60 replies to this topic

[Carpenter]

Apple Martini, on 03 February 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

The Night's Watch.

Quote

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Awesome catch. (And the smoothest capture of a thread in a long time, I might add.)

Jory, on 03 February 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

The Night's Watch theory is probably one of the best to ever come out of these forums, but I don't think it will actually happen because it just makes so much sense and is so fucking cool, interesting, and intriguing, and the second-to-last chapter of A Dance with Dragons describes watery shit in intricate detail.

LOL So true. For years when I thought of the words "A Dance With Dragons" I was picturing a battlefield turned into a sea of fire, dragons swooping down from the sky. Finally. After such a long wait. Instead we get the Mother of Dragons mothering fertilizer. Let's hope all the same that we get something as cool as the Night's Watch pulling its act together and becoming the Sword.

Edited by Carpenter, 16 February 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[Sworn Shield]

While I believe R+L=J is the most logical explanation, The only reason that causes me to have doubt is that Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne which gives him the possiblitly of weilding the Sword Dawn and becoming the Sword of the Morning as the sword goes to thre most worthy of it. The Sword is said to be made from a falling star which could be a metaphor for Nissa Nissa his wife. Dawn in general and the morning brings light to the world thus being a lightbringer

While I belive this to be one possibilty that I do not rule out, I agree with Apple Martini that Lightbringer is most likely the night's Watch.

[TheWanderer]

Well if the Night's Watch formed around the same time as the Last Hero and acted for the same purpose, wouldn't it make sense that he was a founding member? And if that's the case the lines in the vow could just have carried through from his literal vow to the more metaphorical modern vow, without any supernatural meaning.

That being said, I do really like this theory, especially the implications it has for Jon being AA.

And finally, to make this post slightly on topic. I don't really think the horn can be the sword. In any meaning a sword is a weapon, something to be used against the enemy directly. A horn, even a dragon binding horn, can't really be used as a weapon (at least not a good one). So while a metaphorical sword could be pretty much any kind of weapon (even an army or dragon) I don't really see how that can stretch to a horn. Also, Euron pulls the horn from Valaria but shouldn't the sword have been with the Last Hero (in Westeros)? Whereas if the sword has to be made/remade than I don't think Euron has done anything to it (aside form sacrificing the fat guy, is that his wife? jk).

Edited by TheWanderer, 16 February 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[7V3N]

One thing I can't get over is the name Azor Ahai. It sounds nothing like any of the other names we hear, even those of Northerners who have blood of the First Men. The only other name of the time I can think of is Brandon the Builder, a normal name. Azor Ahai just seems out of place. This doesn't provide any clues, it just brings up more questions--ones that should be asked. Maybe AA was a Child of the Forest, and Azor Ahai is an adaptation of the name (said in the True Tongue) in the Common Tongue? The name just seems to deserve questioning and I cannot seem to ignore it.

TheWanderer, on 16 February 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

And finally, to make this post slightly on topic. I don't really think the horn can be the sword. In any meaning a sword is a weapon, something to be used against the enemy directly. A horn, even a dragon binding horn, can't really be used as a weapon (at least not a good one). So while a metaphorical sword could be pretty much any kind of weapon (even an army or dragon) I don't really see how that can stretch to a horn. Also, Euron pulls the horn from Valaria but shouldn't the sword have been with the Last Hero (in Westeros)? Whereas if the sword has to be made/remade than I don't think Euron has done anything to it (aside form sacrificing the fat guy, is that his wife? jk).

Are dragons not often referred to the greatest weapons in war? Also, there's no telling how it got to Valyria. Perhaps the horn was taken by its owner (we never know what happened to Joramun) to Valyria? It's open-ended but GRRM does that too often to say it disproves this.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 16 February 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[TheWanderer]

The Shadow Fox, on 16 February 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Are dragons not often referred to the greatest weapons in war?

Yeah, I actually pointed that out in my post. The point is that even if the horn can get you a weapon it, in and of itself, is not a weapon. Just like I wouldn't call a smith a weapon.

Quote

Also, there's no telling how it got to Valyria. Perhaps the horn was taken by its owner (we never know what happened to Joramun) to Valyria? It's open-ended but GRRM does that too often to say it disproves this.

Why is it that you think Euron's dragon horn is Joramun's horn? Aside from the fact that the two do different things and are in completely different areas of the world (sarcasm).

Here's something I just thought about (and might actually link Joramun's horn and Lightbringer). If the Night's Watch vow is meant to describe things about the Last Hero then one of their lines is "I am the horn that wakes the sleepers." and Joramun's horn 'woke giants from the earth' even if the giants are just regular giants, there's still the implication that they were 'sleeping' beneath the earth.

[Precursor]

I think the theory that Lightbringer=Euron's Dragon horn is far stronger, and actually pretty credible without adding in the horn of Joramun.

[SerDanielstanTheBold]

If a Warg can bypass the ability of Victarions horn, and control a dragon directly, then their goes the "Ultimate Weapon" theory. It'd be a pretty useless 'lightbringer' unless there was like 1000 dragons and only the one was turned against you.

Also I like the Nights Watch theory, except that R'hollor and the great Other have supposedly been in an eternal struggle of good vs evil since the beginning of time.   Which means that the long night was probably one of many. Who fought the Others before AA ? The first men? The Andals? Or the children of the forest? Was the Battle for the Dawn conclusive? Is the next big battle with the Others gonna be the definitive fight where winner takes all and the losers cease to exist for the end of time?

I don't think Lightbringer is a sword, but I also don't think its a horn or the Nights Watch for that matter.

Edited by SerDanielstanTheBold, 17 February 2012 - 02:25 AM.

[7V3N]

Precursor, on 17 February 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

I think the theory that Lightbringer=Euron's Dragon horn is far stronger, and actually pretty credible without adding in the horn of Joramun.

Well that is more of my belief that the two are one which, if true, assists the theory that the horn is Lightbringer.

[Precursor]

But what's your evidence for that? Just the little quoted passage you had?

[Apple Martini]

SerDanielstanTheBold, on 17 February 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

Also I like the Nights Watch theory, except that R'hollor and the great Other have supposedly been in an eternal struggle of good vs evil since the beginning of time.   Which means that the long night was probably one of many. Who fought the Others before AA ? The first men? The Andals? Or the children of the forest? Was the Battle for the Dawn conclusive? Is the next big battle with the Others gonna be the definitive fight where winner takes all and the losers cease to exist for the end of time?

The Others might be associated with "The Great Other" but I don't think they're synonymous. The First Men and the Children of the Forest would have been the only ones in Westeros during the Long Night, if the timeline is even somewhat accurate. This was long before the Andals or anyone else got there. The Battle for the Dawn was probably thought conclusive at the time but obviously it wasn't. In any case, I don't put that much stock in the red priest version of things; I think it's just a bastardization of what really happened, gone through a cultural context and a bad, bad mistranslations over millennia.

Quote

I don't think Lightbringer is a sword, but I also don't think its a horn or the Nights Watch for that matter.

So what is it, pray tell?

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 February 2012 - 02:28 AM.

[SerDanielstanTheBold]

Apple Martini, on 17 February 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

So what is it, pray tell?

Lol, I totally glazed over that, but I suppose I don't really have a clue.

[7V3N]

Precursor, on 17 February 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

But what's your evidence for that? Just the little quoted passage you had?

Really, not more I can think of without rereading. It's like the whole "it was right under your nose all along" feeling. Also, I just don't believe this sword of heroes will be revealed in some great moment. I think GRRM has left it hidden within his story and we know of it already. The horn connection is honestly most a gut feeling, but the horn=Lightbringer one has enough evidence to be considered plausible.

[Carpenter]

The Shadow Fox, on 17 February 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

Really, not more I can think of without rereading. It's like the whole "it was right under your nose all along" feeling. Also, I just don't believe this sword of heroes will be revealed in some great moment. I think GRRM has left it hidden within his story and we know of it already. The horn connection is honestly most a gut feeling, but the horn=Lightbringer one has enough evidence to be considered plausible.

Really, no. A horn is another object. You don't turn one object into another object in legends. You have an object be a metaphor, or a metaphor becomes interpreted as an object, but one object doesn't substitute for another. A horn is not a weapon, that also goes for one that hypnotizes dragons. Like The Wanderer says, you don't call a smith a weapon just because he is useful in making weapons.

The Shadow Fox, on 16 February 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

One thing I can't get over is the name Azor Ahai. It sounds nothing like any of the other names we hear, even those of Northerners who have blood of the First Men. The only other name of the time I can think of is Brandon the Builder, a normal name. Azor Ahai just seems out of place. This doesn't provide any clues, it just brings up more questions--ones that should be asked. Maybe AA was a Child of the Forest, and Azor Ahai is an adaptation of the name (said in the True Tongue) in the Common Tongue? The name just seems to deserve questioning and I cannot seem to ignore it.

Azor Ahai. It is used in a story from Essos. Where people have names with z in them. You don't have to theorize about the completely unknown names of the Children of the Forest, when you have an answer right in front of you. When you hear hoofsteps, assume horse, not zebra.

[7V3N]

Carpenter, on 17 February 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Really, no. A horn is another object. You don't turn one object into another object in legends. You have an object be a metaphor, or a metaphor becomes interpreted as an object, but one object doesn't substitute for another. A horn is not a weapon, that also goes for one that hypnotizes dragons. Like The Wanderer says, you don't call a smith a weapon just because he is useful in making weapons.

The quoted post you had was completely unrelated. That referred to the dragonhorn being Joramun's horn, which has little evidence as I said, but is also not the main discussion of this topic. I don't see how you cannot call it a weapon. It apparently controls the most destructive beings in the world. I'm sure Euron would argue it is his greatest weapon. Also, charisma and manipulation are not weapons in the literal sense, but we see Littlefinger and Varys use them as such.

Carpenter, on 17 February 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Azor Ahai. It is used in a story from Essos. Where people have names with z in them. You don't have to theorize about the completely unknown names of the Children of the Forest, when you have an answer right in front of you. When you hear hoofsteps, assume horse, not zebra.

Used in the stories in Essos, but still supposedly a man in Westeros. My point is, the name suggests that he was not some normal Westerosi, that he was not a First Man at all. This just supports my thought that the legend is a metaphor. I am not saying he was a CotF or whatever, I am just saying the name draws speculation as to whether Azor Ahai is a First Man or not.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 17 February 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[TheWanderer]

The Shadow Fox, on 17 February 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

I don't see how you cannot call it a weapon. It apparently controls the most destructive beings in the world. I'm sure Euron would argue it is his greatest weapon. Also, charisma and manipulation are not weapons in the literal sense, but we see Littlefinger and Varys use them as such.

I think there's a big difference between something being useful for a war and it being a weapon. A weapon is something you turn directly against the enemy, something that is itself capable of dealing death and destruction. A sword is a weapon, a dragon could be considered one, so could a soldier. On the other hand charisma and manipulation cannot be used to kill people directly. Yes, you could manipulate someone into killing someone else for you but in that case I consider the 'sword' to be the headsman, not the manipulation. Same thing for a dragon horn. Euron's greatest weapon is the dragons, he just doesn't have them yet. The horn is useless until it binds a dragon, then it becomes useless again because the dragon is what you want. A smith can forge many swords and is something that I would consider extremely necessary for a war but I would never call one a weapon. They make weapons, they are not weapons themselves.

[7V3N]

Wikipedia said:

A weapon, arm, or armament is a tool or instrument used with the aim of causing damage or harm (either physical or mental) to living beings or artificial structures or systems.

Dictionary.com said:

Weapon: anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim.

I think it is simply how you define weapon.

[drewr15]

Personally, I think Lightbringer is Arthur Dayne's Sword of the Morning. Besides Dawn bringing light - they mentioned in book 2 I think that it was basically built from meteorite rock.

[James Smith]

If "lightbringer" is not a sword will there need to be a Nissa Nissa?  Will the sacrifice have to be the PTWP's most loved?

If it is a sword will it need to be completely reforged or is it going to be some great Val. sword we have heard about?

Edited by James Smith, 28 February 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[Know Face Man]

I believe the Nissa Nissa story was a form of Blood Magic. Azor Ahai stabbed Nissa in the heart which spilled her blood and sacrificed her life.

So in order to make another Lightbringer, someone would need to use another form of Blood Magic to forge it.

Daenerys has done this with her Dragons, sacrificing Mirri Maz Duur to hatch them from eggs.

[Eejit]

I don't see the Valyrian Dragon Horn being the Horn of Joramun - it would have to be much older than the Freehold itself in that case.

I also think that Dany's Dragons are the most likely 'non-sword Lightbringer', with Drogo as Nissa Nissa. The Night's Watch idea cherry-picks from their oath too much for me, ignoring the parts of it which don't match up with the AA story.