134 replies to this topic

[Lummel]

tze, on 03 February 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Well . . . the North Remembers. This gets repeated on and on for the other Lords of the North, so why not Roose Bolton as well? I'm genuinely starting to wonder if everything Roose has done hasn't been driven by greed for power, but rather, has all been part of a plan for revenge against Ramsay. ... I think Roose isn't trying to build up House Bolton, he's sacrificing it, all to avenge Domeric.

That's a very interesting interpretation Tze .  Don't know if I agree, but definitely worth thinking about.

Roose's hand there on Ramsey's wheel of fortune, raising him up to savour his suffering later on.  Food for thought.

Edited by Lummel, 03 February 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[Bran Vras]

Hard to believe, tze, but entertaining, thanks.

[Nukelavee]

I don't know if Tze is right or not, but, I've often wondered the same things.

So, do the Boltons follow the old gods?

[Gurkhal]

Nukelavee, on 03 February 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

I don't know if Tze is right or not, but, I've often wondered the same things.

So, do the Boltons follow the old gods?

I think its a given that as Northmen the Boltons do indeed follow the Old Gods unless they specifically mentioned as not following them.

[Stark@heart]

I think that makes alot of sense.

  I could never figure out how Roose expected to walk out of the Twins as the new Warden of the North and not be named as betrayer along side the Freys and have everyone out for his blood.  The Lannisters aren't that powerful even if Jamie still had two hands and Tywin was still alive and neither is the Iron Throne for that matter.  The North is a long way away from Casterly Rock and Kings Landing.  Him expecting to hold the North long term seems kinda absurd.  Roose is suppose to be smart and calculating.  Either he screwed up  big time or he expected it to blow up.. in Ramsey's face.  I like it!

[vogorroswhore]

I think Roose is a true sociopath.  And I think he's setting up Ramsay for an epic takedown.

[BreastplateWithNipples]

Stark@heart, on 03 February 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

I think that makes alot of sense.

  I could never figure out how Roose expected to walk out of the Twins as the new Warden of the North and not be named as betrayer along side the Freys and have everyone out for his blood.  The Lannisters aren't that powerful even if Jamie still had two hands and Tywin was still alive and neither is the Iron Throne for that matter.  The North is a long way away from Casterly Rock and Kings Landing.  Him expecting to hold the North long term seems kinda absurd.  Roose is suppose to be smart and calculating.  Either he screwed up  big time or he expected it to blow up.. in Ramsey's face.  I like it!

Roose could assert himself as Warden of the North because he was the only lord left with a powerful military force. Most other lords' forces had either been destroyed by Lannisters (the forces that made the detour to Duskendale, also the troops lost in the river crossing at the end of the campaign) or butchered at the Red Wedding. As one of Robb's most prominent commanders, Roose Bolton had a hand in all of this. In the story it is implied that he sent the forces to the Duskendale expedition, knowing they would run into Lannisters and be killed, and also that he planned for his rear guard to get ambushed at the river crossing when they were pulling back towards the Twins.

When the Red Wedding was over, Roose was where he wanted to be: The biggest remaining lord, with no one left in the north who could oppose him openly. Glovers, Umbers, Cerwyns, Manderlys and all the others had lost most or all of their men; and even if they hated Roose's guts they couldn't move against him.

[BreastplateWithNipples]

vogorroswhore, on 03 February 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

I think Roose is a true sociopath.  And I think he's setting up Ramsay for an epic takedown.

How so? How is anything he does different from what Tywin Lannister did? Roose is cruel, cunning, treacherous and ambitious, a man who orders the death of people or the terrorization of entire regions without a second thought. But none of that makes him a psycho.

He and Tywin are like twin brothers, they're very similar in how they approach things. The only difference is that Roose is from an "underdog" northmen house with a bad reputation, while Tywin is the scion of a rich and respected house of the south.

[Ser Illin']

Roose would have to be much, much crazier than anyone could have imagined to raise up House Bolton and intentionally bring it down on Ramsay as revenge for Domeric. Ramsay was not always a Bolton, he was first a Snow. No one would have lifted a finger if some northern bastard with a penchant for rape and murder were to suffer an unfortunate "accident."

Would Roose be worried about Kinslaying? Randyll Tarly certainly wasn't. Nor were the Starks of Winterfell when their kin rose up against them. Even after Ramsay became a Bolton, Roose could just as easily have arrested Ramsay for what he did to Lady Hornwood or to any of the servant girls he hunted. He could have then gotten a headsman to execute him for his crimes, with no kinslaying involved. Point is, Roose can get rid of Ramsay a hundred different ways. Why go through all the trouble of betraying his liege lord and earning the enmity of all the north just to get rid of a troublesome bastard?

I think Roose simply saw the opportunity for a power grab and made it.

[Ladywhiskers]

vogorroswhore, on 03 February 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

I think Roose is a true sociopath.  And I think he's setting up Ramsay for an epic takedown.

Absolutely. I think his story of Ramsay's conception pretty much says it all. Roose isn't an idiot, but he's not that smart. He's just a sociopath who believes himself to be a genius. Like father, like son. Roose earned himself a son like Ramsay, with his own sadistic treatment of people, and his amazing shallowness. Ser Illin' is right--he could have done something to avenge Domerick a million times. He just doesn't care.

Tywin is sometimes cruel, but he's not a sociopath. He loved Joanna very much. He loved his mother and respected her. And although his way of showing it is often twisted, he loves Cersei and Jaime, at least, if not Tyrion. Roose, OTOH, never loved anyone in his entire life. His Randian attitude about losing Domerick is proof of that. He's almost proud of the monster he's made. Almost.

It's a simple, short-sighted power grab, as Ser Illin' said. Roose isn't a deep-thinking, bigger picture sort of man. He's the kind of man who rapes a girl by the side of the road and is surprised when she brings him a bastard later.

[Lummel]

Ser Illin',

Did Randyl Tarley kill any of his kin?  I think he felt that Samwell was enough of a coward that he would only have to threaten him and he goes out of his way to do this in a theatrical manner just to be on the safe side.

Ladywhiskers,
Isn't Roose's surprise more that a woman he raped and whose husband he killed would have the audacity (or stupidity) to turn up at his gates and ask for maintenance money rather than being surprised that babies are the result of sex?

I wonder if Roose is rasher than generally thought, I suppose the chance at overthrowing the Starks is a fair bit rarer than a once in a lifetime opportunity though.  Provided Fat Walda starts bearing him some children then Roose is still in position to have Ramsey turned into the next Reek to aid their education into their Dreadfort heritage.

[the Remarkable Other]

If Roose wanted only to avenge Domeric he could have simply gotten married long before he ever went south with Robb, sired a new heir in order to secure his bloodline and arranged a hunting accident for Ramsay. Or turn him to Ned Stark to be executed for his crimes in order to avoid being known as a kinslayer.
The bad blood is form his mother's side after all.

[Kurhill]

the small other, on 04 February 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

If Roose wanted only to avenge Domeric he could have simply gotten married long before he ever went south with Robb, sired a new heir in order to secure his bloodline and arranged a hunting accident for Ramsay. Or turn him to Ned Stark to be executed for his crimes in order to avoid being known as a kinslayer.
The bad blood is form his mother's side after all.

Based on awoiaf Domeric Bolton died in 297. His mother Bethany Ryswell died "of a fever" in 298 shortly before the War of Five Kings started. Apparently Ramsay was brought to Dreadfort after Domerics' death. It makes me wonder whether Ramsay had anything to do with her death.

Anyway, Roose remaried most likely few months after Bethany died (maybe he killed her, because she was too old to have more children?).

[Bran Vras]

A few open questions about Roose Bolton and a conjecture.

1) If I am not mistaken, Bethany Ryswell was his second wife. I do not think the first wife is ever mentioned. Domeric had brothers who died very young. Were they the children of the first wife?

2) Domeric is described a better horseman than Lyanna Stark, which seems to imply they were of a similar age. Since Lyanna would be 33, Domeric would likely be at least thirty. Since Roose is in his forties, that does not seem to leave much time for him to marry twice and father a son.

3) There is this mysterious passage in ACoK. Arya is Roose's page in Harrenhal in the following scene:

Quote

Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. “Light some candles,” he commanded her as he turned a page. “It grows gloomy in here.”
She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them.

We have too few informations to formulate any decent conjecture. Is it a book found in Harrenhal? Related to dragons perhaps. In any case, it signifies that something is missing in our understanding of Roose.

4) Roose becomes friend with Qyburn in Harrenhal. It seems to me that the leeching habit has nothing to do with Qyburn. But I am not sure.

Finally a conjecture. It's less wild than what tze proposes. The suggestion that Ramsay killed Domeric comes entirely from Roose, it seems. Why would Roose spread such rumours? It's because Roose is himself responsible for Domeric's untimely death. Of course having a psychopath like Ramsay at home provides a convenient cover up, and would explain why Ramsay has finally been admitted at the Dreadfort. When you recall that other sons have died in infancy, it begins to sound suspiciously like Craster's dealings. I am thinking as I type, and I come to think that if Roose is in league with the Others (which is compatible with the destruction of House Stark, of course), that might explain Roose's gloomy predictions for the future. You might want to forget the last couple of sentences and concentrate on the idea that Roose himself killed Domeric and used Ramsay as a scapegoat.

Edited by Bran Vras, 04 February 2012 - 06:02 PM.

[chrisdaw]

Is what he is, an unsentimental dynasty builder who is either terminally ill or knows his death is somehow imminent and so Ramsay is the only future. Very possibly something supernatural about his imminent death and Ramsay's future. He doesn't lie to Reek, no-one is lying to Reek, that's Reeks purpose in the text, someone characters can bounce their inner thoughts off of because he is meaningless, a way of providing POVs where a whole chapter is not warranted.

[Bran Vras]

Additional comments on

Bran Vras, on 04 February 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

3) There is this mysterious passage in ACoK. Arya is Roose's page in Harrenhal in the following scene:

Quote

Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. “Light some candles,” he commanded her as he turned a page. “It grows gloomy in here.”
She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them.

Since Roose realizes it's becoming dark, it means he has been reading for some time, presumably captivated. The comment "It grows gloomy in here." can be understood as referring to what he is reading. Apparenly he did not complete the reading. He did not decide to burn the book in anger (because he reads something that upset him). I'd be inclined to explore two possibilities: 1) the obvious one is that Roose found the book in Harrenhal and destroyed it because there was something in it that Roose did not want to be known.  2) The other possibility is that the burning is a kind of mystical sacrifice, as suggested by the presence by the ghost, the light reflected in Roose's eyes (usually, no passion is perceptible those eyes).

In any case, the destruction of the book has to be significant. Finally, I wonder if Qyburn had a role in all this. He seems to have become Roose's maester in Harrenhal and is himself a passionate devotee of the dark arts. He must have checked if there was any library of value in Harrenhal when he arrived there, and perhaps used his findings to become friend with the new lord in charge.

Edited by Bran Vras, 05 February 2012 - 06:42 AM.

[Nukelavee]

So, it's pretty much a given, then, that the Bolton's worship the old Gods.

Who seemed to be "ok" with human sacrifice.

Bear with me.  The Boltons have ALWAYS been a danger to the Starks, their main rivals, yet.....the Boltons persist, after rebelling over and over and over...Hell, they even killed a Stark, a King.  

Sacrifice, blood magic, ritualistic killings..., and a bloody handed House that always endures.

So - hmmm, do the Boltons have a secret history of using whatever magic is available to them?  I mean, here we have Roose, oddly ageless, ruthless...cold.  Weakening the North by purging the Starks and their loyalists, and the Others are waiting.

So, is Roose the great other, or on the side of the Others?

Mayhaps, sweet children...

[trins]

Bran Vras, on 04 February 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

A few open questions about Roose Bolton and a conjecture.

1) If I am not mistaken, Bethany Ryswell was his second wife. I do not think the first wife is ever mentioned. Domeric had brothers who died very young. Were they the children of the first wife?

2) Domeric is described a better horseman than Lyanna Stark, which seems to imply they were of a similar age. Since Lyanna would be 33, Domeric would likely be at least thirty. Since Roose is in his forties, that does not seem to leave much time for him to marry twice and father a son.

3) There is this mysterious passage in ACoK. Arya is Roose's page in Harrenhal in the following scene:



We have too few informations to formulate any decent conjecture. Is it a book found in Harrenhal? Related to dragons perhaps. In any case, it signifies that something is missing in our understanding of Roose.

4) Roose becomes friend with Qyburn in Harrenhal. It seems to me that the leeching habit has nothing to do with Qyburn. But I am not sure.

Finally a conjecture. It's less wild than what tze proposes. The suggestion that Ramsay killed Domeric comes entirely from Roose, it seems. Why would Roose spread such rumours? It's because Roose is himself responsible for Domeric's untimely death. Of course having a psychopath like Ramsay at home provides a convenient cover up, and would explain why Ramsay has finally been admitted at the Dreadfort. When you recall that other sons have died in infancy, it begins to sound suspiciously like Craster's dealings. I am thinking as I type, and I come to think that if Roose is in league with the Others (which is compatible with the destruction of House Stark, of course), that might explain Roose's gloomy predictions for the future. You might want to forget the last couple of sentences and concentrate on the idea that Roose himself killed Domeric and used Ramsay as a scapegoat.

she's definitely the first wife to Roose Bolton... and Domeric squired for a Redford lord for three years.  Now considering the ages of most of the squires in asoiaf, Domeric should be no more than 20 years old when he died ...

I'm really confused about Roose Bolton's actions towards his crazy bastard.  I also think that he's more attracted to his bastard than he was toward his own son Domeric, maybe he sees more of himself in Ramsey.  I however do not believe Roose Bolton would go through everything just to bring Ramsey down, he's a bastard he literally has no power unless he is given it.

[Armstark]

Bran Vras, on 05 February 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Additional comments on




Since Roose realizes it's becoming dark, it means he has been reading for some time, presumably captivated. The comment "It grows gloomy in here." can be understood as referring to what he is reading. Apparenly he did not complete the reading. He did not decide to burn the book in anger (because he reads something that upset him). I'd be inclined to explore two possibilities: 1) the obvious one is that Roose found the book in Harrenhal and destroyed it because there was something in it that Roose did not want to be known.  2) The other possibility is that the burning is a kind of mystical sacrifice, as suggested by the presence by the ghost, the light reflected in Roose's eyes (usually, no passion is perceptible those eyes).

In any case, the destruction of the book has to be significant. Finally, I wonder if Qyburn had a role in all this. He seems to have become Roose's maester in Harrenhal and is himself a passionate devotee of the dark arts. He must have checked if there was any library of value in Harrenhal when he arrived there, and perhaps used his findings to become friend with the new lord in charge.

I always thought this book that Roose burned was a codebook. To encript messages from Tywin etc. Now the communication was over, the red wedding planned so he burned the evidence (the book).

[Bran Vras]

trins, on 06 February 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

she's definitely the first wife to Roose Bolton... and Domeric squired for a Redford lord for three years.  Now considering the ages of most of the squires in asoiaf, Domeric should be no more than 20 years old when he died ...

Roose said twice that Bethany was her second wife. Odd, isn't it? You must be right about Domeric. How to explain that Domeric was "such a rider that even the Stark girl couldn't outrace him" ?

Edited by Bran Vras, 06 February 2012 - 04:26 PM.