134 replies to this topic

[ElizaMartell]

Kurhill, on 07 February 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

If Roose is as smart as he thinks he is then he should use the remaining spearwives or Mance (if he's captured) to point out that Stannis is in cahoots with the wildlings and that they took his dear daughter-in-law.

The 'dear daughter-in-law' who people in the castle know Ramsey has not been treating well. Would it be too much to think that Arya was 'rescued'  by Reek and his companions due to her pleading?

Edited by ElizaMartell, 07 February 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It sucks for me as a reader.

I like both Stannis and Roose, but I realize that it's unlikely both of them will come out of this scuffle alive. Something has to give...

What if Roose bent the knee to Stannis? He's slippery enough to do it, seeing how chaotic the situation is for the Lannisters in KL, but I doubt Stannis would even accept. Roose has betrayed a King before, after all

[Ladywhiskers]

ElizaMartell, on 07 February 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

The 'dear daughter-in-law' who people in the castle know Ramsey has not been treating well. Would it be too much to think that Arya was 'rescued'  by Reek and his companions due to her pleading?

I'm sure everyone in the castle knows that's what really happened. Lady Dustin pointed out that if Ramsay wanted to keep the North, he'd better "teach his wife to laugh." Instead he taught her to agree to do it with the dog, and consider herself lucky he didn't cut her feet off to keep her from running away.

Roose can't do a thing about it. If he had any ability to "reign in" Ramsay whatsoever, Domerick would never have died in the first place.

[ElizaMartell]

Ladywhiskers, on 08 February 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

I'm sure everyone in the castle knows that's what really happened. Lady Dustin pointed out that if Ramsay wanted to keep the North, he'd better "teach his wife to laugh." Instead he taught her to agree to do it with the dog, and consider herself lucky he didn't cut her feet off to keep her from running away.

Roose can't do a thing about it. If he had any ability to "reign in" Ramsay whatsoever, Domerick would never have died in the first place.

That's my point. The Northern lords would believe she managed to run away with Reek. The idea that Roose can spin it into "My poor son has lost his darling wife due to that stinky old Reek and bald Stannis" while waxing poetry about their epic romance seems a tad unlikely. Instead its more like that Roose will try to divert attention into something else like 'Arya' being stolen from her ancesteral home by mad old Stannis or something.

Roose purposely let Ramsey carry on in the understanding he'd look better in comparison. Does Arya's disapearance and the killings change this? It will take some time to say.

Edited by ElizaMartell, 08 February 2012 - 07:53 AM.

[Walder_Frey]

Ramsay Gimp, on 07 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

It sucks for me as a reader.

I like both Stannis and Roose, but I realize that it's unlikely both of them will come out of this scuffle alive. Something has to give...

What if Roose bent the knee to Stannis? He's slippery enough to do it, seeing how chaotic the situation is for the Lannisters in KL, but I doubt Stannis would even accept. Roose has betrayed a King before, after all

I'm pretty sure that if he bent a knee to Stannis, that he'd end up getting decapitated or burned alive.

Remember, Stannis' best advisor had his fingers taken off for a much lesser crime than treason, and that was AFTER Davos had saved Stannis' life.

[Ramsay Gimp]

ElizaMartell, on 08 February 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

That's my point. The Northern lords would believe she managed to run away with Reek. The idea that Roose can spin it into "My poor son has lost his darling wife due to that stinky old Reek and bald Stannis" while waxing poetry about their epic romance seems a tad unlikely. Instead its more like that Roose will try to divert attention into something else like 'Arya' being stolen from her ancesteral home by mad old Stannis or something.

Roose purposely let Ramsey carry on in the understanding he'd look better in comparison. Does Arya's disapearance and the killings change this? It will take some time to say.

Ah, but remember that Theon Turncloak killed Arya Stark's child brothers in the eyes of the North. Why would she flee with him?

[Lummel]

Seeing that Roose has to remind Ramsey of that in Barrowton I would how many know the truth because of Ramsey's blabbing?

[WetHair]

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Roose was working with Mance to help Arya escape?  I'm at work so I can't think what he would gain by that or how he would know that Abel even wanted to rescue Arya.  Probably if I was at home I still couldn't think of a reason; it would just be sort of nifty.

[Kurhill]

ElizaMartell, on 07 February 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

The 'dear daughter-in-law' who people in the castle know Ramsey has not been treating well. Would it be too much to think that Arya was 'rescued'  by Reek and his companions due to her pleading?

We know that the spearwives have been either killed or captured (as did Mance). If they were captured i highly doubt they would keep their real identities from Ramsay or Roose. Stannis has made a big show out of the burning of "the king beyond the wall" and announced it to the world. He would look like a total liar. Northern lords hate Boltons, but they hate the wildlings even more.

Edited by Kurhill, 08 February 2012 - 04:35 PM.

[ElizaMartell]

Kurhill, on 08 February 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

We know that the spearwives have been either killed or captured (as did Mance). If they were captured i highly doubt they would keep their real identities from Ramsay or Roose. Stannis has made a big show out of the burning of "the king beyond the wall" and announced it to the world. He would look like a total liar. Northern lords hate Boltons, but they hate the wildlings even more.

But if they know 'Arya' had been treated unkindly by Ramsey don't you think they'd wonder how desperate she was to escape even if it meant dealing with wildings?

[Ramsay Gimp]

ElizaMartell, on 08 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

But if they know 'Arya' had been treated unkindly by Ramsey don't you think they'd wonder how desperate she was to escape even if it meant dealing with wildings?

You might be putting too much stock in the Lords' supposed concern for Arya. I'm sure they would be bothered by Ramsay's treatment, but a girl crying around the castle isn't going to sway them as much as some people think. And they don't know the shit he's done behind closed doors, with the dogs and such

[Ramsay Gimp]

Lummel, on 08 February 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

Seeing that Roose has to remind Ramsey of that in Barrowton I would how many know the truth because of Ramsey's blabbing?

Ramsay isn't retarded. He said he killed the boys with only Roose and Theon present. He's not going around telling everyone - if that were the case he'd already be dead

[Kurhill]

ElizaMartell, on 08 February 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

But if they know 'Arya' had been treated unkindly by Ramsey don't you think they'd wonder how desperate she was to escape even if it meant dealing with wildings?

First of all they can hear how Ramsay treats her, it's also implied that they know that it's not even Arya. My point applied to the conflict between Stannis and the Boltons. We all know that if it was Robb or Ned then northern lords would jump the sinking Bolton ship as soon as they could, but a lot of people seem to think that most of them will betray Roose and join Stannis. Personally i find it doubtful for many reasons. Besides why would they think that Arya escaped and not that she was forcefully abducted?

[Ladywhiskers]

Ramsay Gimp, on 08 February 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Ah, but remember that Theon Turncloak killed Arya Stark's child brothers in the eyes of the North. Why would she flee with him?

Because Ramsay Bolton made Lady Hornwood eat her own fingers and was dismembering Theon Greyjoy bit by bit, and it was apparent to the entire court that Ramsay was torturing his bride. I doubt anyone actually believes Theon abducted "Arya." I'm sure everyone knows that this was an escape from Ramsay's cruelty.

The Freys and some of the Northern lords might pretend to think that there's been a kidnapping, but they know the score. The murders of Bran and Rickon didn't stop "Arya" from letting Theon give her away at her wedding, so why would they be a factor in letting him rescue her, if her groom were torturing her to death, and her life depended on getting out of there? The Northmen understand survival. Nobody is going to give Theon points for heroism, but they're not going to expect that he'd have to force her to leave Ramsay, after what they all saw of that marriage, and what they all know of his track record.

[Ladywhiskers]

Kurhill, on 08 February 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

First of all they can hear how Ramsay treats her, it's also implied that they know that it's not even Arya. My point applied to the conflict between Stannis and the Boltons. We all know that if it was Robb or Ned then northern lords would jump the sinking Bolton ship as soon as they could, but a lot of people seem to think that most of them will betray Roose and join Stannis. Personally i find it doubtful for many reasons. Besides why would they think that Arya escaped and not that she was forcefully abducted?

Well, the main thing is, what would be the point of forcefully abducting her? Who would benefit? What would Theon stand to gain, by abducting her, and running off into the snow? By running away, he gets away from Ramsay--everyone understands that. But why slow himself down by taking the woman? As a hostage? The last thing Theon needed was a reluctant, resisting girl, and it would have been very, very hard to abduct her against her will. It was hard enough to get her out of there with her cooperation! One scream and all the guards would have come running and cut Theon down where he stood.

[Nukelavee]

I finally realized Ladywhiskers refers to Tommon's kitten.  -blush-

Roose is more than smart enough to spin "Arya's" escape into a kidnapping (although I don't know if he will).

Arya=Legitimacy for a ruler of the North.  That's hugely valuable.  People know Theon didn't do it alone, and it's pretty clear Stannis' Umber boys got them clear.

That cleans up the "but how could Theon manage it?" - he had help.

Also, without Arya, Ramsay is a huge target, because killing him means Arya is free to be married off, again.  And if she is carrying a l'il snowball, that kid is heir to Dreadfort, no matter who she ends up with.

A Bolton dynasty requires Arya.

[ElizaMartell]

Kurhill, on 08 February 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

First of all they can hear how Ramsay treats her, it's also implied that they know that it's not even Arya. My point applied to the conflict between Stannis and the Boltons. We all know that if it was Robb or Ned then northern lords would jump the sinking Bolton ship as soon as they could, but a lot of people seem to think that most of them will betray Roose and join Stannis. Personally i find it doubtful for many reasons. Besides why would they think that Arya escaped and not that she was forcefully abducted?

Oh I dunno....because of how Ramsay treated her?

[Ramsay Gimp]

We, the readers, know how bad he treated Jeyne. The Northmen just have a vague idea. You guys think that seeing her crying around the castle is going to sway them in the ongoing power struggle? These are hard men. They don't like it, I'm sure, but they aren't going to risk their asses gettin' flayed because "Arya" doesn't like her husband. They'll be making calculations based on the political winds

With the wildlings and Theon involved, Roose has many ways he can spin this. If I were in Winterfell, I would doubt very much that Arya Stark would willingly run off with the man who murdered her brothers in cold blood.

[Lord Damian]

I do think Roose is fearful of the old Gods, that is why he will not "directly" kill Ramsay, however, his hope is probably to have Ramsay impregnate fake Arya (Jeyne Poole) and Ramsay meet some tragic death. That way he gets rid of the baggage son, has a Bolton/Stark heir to keep the North happy and raise some kids with Walda to keep the Frey allies happy. However, the freys would like to have a Bolton/Frey heir over the North rather than a Stark/Bolton. The story will probably be resolved before either scenario plays out but none of the characters knows that. Heh, Heh.

[ElizaMartell]

Lord Damian, on 08 February 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

I do think Roose is fearful of the old Gods, that is why he will not "directly" kill Ramsay, however, his hope is probably to have Ramsay impregnate fake Arya (Jeyne Poole) and Ramsay meet some tragic death. That way he gets rid of the baggage son, has a Bolton/Stark heir to keep the North happy and raise some kids with Walda to keep the Frey allies happy. However, the freys would like to have a Bolton/Frey heir over the North rather than a Stark/Bolton. The story will probably be resolved before either scenario plays out but none of the characters knows that. Heh, Heh.

So what do you think he'd do in reaction to Arya's disappearance? How secure do you think the Freys are in the North?

Ramsay Gimp, on 08 February 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

With the wildlings and Theon involved, Roose has many ways he can spin this. If I were in Winterfell, I would doubt very much that Arya Stark would willingly run off with the man who murdered her brothers in cold blood.

But it was enough for this same man to give her away at her wedding?

Edited by ElizaMartell, 08 February 2012 - 08:29 PM.