valyrian glyphs do seem to "shine" in a way that draws the eyes, proven by Victarion's recollection to Moqorro.

I know that there are some unfavorable consequences of this theory, like Euron being AA reborn. But you never know what is to come, such as the Horn being "redrawn" from flames in some way to show a new PWWP. Also, I am aware that I am not an expert on GRRM's world and that there are likely things I have missed that contradict this theory (as all theory's have contradictions), so this is meant to be more thought provoking than rhetorical.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 11 February 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[Monk Meth-]

i don't think the horn of winter summons dragon.. giants and dragons.. i don't see that as a thing to ever be confused.

Edited by Monk Meth-, 01 February 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Serie]

I have thought too that the horn of Joramun might be the one that Euron possesses and claims to summon dragons. But that's up to where my imagination would go.
I don't believe that the horn could be the sword. Even if the word sword was used metaphorically, IMHO it would be a bad metaphor to describe a horn.
most of all, lightbringer was the sword of a hero (AA) who supposedly fought and beat the Others. How would be justified if the very same sword (or horn as this theory claims) could also bring the wall (the only protection that men have against the Others) down?

[Neo]

Why would a horn from Valyria have any connection with the Wall in Westeros?

I subsrcibe to the theory that the broken horn Jon found buried at the Fist of the First Men is the Horn of Joramun. Makes much more sense.

[7V3N]

Serie, on 01 February 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

How would be justified if the very same sword (or horn as this theory claims) could also bring the wall (the only protection that men have against the Others) down?

Because of dragons. The dragons can destroy either, which is why I point out that it doesn't specifically say that the Horn of Winter can bring down the wall directly. If it controls dragons, what's to say the dragons can't burn the Others and burn the Wall?

Remember that this is just a theory to get some talks and speculation going. I do not believe this will definitely turn out to be the case, but it was an interesting thought that crossed my mind that I feel deserves to be considered (until someone proves me wrong with hard evidence )

[The Sunset King]

If Moqorro came to believe this theory it would give him additional reasons to think that Victarion must ally with Daenerys/give her the horn or even that Victarion himself might be AA.

Edited by The Sunset King, 01 February 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Apple Martini]

I think that Lightbringer is metaphorical, but I don't believe that it's the dragon horn.

[7V3N]

Apple Martini, on 01 February 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I think that Lightbringer is metaphorical, but I don't believe that it's the dragon horn.

Just out of curiousity, what do you think it is?

[Apple Martini]

The Fox Lord, on 02 February 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

Just out of curiousity, what do you think it is?

The Night's Watch.

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Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

The guy who "wields" Lightbringer is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

To sum it up in incredibly brief terms:
The water: The ice from which the Wall is made
The lion: Symbolic of Night's Watch men holding no lands, titles or worldly "pride"
Nissa Nissa: The oath to take no wives

When Sam goes through the Nightfort — the oldest castle on the Wall, which is important — he only says a partial version of the Night's Watch vow. This is the vow he says to open the Black Gate.

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I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

Spot the differences, and what was left out? The Black Gate opens for Sam, implying that this version of the vows is sufficient for him to prove he's a Night's Watch man and go through the gate. There's an idea that this is actually the original vow (spoken at the original castle, that's why the castle's age is important) and that the parts about holding no lands, titles or glory and taking no wife were added later, which would fit with the idea that the Night's Watch has been "tempered"/altered/adapted from its original iterations.

The story of the Night's Watch defeating the Others in the Battle for the Dawn spread over to Asshai in the world's biggest game of telephone, and the red priests altered it, put their own cultural spin on it (i.e. Azor Ahai giving up his wife became him running a sword through her) and spat back out the prophecy about a guy with a flaming sword. The Azor Ahai prophecy is really just a different take on a Westerosi legend coming full circle.

That's my theory.

Edited by Apple Martini, 03 February 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[7V3N]

Apple Martini, on 03 February 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

The guy who "wields" Lightbringer is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

To sum it up in incredibly brief terms:
The water: The ice from which the Wall is made
The lion: Symbolic of Night's Watch men holding no lands, titles or worldly "pride"
Nissa Nissa: The oath to take no wives

Wow! I have never heard that one, but that's incredibly interesting!

Edited by The Fox Lord, 03 February 2012 - 02:08 AM.

[Apple Martini]

The Fox Lord, on 03 February 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

Wow! I have never heard that one, but that's incredibly interesting!

Thank you!

Whatever it ends up being, I definitely agree that we're not looking at an actual sword.

[7V3N]

Apple Martini, on 03 February 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Whatever it ends up being, I definitely agree that we're not looking at an actual sword.

I just can't imagine anybody taking down an army of wights along with the Others with a sword. Even if it is magical and amazing, when you have 10,000 dead men surrounding you, you can't just cut them all down.

I just realized-- the Night's Watch formed after the Long Night, which is when the supposed events of Azor Ahai occured. So how does that fit into your theory?

Edited by The Fox Lord, 03 February 2012 - 03:01 AM.

[Greyjoy the Reaver]

Apple Martini, on 03 February 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

The Night's Watch.

[/i][/font][/color]
The guy who "wields" Lightbringer is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

To sum it up in incredibly brief terms:
The water: The ice from which the Wall is made
The lion: Symbolic of Night's Watch men holding no lands, titles or worldly "pride"
Nissa Nissa: The oath to take no wives

When Sam goes through the Nightfort — the oldest castle on the Wall, which is important — he only says a partial version of the Night's Watch vow. This is the vow he says to open the Black Gate.

[/i][/font][/color]
Spot the differences, and what was left out? The Black Gate opens for Sam, implying that this version of the vows is sufficient for him to prove he's a Night's Watch man and go through the gate. There's an idea that this is actually the original vow (spoken at the original castle, that's why the castle's age is important) and that the parts about holding no lands, titles or glory and taking no wife were added later, which would fit with the idea that the Night's Watch has been "tempered"/altered/adapted from its original iterations.

The story of the Night's Watch defeating the Others in the Battle for the Dawn spread over to Asshai in the world's biggest game of telephone, and the red priests altered it, put their own cultural spin on it (i.e. Azor Ahai giving up his wife became him running a sword through her) and spat back out the prophecy about a guy with a flaming sword. The Azor Ahai prophecy is really just a different take on a Westerosi legend coming full circle.

That's my theory.

That is a very compelling theory.  I had not thought of that before.

[Jory]

The Night's Watch theory is probably one of the best to ever come out of these forums, but I don't think it will actually happen because it just makes so much sense and is so fucking cool, interesting, and intriguing, and the second-to-last chapter of A Dance with Dragons describes watery shit in intricate detail.

[7V3N]

Although I do find the Night's Watch theory interesting and would like to discuss it more, let's get back on topic please.

[Apple Martini]

Jory, on 03 February 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

The Night's Watch theory is probably one of the best to ever come out of these forums, but I don't think it will actually happen because it just makes so much sense and is so fucking cool, interesting, and intriguing, and the second-to-last chapter of A Dance with Dragons describes watery shit in intricate detail.

You're right. It's never going to happen.

The Shadow Fox, on 04 February 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Although I do find the Night's Watch theory interesting and would like to discuss it more, let's get back on topic please.

I apologize for going off-topic. While I disagree that the dragon horn is Lightbringer, I do agree that the parallels are kind of there, especially the need for a human "sacrifice" and the horn's supposed Valyrian/fiery origins.

Sorry, one last thing.

Quote

I just realized-- the Night's Watch formed after the Long Night, which is when the supposed events of Azor Ahai occured. So how does that fit into your theory?

It's mentioned, either in an Old Nan story or a song, I can't remember, in one of Bran's chapters, that the Night's Watch defeated the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, and that's really what ended the Long Night. So the timeline more or less fits. There is some disagreement in the Wiki about it, but the Wiki is user-created and the bit I mentioned is actually from the books, somewhere.

Found it, from Clash of Kings, pg. 330:

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When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a horn blast that set all the dogs to barking.

This pretty clearly links up Azor Ahai, the Night's Watch, the Last Hero and the Battle for the Dawn. So there you are. Now, back to the dragon horn!

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 February 2012 - 01:37 AM.

[7V3N]

Victarion:

Quote

Victarion ran his hand along it. The horn was as warm and smooth as the dusky woman's thighs, and so shiny that he could see a twisted likeness of his own features in its depths.

Quote

The sound it [the dragonhorn] made ... it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon.

This would solve Aemon's question to Sam (about Stannis's "Lightbringer"). It glows and emits heat (though not in a normal way). The heat seems to be one that burns the eyes or mind. Victarion's recollection here is very interesting.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 08 February 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[7V3N]

bump

[bemused]

Just let me digress a minute about the Night"s Watch theory . I find it very compelling. I haven't been coming here all that long ,so I was unaware that the theory existed , but I've been mightily suspicious about those lines "I am the light ..." and " I am the sword..." They just zapped my antennae.  But the difference in Sam's oath under the Night fort had eluded me... I always tend to trust Old Nan's versions where they diverge from other versions , so I always had my doubts about the time line.

I don't think the Dragon horn can be Lightbringer , it's just too convoluted a stretch, for me...but I think there will be some surprises in regard to it, too. I just don't think Moqorro is being entirely straight with Victarion, but telling him as much as is good for him ( Victarion ) to know ,without lying to him outright. When he says he has seen the glory that will be Victarion's, I can't help but feel a bit of the same vibe as when Drogon told Viserys he would have his golden crown.

Generally speaking, I don't trust the followers of R'hllor 's heavy reliance on sacrifice , so I've never trusted the bit about Victarion needing to bind the horn to himself with blood ,or the efficacy of all Mel's sacrifices, or for that matter, the Nissa-Nissa part of the Azor Ahai prophecy . ( I've always felt something was lost in the translation . ) ..And look at the leeches filled with Stannis' blood... I cant think they had much to do with the deaths of Robb or Joffrey , but if Mel had correctly seen their deaths, the leech business might help her win Stannis over.

Moqorro appears to be a bit more accurate than Mel at interpreting his visions .. but then we get a more intimate view of hers, so maybe he's not.. But just as Mel has her own agenda , I'm sure he has his... I'd love someone else who can read Valyrian to get a boo at that horn. I think it's important , but in some other way..

Edited by bemused, 14 February 2012 - 02:55 AM.

[lostinwesteros]

Apple Martini, on 03 February 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

[/i][/font][/color]
The guy who "wields" Lightbringer is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

To sum it up in incredibly brief terms:
The water: The ice from which the Wall is made
The lion: Symbolic of Night's Watch men holding no lands, titles or worldly "pride"
Nissa Nissa: The oath to take no wives

When Sam goes through the Nightfort — the oldest castle on the Wall, which is important — he only says a partial version of the Night's Watch vow. This is the vow he says to open the Black Gate.

[/i][/font][/color]
Spot the differences, and what was left out? The Black Gate opens for Sam, implying that this version of the vows is sufficient for him to prove he's a Night's Watch man and go through the gate. There's an idea that this is actually the original vow (spoken at the original castle, that's why the castle's age is important) and that the parts about holding no lands, titles or glory and taking no wife were added later, which would fit with the idea that the Night's Watch has been "tempered"/altered/adapted from its original iterations.

I am in total awe of putting this all together.  It makes perfect sense and also gives me great hopes that there will be, at the end of 2 (maybe 3?) more volumns, resolution (of the non-disastrous and somehow rewarding kind).  I'll have to admit, I'd begun to wonder about that just a bit.